NWA/DAL negotiations update

[clippyrip]

.......

 

[JAM-BRO]

Let me see if I got "your" highly likely logic.

What you are saying is that an arbitrator is going to arrange the seniority list by equipment and not by DOH. The bigger the equipment you fly, the more senior you should be. Am I right so far?

It was a reference to Arbitrator Nicolau's reasoning in Tigers/FedEx and Am West/US Air.

It is highly likely that the precedent of arbitrators crafting awards to maintain the status quo will remain the logic used in future awards.

 

[Sedona16]

Let me see if I got "your" highly likely logic.

What you are saying is that an arbitrator is going to arrange the seniority list by equipment and not by DOH. The bigger the equipment you fly, the more senior you should be. Am I right so far?

You are probably trying to stir the pot but I think what fins is suggesting is ratios based on equipment and what it takes to maintain status quo for both groups. If a new hire is flying a 767 to Europe it wont be fair to displace him to a DC9 out of Detroit then furlough him if his former company was bringing immediate (777, 737 which after losing some MD still is a net gain) flying and not losing it.

 

[JAM-BRO]

It would seem to me that if DAL new hires are flying 767's to Europe, then that flying must suck... There must be something about being the most junior of a crew of 3 or 4 over there that stinks. International flying is the easiest flying I have ever done. Here at NWA, international flying goes pretty senior.

Not trying to stir the pot. Integrating a seniority list has nothing to do with what you do with your seniority, ie what equip you bid. Seniority=time in the company...... Your argument is from someone who is junior. Guess what? Starting at the bottom has it's perils. Everyone knows that. If you are junior at DAL, you will be junior at the new DAL...

Status Quo... hmm... Fences maybe... Seat protections maybe.... That is about it. Senior pilots will be senior, Junior pilots will be junior no matter what they fly.

You are probably trying to stir the pot but I think what fins is suggesting is ratios based on equipment and what it takes to maintain status quo for both groups. If a new hire is flying a 767 to Europe it wont be fair to displace him to a DC9 out of Detroit then furlough him if his former company was bringing immediate (777, 737 which after losing some MD still is a net gain) flying and not losing it.

 

[Furloughed80]

Used MD-90s from Emirates; now there's a rumor you can count on.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

It would seem to me that if DAL new hires are flying 767's to Europe, then that flying must suck... There must be something about being the most junior of a crew of 3 or 4 over there that stinks. International flying is the easiest flying I have ever done. Here at NWA, international flying goes pretty senior.

Not trying to stir the pot. Integrating a seniority list has nothing to do with what you do with your seniority, ie what equip you bid. Seniority=time in the company...... Your argument is from someone who is junior. Guess what? Starting at the bottom has it's perils. Everyone knows that. If you are junior at DAL, you will be junior at the new DAL...

Status Quo... hmm... Fences maybe... Seat protections maybe.... That is about it. Senior pilots will be senior, Junior pilots will be junior no matter what they fly.

Well, don't work for either airline, but just to throw my $0.02 in; that is why I just still believe the easiest way to do any integration is simply, DOH (or rather LOS, length of service, doh adjusted for furlough, leaves, etc.) and just protect equip. positions/bases, pre-merger progression with 'fences'

Not permanent fences, and after the fences come down, enough movement has happened (retirements, etc), and everybody just ends up with whatever their 'seniority' holds, Capt. F/O, Int'l, widebody, etc.

If it was done that way with DL/NWA, entire SLI could be done in a few days, only thing that would take some debate is deciding on the 'fences' (c&s), conditions & restrictions, then DONE.

Still seems like the easiest way to do things, and probably why EVERY other union in this country (and the World for that matter), do it that way. Except pilots in this country???

Again, for what its worth.

PD

 

[JAM-BRO]

Yeap, that's what I am saying...

Well, don't work for either airline, but just to throw my $0.02 in; that is why I just still believe the easiest way to do any integration is simply, DOH (or rather LOS, length of service, doh adjusted for furlough, leaves, etc.) and just protect equip. positions/bases, pre-merger progression with 'fences'

Not permanent fences, and after the fences come down, enough movement has happened (retirements, etc), and everybody just ends up with whatever their 'seniority' holds, Capt. F/O, Int'l, widebody, etc.

If it was done that way with DL/NWA, entire SLI could be done in a few days, only thing that would take some debate is deciding on the 'fences' (c&s), conditions & restrictions, then DONE.

Still seems like the easiest way to do things, and probably why EVERY other union in this country (and the World for that matter), do it that way. Except pilots in this country???

Again, for what its worth.

PD

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Yeap, that's what I am saying...

Again, would solve Everything really easily, quickly and be done, FAIRLY.

Anything else, arguments about 'ratios/slotting' etc. will be very Very ugly, and drawn out.

alpa is part of the problem, but remember it was DAL alpa that got 'DOH' removed from alpa merger policy, just before the PanAm deal!!

Good luck to all the NWA guys, stay strong.

PD

 

[General Lee]

Used MD-90s from Emirates; now there's a rumor you can count on.

You mean Saudia. The smallest plane Emirates has is an A310 (cargo) and A330 for pax. Expect 20 or so from Saudia.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Again, would solve Everything really easily, quickly and be done, FAIRLY.

Anything else, arguments about 'ratios/slotting' etc. will be very Very ugly, and drawn out.

alpa is part of the problem, but remember it was DAL alpa that got 'DOH' removed from alpa merger policy, just before the PanAm deal!!

Good luck to all the NWA guys, stay strong.

PD

The longer they "stay strong", the more they will lose. Those DC9s and 742s will be the first to go.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

It would seem to me that if DAL new hires are flying 767's to Europe, then that flying must suck... There must be something about being the most junior of a crew of 3 or 4 over there that stinks. International flying is the easiest flying I have ever done. Here at NWA, international flying goes pretty senior.

Not trying to stir the pot. Integrating a seniority list has nothing to do with what you do with your seniority, ie what equip you bid. Seniority=time in the company...... Your argument is from someone who is junior. Guess what? Starting at the bottom has it's perils. Everyone knows that. If you are junior at DAL, you will be junior at the new DAL...

Status Quo... hmm... Fences maybe... Seat protections maybe.... That is about it. Senior pilots will be senior, Junior pilots will be junior no matter what they fly.

The flying is great. The problem is the reserve rules, and that affects about 50 in NYC I believe, and the same in ATL. The rest enjoy the flying. Also, some people don't want to go to NYC, even with a line----just like 99% of Delta pilots don't want to go to DTW. Maybe you like flying the DC9 to Dayton, the rest of us like Malaga, Spain layovers (NYC ER layover) and Venice, Italy (both ATL and NYC).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JAM-BRO]

Stick to the point.... What does the equip have anything to do with integrating a sen list? NOTHING.

On the other issue, you just answered my point. New hires are getting the 767 because it sucks. Blame it on resv rules, base, whatever, it sucks. To be junior at DAL on the 767 is not good. Just like being junior on the DC9 sucks.

The flying is great. The problem is the reserve rules, and that affects about 50 in NYC I believe, and the same in ATL. The rest enjoy the flying. Also, some people don't want to go to NYC, even with a line----just like 99% of Delta pilots don't want to go to DTW. Maybe you like flying the DC9 to Dayton, the rest of us like Malaga, Spain layovers (NYC ER layover) and Venice, Italy (both ATL and NYC).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Status Quo... hmm... Fences maybe... Seat protections maybe.... That is about it. Senior pilots will be senior, Junior pilots will be junior no matter what they fly.

International flying doesn't go more junior at DAL than NWA because it's not good flying, it's the same flying you have at NWA. It goes more junior because there is more international flying at DAL, more wide bodied and 757 flying and more upward advancement, which tends to open up more premium flying to more junior pilots. Also, there are just more high paying jobs at DAL to choose from. Delta brings 253 airframes that pay equivalent or more than the A330. That's over half the fleet. OTOH, less than 1/4 of NWA aircaft pay A330 rates or above.

You're about half right on how seniority is determined, but ALPA merger policy removed preserving DOH seniority from it's policy goals, but it did maintain pay as a consideration.

Someone who is relatively junior will remain relatively junior and someone who is relatively senior will remain relatively senior, with some adjustment for aircraft and pay.

ALPA merger policy favors a ratioed integration not based on your DOH, or what you hold, but by the jobs brought to the merger, and how much those jobs pay. Pay after all is in the merger policy, DOH isn't.

The integration will most likely result in some sort of slotting of international positions, with international positions, large gauge domestic positions with large gauge domestic, medium gauge with medium, and the DC-9 bringing up the rear.

 

[FDJ2]

Stick to the point.... What does the equip have anything to do with integrating a sen list? NOTHING.

Why did Nicolau give the AAA pilots the top 517 positions, even though they were the company in BK at the time of the merger?

Answer: EQUIPMENT

JAM-BRO, just because in your world you may not want to deal with the disparity in the differences in equipment and the difference in the equity value of the positions brought to the merger, doesn't mean that an arbitrator will ignore the fact that it is a part of ALPA merger policy and DOH is not.

 

[General Lee]

Stick to the point.... What does the equip have anything to do with integrating a sen list? NOTHING.

On the other issue, you just answered my point. New hires are getting the 767 because it sucks. Blame it on resv rules, base, whatever, it sucks. To be junior at DAL on the 767 is not good. Just like being junior on the DC9 sucks.

Stick to the point? Ooooooh-kay. Hey, you brought up the supposed fact that 767 flying must suck if newhires get it. That, in fact, is not accurate. And, within 2 years those pilots are making over $90 an hour flying those widebodies, while a DC9 FO is making what in year 3 (2 years after his DOH)? Not even close. Airlinepilotcentral.com states 3rd year pay on the 767 at DL is $92 an hour (add $3 an hour for INTL), and a 12 year DC9 FO makes $85 an hour.(3rd year DC9 is near $72 an hour). But hey, at least your senior guys still have their pensions......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dbrownie]

Someone who is relatively junior will remain relatively junior and someone who is relatively senior will remain relatively senior, with some adjustment for aircraft and pay.

I agree it is a simple (or complicated) as that. No one

should come out "ahead". Lets hope they can

hammer

this thing out and get on with life.....

I for one look forward to working with the Delta

guys who I have met.

DB

 

[Speedbird34]

On the other issue, you just answered my point. New hires are getting the 767 because it sucks. Blame it on resv rules, base, whatever, it sucks. To be junior at DAL on the 767 is not good. Just like being junior on the DC9 sucks.[/quote]


I am a brand new hire at Delta on the 767ER. Just off TOE. Today I am off to Brazil and I am holding a 14 day off line next month blocking 82 hours. Every guy in my class is holding a line. Got my first choice of cities to layover at.
We new hires at JFK love this Airline and have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming.
As the General Says we are making big bucks second year!!. First year pays alright also. With international pay etc life is awesome at Delta and I have never heard any JFK FO say any diffrent. By tomorrow I would be on a beach in GRU drowning in the sights.
Jambro you would love Delta, I know Northwest is probabely a nice Airline but so is Delta. we have being treated great by everyone.

 

[135 Hack]

........

 

[michael707767]

Stick to the point.... What does the equip have anything to do with integrating a sen list? NOTHING.

Nothing to do with it? Ok, so Delta still owns Comair. If we decided to add Comair to the mix and integrate their pilots with the DAL and NW pilots, you would favor giving them DOH? A Twenty year RJ captain goes on the list the same place as a 20 year 777 captain?

 

[michael707767]

Seniority=time in the company...... .

seniority does not equal time at a company. If you are the last person hired and you stay there for twenty years with no more hiring, does your seniority grow? Nope you are still the bottom person on the list. I think the perfect example of this was AWA and USAir. A twenty year pilot at AWA was very senior. A twenty year pilot at USAir was very junior. Explain to me how the same amount of time can result in such different seniority if seniority is defined by time at the company?

 

[GogglesPisano]

New hires are getting the 767 because it sucks. Blame it on resv rules, base, whatever, it sucks. To be junior at DAL on the 767 is not good. Just like being junior on the DC9 sucks.

Just keep telling yourself that. It makes it easier, doesn't it? Just a little, anyway.

 

[p3flteng]

I am a brand new hire at Delta on the 767ER. Just off TOE. Today I am off to Brazil and I am holding a 14 day off line next month blocking 82 hours. Every guy in my class is holding a line. Got my first choice of cities to layover at.
We new hires at JFK love this Airline and have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming.
As the General Says we are making big bucks second year!!. First year pays alright also. With international pay etc life is awesome at Delta and I have never heard any JFK FO say any diffrent. By tomorrow I would be on a beach in GRU drowning in the sights.
Jambro you would love Delta, I know Northwest is probabely a nice Airline but so is Delta. we have being treated great by everyone.[/quote]

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.

 

[Speedbird34]

I am a brand new hire at Delta on the 767ER. Just off TOE. Today I am off to Brazil and I am holding a 14 day off line next month blocking 82 hours. Every guy in my class is holding a line. Got my first choice of cities to layover at.
We new hires at JFK love this Airline and have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming.
As the General Says we are making big bucks second year!!. First year pays alright also. With international pay etc life is awesome at Delta and I have never heard any JFK FO say any diffrent. By tomorrow I would be on a beach in GRU drowning in the sights.
Jambro you would love Delta, I know Northwest is probabely a nice Airline but so is Delta. we have being treated great by everyone.

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.[/quote]

I am hopeful that it all works out to be fair to all of us. Personally It can not get better for me after a merger. I most likely may get a pay cut, end up on reserve, maybe even get displaced etc.
It is out of my hands, I came to Delta because the future looked bright, I had other options and I choose Delta. Now I am uncertain of the future. But we are all on for the ride. Just hope for the best, try not to stress out and there exist other jobs in the world if we get laid off. Cheers.

 

[jetjockey#1]

Well, don't work for either airline, but just to throw my $0.02 in; that is why I just still believe the easiest way to do any integration is simply, DOH (or rather LOS, length of service, doh adjusted for furlough, leaves, etc.) and just protect equip. positions/bases, pre-merger progression with 'fences'

Not permanent fences, and after the fences come down, enough movement has happened (retirements, etc), and everybody just ends up with whatever their 'seniority' holds, Capt. F/O, Int'l, widebody, etc.

If it was done that way with DL/NWA, entire SLI could be done in a few days, only thing that would take some debate is deciding on the 'fences' (c&s), conditions & restrictions, then DONE.

Still seems like the easiest way to do things, and probably why EVERY other union in this country (and the World for that matter), do it that way. Except pilots in this country???

Again, for what its worth.

PD

That’s why you don’t understand our issues. I don’t think you quite understand why NWA wants DOH and we, DAL, want a relative seniority. I am 95% at DAL, I was hired summer 07, NWA 95% was hired 03/01, I believe. Why should those pilots get a huge bump in company seniority? 95% at one company 95% at the new company. Please explain to me how this system is so unfair?
As far as projected retirements, if NWA could get on paper how many pilots are going to retire they could have a leg to stand on, as of right now, all they have is pilots expected to reach age 60 soon. I guess I don’t understand if they have so many retirements coming up, how come they have displacement bids coming out?
Anyway, seniority is a very touchy subject, and people outside looking in don’t quite understand it.

 

[Superpilot92]

That’s why you don’t understand our issues. I don’t think you quite understand why NWA wants DOH and we, DAL, want a relative seniority. I am 95% at DAL, I was hired summer 07, NWA 95% was hired 03/01, I believe. Why should those pilots get a huge bump in company seniority? 95% at one company 95% at the new company. Please explain to me how this system is so unfair?
As far as projected retirements, if NWA could get on paper how many pilots are going to retire they could have a leg to stand on, as of right now, all they have is pilots expected to reach age 60 soon. I guess I don’t understand if they have so many retirements coming up, how come they have displacement bids coming out?
Anyway, seniority is a very touchy subject, and people outside looking in don’t quite understand it.

What about relative seniority for everyone hired prior to 9/11 and DOH afterwards? That seems reasonable and i am a post 9/11 NWA guy.

 

[Superpilot92]

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Seniority wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.

I am hopeful that it all works out to be fair to all of us. Personally It can not get better for me after a merger. I most likely may get a pay cut, end up on reserve, maybe even get displaced etc.
It is out of my hands, I came to Delta because the future looked bright, I had other options and I choose Delta. Now I am uncertain of the future. But we are all on for the ride. Just hope for the best, try not to stress out and there exist other jobs in the world if we get laid off. Cheers.

I think our future still looks bright but in the near term it might seem a bit bumpy. From what i am hearing if this is done properly then none of us should be out looking for a job. Lets just hope fuel at least levels off, that is the big outlying factor. Good luck and stay positive :beer:

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

What about relative seniority for everyone hired prior to 9/11 and DOH afterwards? That seems reasonable and i am a post 9/11 NWA guy.

Sure doesn't sound reasonable. I'm a post 9/11 guy at DAL and am around 90% in the company and 87% in my category-on the lineholder bubble in my category which is one of the most senior that newbies can hold. NWA has only hired 230 or so while DAL has hired 700. That is a pretty major difference in % of bidding.

 

[General Lee]

I am a brand new hire at Delta on the 767ER. Just off TOE. Today I am off to Brazil and I am holding a 14 day off line next month blocking 82 hours. Every guy in my class is holding a line. Got my first choice of cities to layover at.
We new hires at JFK love this Airline and have to pinch ourselves to make sure we are not dreaming.
As the General Says we are making big bucks second year!!. First year pays alright also. With international pay etc life is awesome at Delta and I have never heard any JFK FO say any diffrent. By tomorrow I would be on a beach in GRU drowning in the sights.
Jambro you would love Delta, I know Northwest is probabely a nice Airline but so is Delta. we have being treated great by everyone.

I believe a major reason that you can hold 76 intl is because of the mass exodus of retirements Delta has already experienced. I am also Junior but on the DC9, I chose NWA because I could move up quickly with the large amount of retirements upcoming.

MY point is that I shouldn't be penalized for flying the DC9. Senoirity wise I was hired in November, and if you think its fair to place a DL newhire hired after me in front of me just because you can hold Something big thats wrong, we are both junior. I would like to see all the newhires post BK be date of hire, that is fair considering that Delta has many more and NWA has 220. By the time this gets to arbitration the DC9-30's will already of been parked(by Sept), so that shouldn't be an issue as we have already absorbed this shrinkage. I was hired in Nov and have about 180 guys below me at NWA, I am OK with a little loss, but to shove me on the bottom just because of the DC9 is crap.

Either way I will live with the arbitrators ruling, hope to keep my job with oil at 130, and not be one of those piss and moaning gripers we all see occasionally...I refuse to be miserable.[/quote]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Besides, your only initial options at NWA were the DC9 or the FE panel on the old whale. So, again, you chose NWA so you could EVENTUALLY move up fast, to maybe a widebody that you could have initially held at Delta, right? Is that right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

Sure doesn't sound reasonable. I'm a post 9/11 guy at DAL and am around 90% in the company and 87% in my category-on the lineholder bubble in my category which is one of the most senior that newbies can hold. NWA has only hired 230 or so while DAL has hired 700. That is a pretty major difference in % of bidding.

I think we can agree that there are many factors that go into these discussions and for that reason i think it will probably go to arbitration. Both sides see things differently. You are in your position because of a number of factors, mainly because of the mass exodus of pilots from DAL when giving away the DAL pensions. NWA would also be in that position IF the NWA pilots decided to go that route but they instead chose to keep theirs meaning more of the senior people stayed. IF that would have happened at NWA I as a 2008 hire could hold DC9 capt if you took a 1000+ off the top. Again different factors. The lists look alot different and it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Do you really think you should, as a 2007 hire at DAL, be ahead of 2001 and earlier NWA pilots? Would you be upset if an arbitrator put me, as a 2008 hire NWA pilot in front of you? Its easy to be jaded about all this stuff but whats fair to you or I may not be fair to someone else. We shall see how it plays out. Either way lets how its close to "Fair"

 

[jayme]

Wait, wait, you chose NWA because of the upcoming mass retirements? Come on! Ridiculous statement here, read to you by the NWA MEC people..... You are trying to add your only power point argument that really was blown away by age 65. Come on now.

Bye Bye--General Lee

How does 65 change anything? Your guys get to retire at 65, too, pushing upgrades there back 5 years as well. RA65 doesn't just affect NWA.