NWA: interim contract proposed: 24% pay cuts now

[iaflyer]

From the Detroit Free Press

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Leaders of the pilots union at Northwest Airlines on Thursday endorsed an interim contract that would slash hourly pay rates by 23.9 percent and eliminate premiums for international flying.

The pay cut would come on top of a 15 percent wage reduction that took effect last year. Pilots will start voting next week on the tentative pact, which, if approved, would save Northwest about $215 million each year.
The Air Line Pilots Association executive committee voted 8-2 to recommend the concessions to its members.

Hal Myers, a spokesman for ALPA, said the goal of the deal is to give the union more time to negotiate a long-term contract.
On Wednesday, Northwest said it wants the pilots, flight attendants and ground workers unions to accept 60 percent of the permanent concessions the airline is seeking from each group by mid-November.

If the unions meet the terms, the airline said it would defer plans to ask a bankruptcy judge Nov. 16 to cancel labor contracts.

Leaders of the Professional Flight Attendants Association have agreed to accept $117 million in temporary concessions. Northwest is seeking $190 million in permanent cost savings from the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers and wants the union's leaders to endorse $114 million in temporary cutbacks.

Last year, pilots agreed to concessions that are saving the company $250 million annually. Northwest wants to reduce its labor costs by $1.4 billion and expects pilots to provide $612 million in savings.

Northwest pilots earn $35,000 to $206,000, depending on seniority and the planes they fly.

 

[LoweringTheBar]

That sucks. This is NOT what I signed up for!

 

['72Gremlin]

This whole Northwest pay scale is beyond me. First of all, I don't understand why a 747 CA makes twice that of a DC-9 CA, and under mngmts proposal, the DC-9 will take a bigger hit in pay than that 747 CA. Why is it like that? I understand that a 747 has 4 times the capacity of a DC-9, but is that the only reason? Is there any effort to bring the two extremes closer together (pay-wise)? All this just boggles my mind. Forgive my ignorance... I'm on the outside looking in. Someone please enlighten me.

 

[NTS ALL 4]

[quote='72Gremlin]This whole Northwest pay scale is beyond me. First of all, I don't understand why a 747 CA makes twice that of a DC-9 CA, and under mngmts proposal, the DC-9 will take a bigger hit in pay than that 747 CA. Why is it like that? I understand that a 747 has 4 times the capacity of a DC-9, but is that the only reason? Is there any effort to bring the two extremes closer together (pay-wise)? All this just boggles my mind. Forgive my ignorance... I'm on the outside looking in. Someone please enlighten me.[/quote]

Enlightening is about to begin...you already answered part of your question about the difference between B747 and its capacity compared to the DC9. Enlightening part 2: the DC9 has the same capacity of a regional jet and will be paid like a regional jet captain.

Understand now! NWA management is looking to adjust/slash the salaries in line with other pilot groups in the same boat.

 

[Diesel-9]

Paycut is equal to all positions. For 78 years or more, airline pay is based on many things like lift, range, speed, revenue generated etc.... Been that way forever and is negotiated. This interim agreement gives us into mid January to work out other non-pay items instead of being rushed into the mid-nov deadline and threat of a court imposed contract. Management dropped their demand to cut sick leave cap to 850 hours with no grandfather. Stays at 1200 max which I think is industry best. Gives you almost 18 months pay on a long term sick.

 

[1IDBLKJEW]

What a bunch of <edit>. I hope the pilots get to vote on that turd of a TA. If that gets voted in i will have lost all respect for the entire upper half of the seniority list over there. I wonder if that was Duanes idea.

23% pay cut and it only saves the company 215 mil a year, that shows you that it is worthless and pointless for them to sign that. That is chump change that they squander every month to try to stomp out a competitor like Midwest or Suncountry, which is a complete joke anyways.

At least Delta pilots went right to the strike vote. I hope they hold out and shut them down. Then maybe I would have some respect for ALPA

Good luck to us all.

 

[whymeworry?]

Another MEC folds in the face of adversity.

After AQ pilots signed their SECOND concession, management PROMISED they would never seek to file an 1113. In fact, the AQ pilots got that agreement IN WRITING! Last week, AQ management filed 1113 and asked the court to cancel the entire CBA. This is from a company that IS making money and has a FULLY FUNDED pension.

The agreements managements sign these days aren't worth much. Furlough clauses are violated with impunity, entire contracts are sought to be cancelled. I understsand that the NW ALPA MEC wishes to end the pain early and get the process behind them but how can they possibly believe that management will no longer seek 1113? Are you kidding me? NWALPA MEC, don't be so naive!

UAL MEC folded, USAir MEC folded, AQ MEC folded (during first two concessions) as did many others. Thus far only the Delta MEC is showing signs of finally stepping up to the plate and telling management to look elsewhere for their financial windfall. They already took a 32% paycut. Enough is enough. All of us were expecting the NW MEC to stand up to mgmt as well.... it appears through their endorsement that this will not be the case.

 

[whymeworry?]

Another MEC folds in the face of adversity.

After AQ pilots signed their SECOND concession, management PROMISED they would never seek to file an 1113. In fact, the AQ pilots got that agreement IN WRITING! Last week, AQ management filed 1113 and asked the court to cancel the entire CBA. This is from a company that IS making money and has a FULLY FUNDED pension.

The agreements managements sign these days aren't worth much. Furlough clauses are violated with impunity, entire contracts are sought to be cancelled. I understsand that the NW ALPA MEC wishes to end the pain early and get the process behind them but how can they possibly believe that management will no longer seek 1113? Are you kidding me? NWALPA MEC, don't be so naive!

UAL MEC folded, USAir MEC folded, AQ MEC folded (during first two concessions) as did many others. Thus far only the Delta MEC is showing signs of finally stepping up to the plate and telling management to look elsewhere for their financial windfall. They already took a 32% paycut. Enough is enough. All of us were expecting the NW MEC to stand up to mgmt as well.... it appears through their endorsement that this will not be the case.

 

[Schwanker]

[quote='72Gremlin]This whole Northwest pay scale is beyond me. First of all, I don't understand why a 747 CA makes twice that of a DC-9 CA, and under mngmts proposal, the DC-9 will take a bigger hit in pay than that 747 CA. Why is it like that? I understand that a 747 has 4 times the capacity of a DC-9, but is that the only reason? Is there any effort to bring the two extremes closer together (pay-wise)? All this just boggles my mind. Forgive my ignorance... I'm on the outside looking in. Someone please enlighten me.[/quote]

Gremlin: Mgt simply went out and found the lowest competitor pay for each category. They matched 747-400 pay with United, 757 pay with ???, A320 pay with Jet-Blue, DC-9 with 100 seat regional...

I can't remember which company they proposed with each aircraft type, but the Union previously provided all this info to the pilot group. I'm just too lazy this morning to go look it all up.

This is why Mgt's proposal isn't an equal % paycuts across the board. Obviously, it pissed off quite a few folks in aircraft types who had higher % cuts...ie DC-9 vs. 747-400 folks. For a TA to pass, Mgt's proposal will be smoothed making rate reductions equal (or nearly equal) across all fleet types.

 

[320AV8R]

[quote='72Gremlin]This whole Northwest pay scale is beyond me. First of all, I don't understand why a 747 CA makes twice that of a DC-9 CA, and under mngmts proposal, the DC-9 will take a bigger hit in pay than that 747 CA. Why is it like that? I understand that a 747 has 4 times the capacity of a DC-9, but is that the only reason? Is there any effort to bring the two extremes closer together (pay-wise)? All this just boggles my mind. Forgive my ignorance... I'm on the outside looking in. Someone please enlighten me.[/quote]

72-

It's based on an ALPA pay formula that involves aircraft weight, thrust, range, speed, engines, color it's painted, number of gay F/As, etc.........

Other non-ALPA carriers, like UPS, use a more basic pay scale.....I.E. a 10 year F/O makes $XX, irregardless of what aircraft is flown.

320AV8R

 

['72Gremlin]

72-

It's based on an ALPA pay formula that involves aircraft weight, thrust, range, speed, engines, color it's painted, number of gay F/As, etc.........

Other non-ALPA carriers, like UPS, use a more basic pay scale.....I.E. a 10 year F/O makes $XX, irregardless of what aircraft is flown.

320AV8R

Thanks, all, for the "enlightenment." I still don't know why it HAS to be this complex... I guess that's what you get when you join ALPA. I'm in favor of the simpler pay scale that the IPA has at UPS... once again, an outsider looking in. My hopes and thoughts for the ones fighting this battle.... good luck... we're all counting on you.

 

[Schwanker]

Sorry Gremlin-

To help clarify the "enlightenment process," I really only answered the second part of your question. Why management's proposal had larger % cuts for DC-9s vs. 747-400s.

320Av8r addressed how the current pay rates were established. In reality, the equation's (based on weight, range, pax, payload, speed...) were reversed engineered to come up with a negotiated rate. Not as complicated as it sounds, but confusing enough to make one ask WTF.

 

[drag]

Enlightening is about to begin...you already answered part of your question about the difference between B747 and its capacity compared to the DC9. Enlightening part 2: the DC9 has the same capacity of a regional jet and will be paid like a regional jet captain.

How's this for enlightenment. Capacity between the 747 and DC9 have nothing to do with payscales. 6 legs a day on a DC9 carries more capacity than a 1 leg 747. The only reason for higher pay on the 747 is because the senior pilots that run the union and negotiate contracts tend to fly the larger equipment......more days off per month. If you really believe that pay is determined by gross weight/revenue than 1) you're new to this business, or 2) you've been seriously brainwashed by the union machine.

 

[100LL... Again!]

If you really believe that pay is determined by gross weight/revenue than 1) you're new to this business, or 2) you've been seriously brainwashed by the union machine.

Amen. The senior guys will make sure they are well taken care of. The junior guys can just lump it.

 

[320AV8R]

If you really believe that pay is determined by gross weight/revenue than 1) you're new to this business, or 2) you've been seriously brainwashed by the union machine.

Drag-

A lot of us are not new, nor brainwashed. It's an ALPA thing: it's spelled out in the contract.

320AV8R

 

[michael707767]

How's this for enlightenment. Capacity between the 747 and DC9 have nothing to do with payscales. 6 legs a day on a DC9 carries more capacity than a 1 leg 747.

actually, you are wrong. First of all, in this industry revenue and costs are measured per seat mile. A DC-9 flying six legs out and back from DTW will still not produce as many seat miles as a 747 flying from DTW-NRT. Add to that, even though you carry many people during the day, you still only have the opportunity to kill 100 or so if you crash, vs the 300 or more that a 747 pilot could kill in a crash.

 

[xjlifer]

actually, you are wrong. First of all, in this industry revenue and costs are measured per seat mile. A DC-9 flying six legs out and back from DTW will still not produce as many seat miles as a 747 flying from DTW-NRT. Add to that, even though you carry many people during the day, you still only have the opportunity to kill 100 or so if you crash, vs the 300 or more that a 747 pilot could kill in a crash.

So your paid on the opportunity to kill people?

 

[drag]

So your paid on the opportunity to kill people?

I never said that. But now that it's brought up....never mind. By the way, maybe NWA 747 pilots should take the biggest cuts. After all, the 747 may generate the most revenue but it also bleeds the most. Maybe that's why Mirana and Goodyear AZ are full of them. Lets not forget Victorville, CA too.

 

[OUT]

I hope they don't get rid of the 747s. They are one of the last airlines flying them here and i want to fly one someday.

 

[GoABX]

If I don't have to fly with gay F/A's should my hourly rate be higher or lower?

Has there been any rumor relating to NWA Cargo? Selling, spinning off, etc. What is its profitability relative to mainline. If it were separated what percentage of whale pilots would follow cargo?