NWA/DAL what's the sentiment?

[800Dog]

I'm leaning no also. Way too much left behind. Little if any cost. R.A. needs this deal fast. We have leverage. He is running out of time and cash. We are holding a full house and he has a pair of 3's. Fights on!

With you. Voting no as the duration is too long and SLI is unsettled. Always in the minority at DAL though!

 

[Diesel-9]

Have you guys ever tried to get positive space for a green slip? Think that would be easy to get. Would make some of your guys who are against our 10.5 day jumpseat booking policy feel better.

 

[ugasucks]

I got rerouted 4 times on my last trip and juior manned at the end for a round trip. But I did get paid assignment pay for the junior man, but it still sucked. gotta love the 88.

 

[NuGuy]

I can't really comment on the rest of it, but trust me when I tell you that NavTech's CLASS is the only decent PBS product out there. Our guys love it, and a lot of that is because we (Delta, DALPA) have partnered with NavTech to make an already good product better.

With CLASS, there is no "globalization" (translation: a violation of a senior pilot's seniority so as to create more lines for junior guys) no "points" and best of all, there is a reasons report that details every one of your bid preferences and exactly why you did or did not get what you wanted.

It is a great system and after the learning curve I think you will enjoy it.

CLASS is what NWA left 5 years ago. NWA actually owned CLASS at one point, but moved on.

Our new system has those features and more.

It was a huge leap forward. Going back to CLASS is 3 steps backwards.

Not impressed.

Nu

 

[JohnQ]

Our PBS software (Carmen) is 4 generations past what CLASSbid is. We were using that back in 1998 when NWA was writing the book on PBS, with over 98% bid satisfaction.

We looked closely at CARMEN. Our flight attendants have it. They hate it. It is a nightmare. It is full of "globalization," ridiculous points algorithms, etc. It takes days to get a result, and after all that time, the one and only result is presented for you to take it and like it.

That is not how we use CLASS at DAL. It may be simpler, but it is more effective for the pilot group and absolutely honors seniority.

I had a former CAL guy (now DAL) tell me that CLASS was vastly superior to CARMEN in the interface and most importantly, the results. He was always getting preferences denied due to "globalization" (i.e. "sorry, you are indeed senior enough to be awarded this trip, and it is indeed available; however, you don't get it so a pilot 100 numbers junior to you in the category can get a regular line"). That never happens with CLASS. We (ALPA) won't allow it.

After the company does a bid run, it goes to ALPA for oversight. We frequently reject the bid runs and send it back. The company then tweaks some parameters and runs it again.

Bottom line: no bid run is ever released to a category without ALPA signing off on it first.

Also, things have changed with CLASS since ten years ago. You may be pleasantly surprised with the product we now have.

 

[rf285]

Carmen stinks! I was CAL before DAL and there is absolutely no comparison in ease of use or results....

 

[123]

What is the cutoff date to retire under the NWA plan? Is it the DCC? When is the equity payout determined as far as having to be on the property? Heard a few people say they have heard there are 350+ people with their retirement papers on their desk at home waiting to see what happens before punching. Hope it is true. Nice to dream about it.

You mean like the 500 or so that were going to retire early after our last contract.

 

[NuGuy]

We looked closely at CARMEN. Our flight attendants have it. They hate it. It is a nightmare. It is full of "globalization," ridiculous points algorithms, etc. It takes days to get a result, and after all that time, the one and only result is presented for you to take it and like it.

That is not how we use CLASS at DAL. It may be simpler, but it is more effective for the pilot group and absolutely honors seniority.

I had a former CAL guy (now DAL) tell me that CLASS was vastly superior to CARMEN in the interface and most importantly, the results. He was always getting preferences denied due to "globalization" (i.e. "sorry, you are indeed senior enough to be awarded this trip, and it is indeed available; however, you don't get it so a pilot 100 numbers junior to you in the category can get a regular line"). That never happens with CLASS. We (ALPA) won't allow it.

After the company does a bid run, it goes to ALPA for oversight. We frequently reject the bid runs and send it back. The company then tweaks some parameters and runs it again.

Bottom line: no bid run is ever released to a category without ALPA signing off on it first.

Also, things have changed with CLASS since ten years ago. You may be pleasantly surprised with the product we now have.

That is nothing like how Carmen operates at NWA.

There are no "points", only avoids and awards. There is no "globalization" if you request a trip specifically, and even if you don't you can lock your bid award in by a "no shuffle" command.

Bids close on the 12th, and are out usually by the 14th-15th.

Our CBC also oversees the bidding process and will send runs back if they stink.

Nu

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

That is nothing like how Carmen operates at NWA.

There are no "points", only avoids and awards. There is no "globalization" if you request a trip specifically, and even if you don't you can lock your bid award in by a "no shuffle" command.

Bids close on the 12th, and are out usually by the 14th-15th.

Our CBC also oversees the bidding process and will send runs back if they stink.

Nu

That sounds identical to CLASS.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Passes by over 80% at NWA.

By over 65% at DAL.

No brainer.

Go to a Roadshow. Listen to the words. Look at the charts. About a third of the way into the presentation, you'll begin to see why both MEC's passed this thing unanimously.

NuGuy will vote for this. I'll sit behind him at the MSP Roadshow and youtube his reaction to the "What Happens If It Fails?" section.

Think people! The points you're bringing up were chewed through by both MEC's...and they voted for this.

Why?

 

[General Lee]

Heyas,

It looks like that DAL has junior manning, or inverse assignement or whatever they want to call it.

I had to deal with junior manning at my last regional, and I have no desire to deal with it again. It can make your life a living hell, no matter how they try to compensate you. They ALWAYS call/ACARS/find you at the gate on the one day you had something planned.

I just slipped into the no column. DAL contract better? Pfftt...maybe in payrates, but everything else is par or below.

Nu

Very rarely do we "inverse assign." It does happen during bad weather etc, but usually greenslips are awarded. They pay double for line holders, and add to the cap if you get inverse assigned as a reserve. If you answer your phone at home often, you might get one. I have heard they are trying to use a computerized device to call your home and "offer" you an inverse assignment, but apparently they haven't perfected it yet. Not a big deal. They can get you in the plane on ACARS though, but again, that doesn't happen often. In addition to the greenslip, you can put in for a greenslip with conflict, which will pay you double for the trip they are giving you, plus the trip that you were going to fly (not double on that one). I once got one and was paid 66 hours for a 4 day greenslip with conflict.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[hockeypilot44]

I hate change. Can we keep things the same?

 

[NuGuy]

I hate change. Can we keep things the same?

Only by changing more....

Nu

 

[Noserider76]

JS:
10.5 days ahead >>> than what DL has, PLUS we can book it on the internet, and have it done with 3rd party software unattended.

Call-in-honest policy is better as well.

Nu

What you have to remember is that NW is a mostly commuter group (70%?) and DL is not. You effectively give super seniority to a commuter by giving him positive space if he misses his flight and further erode our already very hard to use non-rev priviledges. The same can be said for positive space for green slip. I've been on both sides but when you write the rules to favor the commuter you generally take away from those that don't. There may be a lot more commuters when this mess is finally settled but now non-commuters are the vast majority here.

You seem to put an enormous value on booking the jumpseat 10.5 days out. I'm not really sure what the value of booking so far in advance is. Pilots going to work can still book it ahead of those coming home and those on personal time.

 

[Superpilot92]

Passes by over 80% at NWA.

By over 65% at DAL.

No brainer.

Go to a Roadshow. Listen to the words. Look at the charts. About a third of the way into the presentation, you'll begin to see why both MEC's passed this thing unanimously.

NuGuy will vote for this. I'll sit behind him at the MSP Roadshow and youtube his reaction to the "What Happens If It Fails?" section.

Think people! The points you're bringing up were chewed through by both MEC's...and they voted for this.

Why?

Agreed, Both MECs looked at every aspect of this and they do have all the facts, which we dont, yet.

The roadshows should answer everyones questions.

 

[JohnQ]

That is nothing like how Carmen operates at NWA.

There are no "points", only avoids and awards. There is no "globalization" if you request a trip specifically, and even if you don't you can lock your bid award in by a "no shuffle" command.

Bids close on the 12th, and are out usually by the 14th-15th.

Our CBC also oversees the bidding process and will send runs back if they stink.Nu

Well that looks just like how it is done at DAL, including the bid closing and award timelines (caveat: awards do not have to be posted until the 17th; usually they are ready far earlier than that but in some holiday months it can take as long as that in some categories). Seriously, it looks like you (NWA ALPA) did a good job with CARMEN, especially compared with others--like our FAs.

Again, CLASS has changed a lot in ten years and you may be pleasantly surprised. We have made a lot of improvements just in the past couple of years, and we still have a few upgrades pending as well. Last, I strongly recommend that you keep a close eye on it and get involved in the new joint scheduling environment. It is obvious that you care about this, and more and better contributions from all pilots can only be good.

Take care.

 

[Diesel-9]

What you have to remember is that NW is a mostly commuter group (70%?) and DL is not. You effectively give super seniority to a commuter by giving him positive space if he misses his flight and further erode our already very hard to use non-rev priviledges. The same can be said for positive space for green slip. I've been on both sides but when you write the rules to favor the commuter you generally take away from those that don't. There may be a lot more commuters when this mess is finally settled but now non-commuters are the vast majority here.

Living in DFW, you guys have a ton of commuters here for SLC and ATL. Quite a few have asked me about our jumpseat and pass policy and would love to go to it. Read on another post here your JFK and ATL bases have huge amounts of commuters. With all the base closings recently bet the numbers are closer than most would guess. With the movement of aircraft bases coming soon, less capacity and even higher load factors, it is going to get even tighter trying to get to work. It is nice to know 9-10 days out you have a seat to get to work. I couldn't imagine going to 3 days out from a trip and not knowing if and when I might get there or have to go a day early. The 10 day out/positive space backup works very well. Did anyone read that DAL accepted the positive space to training. Is it true you didn't have that?

 

[andyd]

Is it true you didn't have that?

Not true, we can currently list positive space company business to and from training, as well as to/from home while in training during all breaks over 48 hours.

 

[Diesel-9]

Figured that had to be true. Another post on here said that was something new with one of the recent L.O.A.'s or agreements.

 

[JohnQ]

Figured that had to be true. Another post on here said that was something new with one of the recent L.O.A.'s or agreements.

I believe the "new" PS space for training addition was for PS on Pinnacle. I don't believe we (DAL) get PS on our commuter carriers, only mainline. I could be wrong, however.

One more thing. In the past DAL always had a punitive "no one forces you to commute" policy that was ridiculous. Two examples:

1. You were only given a hotel for training "away from your domicile" for ANY training. Therefore if you were an ATL commuter and were going to ATL for 5-6 weeks of training on a new aircraft...it was crashpad time for you! Ridiculous.

2. The same applied to PS seats to training "away from domicile." So if you were a CVG pilot going to training in ATL, you got a PS seat, but if you were ATL-based but commuting from elsewhere and going to training, you had to non-rev/jumpseat.

However over the years we have actually got some in the mgmt (and ALPA) side with a clue and acknowledged the reality that we have and always will have large numbers of commuters, partially due to the fact that we have closed so many former bases. So given that, here are the new and better rules (compared to years ago).

1. If you are going to training at your base (ex. an ATL-based FL commuter) you WILL get PS to it regardless of the training type.

2. In the above example, you will still not get a paid hotel for recurrent training at your base, but that never last more than three days, so most guys eat it (and of course if you are going to recurrent training "away" from your base you still get the hotel).

3. For all qualification training (i.e. anything other than annual recurrent) you will get a hotel even if the training is at your base. Having been a commuter (and even non-commuter who lives an hour from the airport) who has not gotten a hotel in the past when going from 727 SO to M88 FO and had to pay for a crappy crashpad, I cannot tell you how much better this provision is. It is great.

Long-winded enough?