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Nwa Amfa Hangs Alone, You Are Next

psycho

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Question for the pilot group with all due respect
You folks have 12% on furlough with recall rights and have taken a pay cut. No pilot at NWA is making less than 120 k. Most are making more.
AMFA has lost 48% to termination since 9/11 ( No recall ) Now NWA wants to terminate 50% of the survivors in AMFA and give the rest a 26% pay cut. These folks take care of your airplanes and make 50 to 90 k tops, allowing them to live in a decent blue collar neighborhood.
Now comes NWA MEC " We have taken cuts, it is selfish of the AMFA to draw the line "
When NWA wants to ELIMINATE 75% of all pilot jobs and give the rest of you a 26% pay cut, will you take the stance that ALPA is being unreasonable??
Next will come AFAA, then IAM, then ALPA.
NWA MEC does have the right to sympathy strike, will that happen??
 

cathal

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What concessionary proposal by NWA could possibly pass when more than 50% of the membership will lose their jobs as a result? None. All AMFA is ensuring at this point is that they lose 100% of the jobs instead of the 75%, and thus screwing the most senior members out of their jobs that they would keep without the union.
 

General Lee

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That's true. They wanted to fire 53% of the mechanics. Bring that to a vote, and I bet at least 53% would vote it down. Then, minutes before the strike, NW gives them another offer--which was worse. They wanted a strike over there. And, their plans submitted for possible pilot concessions wasn't great either. The ace in their pocket is the pension plan, and the senior pilots would probably do anything to keep it. Scary times.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

psycho

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cathal said:
What concessionary proposal by NWA could possibly pass when more than 50% of the membership will lose their jobs as a result? None. All AMFA is ensuring at this point is that they lose 100% of the jobs instead of the 75%, and thus screwing the most senior members out of their jobs that they would keep without the union.
Catheter,

You are so right!! If I were in a concentration camp with 99 other people, and the Germans said I could survive as long as I voted to eliminate 75% of the remaining lives, I would say " You guys are so cool, I look forward to a long and happy relationship with you'
 

klhoard

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Has anyone gotten a read from the scabs whether they're being told they are permanent? Are they moving their families?
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gutshotdraw

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Psycho,

No pilot is making less than 120K? Are you smoking crack? I wish my better half was making that much. I could retire.

NWA Pilots took a 15% beating December 1st and will take another pay cut when the company gets around to them again. Many of the job cuts would have been aircraft cleaners not wrenches and many of those cleaners make $50K for a pretty basic job. Bottom line: AMFA would rather tube the entire airline than face the reality of 21st century airline economics. NWA ALPA members saw what happened the last time pilots honored a mechanic strike line: LIQUIDATION.

NWA management's plan is, has been, and always will be to break the most militant union on their property. Operations are running relatively smoothly and will improve as more PERMANENT REPLACEMENTS are recruited and trained. Management won and now the remaining unions in MSP have to figure out how to work with the company to mitigate the damage.

Sad, perhaps but true nonetheless.
 

FN FAL

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klhoard said:
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Has anyone gotten a read from the scabs whether they're being told they are permanent? Are they moving their families?
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Wouldn't a "lockout" have to occur before scabs could be given permanant positions?
 

FN FAL

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gutshotdraw said:
Psycho,

No pilot is making less than 120K? Are you smoking crack? I wish my better half was making that much. I could retire.

NWA Pilots took a 15% beating December 1st and will take another pay cut when the company gets around to them again. Many of the job cuts would have been aircraft cleaners not wrenches and many of those cleaners make $50K for a pretty basic job. Bottom line: AMFA would rather tube the entire airline than face the reality of 21st century airline economics. NWA ALPA members saw what happened the last time pilots honored a mechanic strike line: LIQUIDATION.

NWA management's plan is, has been, and always will be to break the most militant union on their property. Operations are running relatively smoothly and will improve as more PERMANENT REPLACEMENTS are recruited and trained. Management won and now the remaining unions in MSP have to figure out how to work with the company to mitigate the damage.

Sad, perhaps but true nonetheless.
Maybe they could get that "lake woebegone" guy Garrison Keillor, to come and do televison advertising promo spots for NWA like he did for International Paper when they were union busting back in the late '80s.
 

Jim

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I'm obviously not a NWA pilot but here's the way I see it from looking from the outside...

ALPA studied the airline's financial situation and agreed to concessions as necessary. Further, they informed the rest of the unions of the results of this study and told them that concessions were indeed needed from all. For months, ALPA has asked the other unions to join in to preserve ALL their jobs. The other unions, especially the AMFA gave both NWA management and ALPA the big f' you.

Now AMFA says ALPA, even though we gave you the finger and total blew off your financial study and advice, we want you to support us and sympathy strike. Oh yeah, sorry about that thing back in 1998.....

So because no other union has helped, NWA is going to come at the pilots for even more concessions. NWA ALPA realizes that NWA's financials are only going to get worst if the airline is shut down by a strike or if the other unions do not give concessions. As a labor union, they can not actively support management yet they can not actively oppose management because it will only cost the pilots more in the long run. NWA goes into bankruptcy if AMFA's strike shuts down the airline or NWA goes into bankruptcy if the other unions do not provide concessions. It's a no win situation for NWA ALPA so they are effectively remaining neutral.

Yes, I realize that concessions always suck, that too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed. But that's now history that can not be changed. NWA ALPA's job is to trying to preserve its pilots jobs, work rules, retirement, etc. Why should they give up more because another labor group has buried its head in the sand and refused to accept reality?

Sometimes doing what is right scews the junior guys. The pilots at Hawaiian took 2 rounds of concessions. I voted for the first even though I knew it would guarantee my furlough. While I did not get to vote for the second, I told many guys over and over that preserving our work rules and retirement were more important than getting me recalled sooner. The second round of concessions did that - protected these things by changing the staffing formula to require more work from active pilots and slowing potential recalls. I've been furloughed for close to 3 years with no end in sight. I have a good idea of the choice the junior AMFA guys are facing.

If the pilots honor the AMFA picket line or sympathy strikes, NWA will go into bankruptcy. Then every labor group will pay a much steeper price in the form of greater job losses and larger concessions.

Is NWA ALPA's position right or wrong? That's for the NWA ALPA membership to decide.
 
Last edited:

vc10

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That which NWA gets from AMFA is that much less it needs to get from ALPA...



psycho said:
Question for the pilot group with all due respect
You folks have 12% on furlough with recall rights and have taken a pay cut. No pilot at NWA is making less than 120 k. Most are making more.
AMFA has lost 48% to termination since 9/11 ( No recall ) Now NWA wants to terminate 50% of the survivors in AMFA and give the rest a 26% pay cut. These folks take care of your airplanes and make 50 to 90 k tops, allowing them to live in a decent blue collar neighborhood.
Now comes NWA MEC " We have taken cuts, it is selfish of the AMFA to draw the line "
When NWA wants to ELIMINATE 75% of all pilot jobs and give the rest of you a 26% pay cut, will you take the stance that ALPA is being unreasonable??
Next will come AFAA, then IAM, then ALPA.
NWA MEC does have the right to sympathy strike, will that happen??
 

castle bravo

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...too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed.






Not to mention NWA management's masterful strategy at fuel hedging. The $100 ticket vouchers for pax to ride on Champion Air was another real reveune generator. Way to go, NWA management- keep up the good work. And, don't forget to give yourself a well deserved cash bonus while you're at it- you earned it.
 

AMRCostUnit

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castle bravo said:
...too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed.






Not to mention NWA management's masterful strategy at fuel hedging. The $100 ticket vouchers for pax to ride on Champion Air was another real reveune generator. Way to go, NWA management- keep up the good work. And, don't forget to give yourself a well deserved cash bonus while you're at it- you earned it.
...plus how much was spent training replacements? $107 milllion I believe the number is. Pay close attention to what is going on and reread the title of this thread over and over...

Unit
 

CatfishVT9

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psycho said:
Catheter,

You are so right!! If I were in a concentration camp with 99 other people, and the Germans said I could survive as long as I voted to eliminate 75% of the remaining lives, I would say " You guys are so cool, I look forward to a long and happy relationship with you'
You must be a French coward. Sorry I know that's redundant.
 

michael707767

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castle bravo said:
...too many airline managements depend on concessions to cover their financial blunders and that NWA shot down a lot of ticket price increases that could have reduced the amount of the concessions needed.


I forgot about that. How many times was NWA the one who shot down a fare increase? They have made huge blunders over there and now labor is paying for it.
 

mnboyev

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Pretty sad days.... NWA shouldnt have messed up that CAL buyout a few years back.... too bad...

AMFA's gonna take it on the chops... Hang in there fellas !!
 

dbrownie

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michael707767 said:
I forgot about that. How many times was NWA the one who shot down a fare increase? They have made huge blunders over there and now labor is paying for it.

Mgt's "last man standing" strategy was no doubt a "loser move".

They kept teling us that they couldn't raise fares but yet have done it 4 times this year. Too little too late.

They do expect labor to pay for their blunders.

Dave B
 

AA717driver

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If what you all are saying is true (I'm not disputing that) then the NWA pilots should give themselves a 1.98% raise by dumping ALPA.

The course they "must" take removes the entire reason for having a union. Already you have huge backlogs of grievances (Who initially benefits from a CBA violation? The company of course.). Now, you have the union admitting more concessions are coming--and they can't do a thing to stop it.

Give me a reason for ALPA to be on the property anywhere. TC
 

h25b

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AA717driver said:
If what you all are saying is true (I'm not disputing that) then the NWA pilots should give themselves a 1.98% raise by dumping ALPA.

The course they "must" take removes the entire reason for having a union. Already you have huge backlogs of grievances (Who initially benefits from a CBA violation? The company of course.). Now, you have the union admitting more concessions are coming--and they can't do a thing to stop it.

Give me a reason for ALPA to be on the property anywhere. TC
I love fellow "de-programmed" former union members... A couple years surviving the corporate side will do that for you.. ;)
 

ExAF

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Check Your Facts

psycho said:
Question for the pilot group with all due respect
You folks have 12% on furlough with recall rights and have taken a pay cut. No pilot at NWA is making less than 120 k. Most are making more.
WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? There are A LOT of pilots at NWA that don't make 120K. Mabe most captains make more but not the FOs. They've already taken a 15% cut and the initial start from the company for round 2 is another 35% and 1800 more furloughs. That's before they rape the work rules.

Jim: Your post is right on the money.
 

TonyC

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FN FAL said:
Wouldn't a "lockout" have to occur before scabs could be given permanant positions?
Isn't that effectively what occurred when NWA started sending mechanics home early Friday evening?




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