NWA/DAL negotiations update

[FDJ2]

I do not understand why NWA pilots did not eagerly accept relative seniority. Can someone explain the "other side" to me?

Sounds arrogant doesn't it? They must think they are better than us and deserve more.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

for the TWA pilots while making eyes at the APA.

And now you've the Feds involved due to the atrocities that AA and it's unions committed against the TWA folk.



stlflyguy

Are you kidding? You need to stop using USA Today as your only source of news. Had AA not taken over TWA, TWA would have been nothing more than a post-9/11 memory slowy parted out piecemeal on ebay.

 

[General Lee]

Sounds arrogant doesn't it? They must think they are better than us and deserve more.

Well, a lot of them are better pilots.....they fly with round dials and guess which way the wind is blowing, and then fly a heading! Isn't that CRAZY! I just use the magic box and it takes me there.... They have to guess or even ask for help..... Those are flying skills you CANNOT erase....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Sounds arrogant doesn't it? They must think they are better than us and deserve more.

It may be the realization that they can easily be crazier, less rational and more combatant than the Delta pilots. Sometimes the child that screams the loudest gets the candy bar.

They demanded the goodies without the SLI. Appears they are going to get Moak's goodies, then try to knock a home run against Moak's team in the SLI games.

 

[Superpilot92]

'eh, no. Not even close.

$50 v/s $30 now. $81 v/s $58 in a few months 0 to 5% v/s 11% just between mi amigo and me. 40% v/s "nothing I aint already got" isn't "the same level."

You're welcome for our negotiating capital. Now come and get our seniority.

Now I better run along, eat some grass and be a good sheeple. Sorry Occam, baa'aa baa'aa, this sure is yummy grass....

Bottom line, I have confidence in both MEC's and I'm a grass eater. But, at least be honest - this is a heck of a windfall for you.

I am not going to try and argue my points because honestly we are going to see it differently. In my opinion i would have been happy as hell to stay a stand alone carrier at my pay nwa payscales for the time being then merge but thats not reality anymore. To try and argue my/your points has now become irrelevant because we have already argued them over and over. Like i have told you before both or our MECs are full of smart people who KNOW all the facts unlike the FI source. Why are you being so dramatic all of a sudden? Are you done with training and waiting on OE? Congrats on being done!

 

[NuGuy]

It may be the realization that they can easily be crazier, less rational and more combatant than the Delta pilots. Sometimes the child that screams the loudest gets the candy bar.

They demanded the goodies without the SLI. Appears they are going to get Moak's goodies, then try to knock a home run against Moak's team in the SLI games.

So Fins,

I'm going to ask you the same thing here as I did in the other thread:

1) Is it your position that the contract and the SLI be linked? If so, why?

2) If the SLI is NOT part of the joint contract, why do you feel this is a bad thing?

From our perspective, everyone gets their pay raises why we work out what could be a lengthy process. The NWA guys have already been accused of costing DAL pilots money...do you want that to continue? Do you want one side or the other to hold the whole thing hostage like the AWA/AAA deal?

From the sounds of it, you seem uncertain your side could prevail in negotiations or arbitration. That's quite a switch in positions.

The deal is getting done, and a GOOD joint agreement (better than LOA 19) between DAL and NWA pilots exists. Why the complaints?

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

Heyas Nu:

I'll try to be consistent in my answers:

1) I think the answer is yes, they ARE linked. We will only know for sure when we see the language. But the joint contract will most likely have language that preempts our options to defend an SLI award.

2) See above.

Pointing out that the NWA pilots are getting exactly what they wanted in February is just pointing out the obvious; your side won. The Delta side helped you - proving it was never LOA 19's intent to lock your side out.

It is too early to know, but it seems that analysis of previous arbitration awards has convinced many Delta pilots that arbitration might provide a better outcome than what was on the table. I dunno - from where I sit everything will hinge on how displacements are handled.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas Nu:

I'll try to be consistent in my answers:

1) I think the answer is yes, they ARE linked. We will only know for sure when we see the language. But the joint contract will most likely have language that preempts our options to defend an SLI award.

Heyas Fins,

Um, you didn't answer my question. My bad...let me re-phrase:

Why do you THINK they should be linked?

Opinons are ok...I won't bite...

Nu

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nu:

I don't have an opinion. I like the idea of parity / equality ASAP.

 

[Superpilot92]

Nu:

I don't have an opinion. I like the idea of parity / equality ASAP.

I think he was implying Your previous comments make it look like you want the above ^^^^^ as long as you get the SLI included in the deal. That makes it appear that you want it that way so you can continue the strongarm unstead of take it one step at a time making it as equal and "Fair" as possible.

 

[Noserider76]

Heyas Fins,

Um, you didn't answer my question. My bad...let me re-phrase:

Why do you THINK they should be linked?

Opinons are ok...I won't bite...

Nu

Not directed at me but why do you think they shouldn't? I would like to see the total package before any vote and make an informed decision on how it might affect my career earnings. Your side should be able to do the same.

 

[Fly4hire]

Heyas Nu:

I'll try to be consistent in my answers:

1) I think the answer is yes, they ARE linked. We will only know for sure when we see the language. But the joint contract will most likely have language that preempts our options to defend an SLI award.

Pointing out that the NWA pilots are getting exactly what they wanted in February is just pointing out the obvious; your side won. The Delta side helped you - proving it was never LOA 19's intent to lock your side out.

Except that if DAL Management stalls on the deal and insists on harmonization we can assume it's a coordinated plan with Moak.

If it does go and Moak insists on SLI quids for contract enhancements we are right back to the February impasse and he'll be forcing it to arbitration, which might be the plan since he is not going to be able to deliver the SLI he's promised.

 

[NuGuy]

Not directed at me but why do you think they shouldn't? I would like to see the total package before any vote and make an informed decision on how it might affect my career earnings. Your side should be able to do the same.

Quite simple, actually:

Contract gains can be wisked away in a blink.

Seniority is forever.

None of us will get to vote on the SLI. That will fall to the merger committees.

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

Quite simple, actually:

Contract gains can be wisked away in a blink.

Seniority is forever.

None of us will get to vote on the SLI. That will fall to the merger committees.

Nu

Exactly, especially in today's economic status.

 

[Noserider76]

Quite simple, actually:

Contract gains can be wisked away in a blink.

Seniority is forever.

None of us will get to vote on the SLI. That will fall to the merger committees.

Nu

I want to be able to vote on the complete package (SLI/contract) when I find out my position on the list as would have been the case with the previous non-deal. Or, I want a completed SLI (negotiated or arbitrated) before I decide whether a contract is acceptable to me for the next 4-5 years.

If, for example, you expected to upgrade shortly to 737 capt and are now looking at a greatly pushed back date to upgrade to a much lower paying DC-9 capt that would affect my vote. If the DC-9 paid MD-88 rates that would influence my decision another way. Without the SLI, it's not possible to make an informed decision on the contract. There's no reason for both sides to not to be able vote on the total package.

 

[Superpilot92]

I want to be able to vote on the complete package (SLI/contract) when I find out my position on the list as would have been the case with the previous non-deal. Or, I want a completed SLI (negotiated or arbitrated) before I decide whether a contract is acceptable to me for the next 4-5 years.

If, for example, you expected to upgrade shortly to 737 capt and are now looking at a greatly pushed back date to upgrade to a much lower paying DC-9 capt that would affect my vote. If the DC-9 paid MD-88 rates that would influence my decision another way. Without the SLI, it's not possible to make an informed decision on the contract. There's no reason for both sides to not to be able vote on the total package.

Sure there is because DALPA signed LOA 19 so if we dont figure out the SLI then you are covered and we are not. The SLI will more than likely go to arbitration anyway so we should get the joint contract taken care of to protect all of our interests equally. We wont be voting on the SLI either way.

 

[Noserider76]

Sure there is because DALPA signed LOA 19 so if we dont figure out the SLI then you are covered and we are not. The SLI will more than likely go to arbitration anyway so we should get the joint contract taken care of to protect all of our interests equally. We wont be voting on the SLI either way.

My hope was that you would negotiate your own LOA 19 instead of rushing the entire group into a 4-5 year contract in these industry conditions.

 

[Superpilot92]

My hope was that you would negotiate your own LOA 19 instead of rushing the entire group into a 4-5 year contract in these industry conditions.

And who would we negotiate that with? Also why would we do that and further divide what needs to be 1 large solid pilot group. 2 working agreements within 1 company does nothing but pin us further against each other allowing mgmt to whipsaw. Whats best for BOTH groups in the long run is 1 contract 1 list.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Watch Out Today Guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1600973#post1600973 <---This is who is dealing with your MEC TODAY!

 

[Noserider76]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1600973#post1600973 <---This is who is dealing with your MEC TODAY!

OMG, the MECs meeting with the HR VP? I'm sure they're scared to death.

 

[Schwanker]

My hope was that you would negotiate your own LOA 19 instead of rushing the entire group into a 4-5 year contract in these industry conditions.

This naive position is the problem. Management loves divide and conquer techniques. If DALPA didn't let greed get in the way, both pilot groups could have negotiated a joint contract utilizing max leverage. This coupled leverage would have helped seal in scope gains and job protections. Instead DALPA choose to exclude the NWA pilots and lay in bed with management via LOA 19. This allowed management to neutralize most the leverage DALPA brought to the table. It will be interesting how this plays out, but a golden opportunity was missed. It could turn real ugly real fast.
Schwanker

 

[Noserider76]

This naive position is the problem. Management loves divide and conquer techniques. If DALPA didn't let greed get in the way, both pilot groups could have negotiated a joint contract utilizing max leverage. This coupled leverage would have helped seal in scope gains and job protections. Instead DALPA choose to exclude the NWA pilots and lay in bed with management via LOA 19. This allowed management to neutralize most the leverage DALPA brought to the table. It will be interesting how this plays out, but a golden opportunity was missed. It could turn real ugly real fast.
Schwanker

Hey, another BS angry "it could turn ugly real fast" post from the master. I could care less whether you turn it ugly at NWA. Have at it.

You say DALPA chose to get in bed with management and exclude the NWA pilots, I say you had plenty of opportunity to capitalize on the leverage brought by the DL pilots, and chose to make yourselves irrelevent, costing us all money in the process.

You say DALPA let greed get in the way. Delta pilots have very little to gain here as the lion's share of the contract improvements will go to your side. We were set to open Sec 6 next winter. Most likely a much better time than now. I say it was NWALPAs greed during the SLI negotiations that cost us all.

The mistake was thinking that we should be one big happy unified family from the onset. Your side made it clear from the beginning that they were out for the maximum they could get for their side and set the stage. Now you want to ride the coat tails of the DL pilots all the way to the bank and threaten us every step of the way. I got news for you. We're not going to be one big family until we battle it out for a single list, and we're not going to be a happy family until many, many years down the road. One of many reasons I was against this merger from the beginning.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

"JUST" HR??? Yeahhhhhh

OMG, the MECs meeting with the HR VP? I'm sure they're scared to death.

You missed the point...(or are choosing to skip over it for the benefit of those who may not know)... Delta's EVP of HR (a title they give him to make it seem innocuous), Mike Campbell, is one of the founding members of ANTI=Pilot UNION BUSTING law firm Ford & Harrison (for those who want to know more see appropriately titled thread).

If you or any other DL guys believe he is on your side, guess again...you are simply pawns for step 2 of whatever nightmare he has in store once you've drunk the Kool-Aid, and least expect it. Pilots at CO and many other airlines and fracs can tell you a great deal about how he (and his firm) operate by playing "buddies".

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308 <--re: Mike Campbell

and Yahoo coverage:

"Thursday June 5, 12:01 pm ET
Delta executives plan to meet with Northwest pilots ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) -- Two high-ranking Delta Air Lines Inc. executives are expected to meet with Northwest pilots.Delta and Northwest Airlines Corp. are planning to combine, but want their pilots to agree to a deal, too.
The Northwest pilot's union say Delta President and Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian and Delta's head of human relations Mike Campbell will visit their union meeting later Thursday in St. Paul to make a presentation and answer questions. The meeting will be closed to the public and to pilots who are not on the union's Master Executive Council.
Northwest pilots have said they want raises to make their pay equal to Delta pilots. But Northwest pilots claim that Delta management wants to phase in the raises slowly.""

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

You missed the point...(or are choosing to skip over it for the benefit of those who may not know)... Delta's EVP of HR (a title they give him to make it seem innocuous), Mike Campbell, is one of the founding members of ANTI=Pilot UNION BUSTING law firm Ford & Harrison (for those who want to know more see appropriately titled thread).

If you or any other DL guys believe he is on your side, guess again...you are simply pawns for step 2 of whatever nightmare he has in store once you've drunk the Kool-Aid, and least expect it. Pilots at CO and many other airlines and fracs can tell you a great deal about how he (and his firm) operate by playing "buddies".

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=109308 <--re: Mike Campbell

and Yahoo coverage:

"Thursday June 5, 12:01 pm ET
Delta executives plan to meet with Northwest pilots ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) -- Two high-ranking Delta Air Lines Inc. executives are expected to meet with Northwest pilots.Delta and Northwest Airlines Corp. are planning to combine, but want their pilots to agree to a deal, too.
The Northwest pilot's union say Delta President and Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian and Delta's head of human relations Mike Campbell will visit their union meeting later Thursday in St. Paul to make a presentation and answer questions. The meeting will be closed to the public and to pilots who are not on the union's Master Executive Council.
Northwest pilots have said they want raises to make their pay equal to Delta pilots. But Northwest pilots claim that Delta management wants to phase in the raises slowly.""

Yeah..thanks. Got it. I wasn't sure about it because you hadn't already posted that 30 times already.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Yeah..thanks. Got it. I wasn't sure about it because you hadn't already posted that 30 times already.

It was for he benefit of the NW Mainline pilots, who many not be on here 24/7. My apologies that you erroneously thought it was for yours.

It is to every pilot's benefit however, to be reminded of the name Ford & Harrison, and what they are about. Congrats that you know...however many others don't and many new people stop by here every day. The only reason you would have a problem with it, is if you are one of the many screen names that Ford & Harrison lackeys are behind, attempting to further their cause.

Carry on.