NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

[Noserider76]

Why do you want to enjoy the massive move up over the last few years and then move up even more when NWA pilots retire?

Again, and again... there was no mssive moveup with the retirements, and it wouldn't make a difference if there had been. We got to live through the retirements of 100s of elderly aircraft at DL it looks like we'll get to again. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[General Lee]

Ok Buttwipe. Every MEC since the beginning of time has in-fighting. I personally think some SEA reps and a couple ANC reps are tools, but that is just my opinion. I guess you would fall to your knees for all your reps huh?Remember months ago when some Delta pilots were trying to recall some of your LEC reps? Those pesky facts again.

As far as DOH, there have been dozens of DOH awards and don't think for a minute that the screwed up Nicalau award will be the only one they look at. ALPA merger policy was thrown out when the two mec agreed to expedited arbitration and has NEVER been the precedent, only a guideline.

Geez, can you get any facts right?

I'll give you one more chance, why do you want a category ratio when you know that it hurts NWA pilots? Why do you want to enjoy the massive move up over the last few years and then move up even more when NWA pilots retire? Because we may park planes or we get the priveledge of being a Delta pilot? Thats your argument? Remember, if planes are parked, they are all Delta planes now. I am sure Bloch will act accordingly

We had one guy bring up dropping Moak at a meeting. This particular guy is a multimillionaire, who HELPED guys with their pensions. Could you see why he might be upset? We lost our pensions. He wasn't happy about it. The facts please.

I know why the ANC and SEA guys are upset. We haven't had whole LEC's mad at our MEC, just a few people. I can understand why though the ANC and SEA guys are feeling the heat. That is the way it goes. You have whole bases mad. Your cargo division lost $185 million last year.

Dozens of DOH awards? Within ALPA? Current ALPA? Same sized airlines (well, we are bigger than you)? Really? Did you review any of the transcripts around the 20th of OCT? Did you see our guy hammer yours about DOH and how your past mergers have essentially been ratios? You have always been bigger than the potential airlines you have acquired or thought about acquiring, so THEN it was ok for ratios. Now, since you are smaller, you want DOH. Sorry, that won't work.

Category ratio hurts NWA pilots. Hmmm. Could that be because we bring a lot more widebodies (you are likely to lose some 742s really soon), at higher pay compared to 3/4 of your fleet. (pre-DCC pay---that is what is being shown in arbitration) We are bringing the majority of the widebodies and higher pay to the table. We expended most of the extra pay allotted to us by the company to just bring you up to parity.(had to be done). And what thanks to we get? A pension? Nope. We get your SLI proposal, which knocks most of us back 14%. Yep. BACKWARDS. What do we get with ours? We move up 2%, and that is due to your bottom 400 guys going to the bottom since many of your planes are going bye bye (don't say they aren't, don't do it, we all know).

I don't want any mainline planes to go away, but reality is reality. We know the business plans, and the arbitrators do too, since they were discussed in the "confidential" sections of the transcripts. Your lawyer extolled the mighty DC9, and we all know that the only other passenger airlines in the vicinity that fly them regularly are in Venezuela. (oil is 5 cents a gallon there too) Come on now, you have to get over yourselves and come to the reality that you aren't bringing as much to the table, and that means something. And you call me buttwipe? Come on, you are getting testy, and starting to look like McCain at the last debate.

And Noserider76 is correct. When we lost our Captains to retirements, we also lost all of our MD11s, 767-200s, and all of the smaller 737s (-200s and -300s). The smaller 737s alone were numbered at over 60, and we had 14 MD11s and about 15 767-200s. This was all after BK, not after 9-11. After 9-11 we lost all of our 727s and L1011s. And what you don't understand is that our smaller 737s are equal to your DC9s. We already lost our smaller planes, and you have not, until of course you are on our property and expect our guys to go along with them.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

What's great is that there will be a lot of Delta 767ERs soon at NRT, replacing a lot of your A330s, and all of your 757s. Yep, that's right. We will be moving in, and a lot of your A330s WILL BE going to JFK, to fly to lovely places like Amman, Cairo, and Tel Aviv. Maybe your A330s can get some Africa action, too. Ever wonder why your SEA and ANC LEC's are upset? Go ask them, they have seen the business plan. So have the arbitrators. Also, look to see a lot more NONSTOPS from ATL to Asia soon, like HKG upcoming. Also, I have heard our 767-400s will continue to go from ATL to HNL, but then onward to NRT and KIX, and maybe Nagoya. Can't wait.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Yo General, it's our 767-ER's, and our 330's and our 747-400's now. I'm looking forward to flying them as well as our MD-80's, DC9's, A320's, 737's etc.

We all are going to be flying different places and different aircraft eventually. Your point?

If you have non-confidential details on the biz plan please publish them here.

 

[Fly4hire]

What's great is that there will be a lot of Delta 767ERs soon at NRT, replacing a lot of your A330s, and all of your 757s. Yep, that's right. We will be moving in, and a lot of your A330s WILL BE going to JFK, to fly to lovely places like Amman, Cairo, and Tel Aviv. Maybe your A330s can get some Africa action, too. Ever wonder why your SEA and ANC LEC's are upset? Go ask them, they have seen the business plan.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Biz plans may be changing as we speak - Ed Bastian from a Capt Leadership seminar just several days ago:

From a fleet perspective there wont be as many changes as they had initially talked about as the logistics would outweigh the benefits. He was very general in this area, and would only say that there would be just a handful of routes/aircraft adjustments initially.

He did comment on the 50 seat markets and how DAL made a huge mistake in ordering so many of these just because the scope allowed it. They have since parked 250 since BK with more to follow. 757 will be first aircraft to see changes to its ops procedures as it is the most common and largest part of the combined fleets.

 

[General Lee]

Yo General, it's our 767-ER's, and our 330's and our 747-400's now. I'm looking forward to flying them as well as our MD-80's, DC9's, A320's, 737's etc.

We all are going to be flying different places and different aircraft eventually. Your point?

If you have non-confidential details on the biz plan please publish them here.

That is correct, yet the planes will probably be based in SEA prior to the SOC, and we have a lot of people who want to go there, so it may be very senior. Initially we will train CVG guys to do INTL flying (currently a DOM only 757/767 base), and they will be ready to start those Asia flights very soon from SEA (via Deadheads), until a SEA base is established and trained. Also, you know there will be some fences on the widebodies, right? Your greenbooks were unfairly kept on narrowbodies for too long, and they thankfully will move up to YOUR A330s and 744s first (before our 764s and 777s), via the new manning formula on ultra longhaul flights (2 Captains and 2 FOs on over 12 hour flights). There is no way we should make up for the ridiculous Roberts award and resulting 20 year fence. No, they deserve to move up to your planes first.

And, I know Ed Bastain talked to you guys. A lot of this depends on how long it takes to do the SOC, and the FAA has to sign off on all of that. If you fly the 757, get ready to lose the bat wings FD, since we have crosshairs. Also, our checklists are different, and the way we do weight and balance I believe. You guys may have to do some sims. Other than that, it will be seemless I am sure. Welcome aboard, and after the fair SLI is done, it will be GRAND....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

ALPA merger policy was thrown out when the two mec agreed to expedited arbitration and has NEVER been the precedent, only a guideline.

Go back a read the SLI process agreement. Pay particular attention to paragraph 5.

It always amazes me when a NWA pilot tries to convince himself that ALPA merger policy was thrown out or didn't apply. Perhaps it's a realization that NALPA's proposal is not at all consistent with ALPA's merger policy.

Could you name one arbitration using ALPA's merger policy that went DOH since DOH was dropped from ALPA merger policy in 1991?

 

[FDJ2]

Yo General, it's our 767-ER's, and our 330's and our 747-400's now.

Not so fast, you are still just a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines just like CMR, those aren't your aircraft. On the other hand Delta does own you and your aircraft.

 

[Fly4hire]

Not so fast, you are still just a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines just like CMR, those aren't your aircraft. On the other hand Delta does own you and your aircraft.

I was referring to we are all DAL pilots now. Or do you debate that? Of course we won't be flying each others pre-merger equipment until after SOC, fences etc.

PS, you don't own them either, our mutual employer does.

 

[NuGuy]

Go back a read the SLI process agreement. Pay particular attention to paragraph 5.

It always amazes me when a NWA pilot tries to convince himself that ALPA merger policy was thrown out or didn't apply. Perhaps it's a realization that NALPA's proposal is not at all consistent with ALPA's merger policy.

Could you name one arbitration using ALPA's merger policy that went DOH since DOH was dropped from ALPA merger policy in 1991?

FDJ,

All ALPA merger policy states when you boil it down is fair and equitable, with no windfalls to either side.

DOH/fences is a means to an end. If the arbitrators decide that DOH with 10 year fences IS fair and equitable, then that's what the decision will be. It doesn't matter what you think. THEY interpret what's fair.

Interesting that Moak put out a notice that the award date had been slid when both parties had not agreed to it.

Communications breaking down on the old committee? Maybe you should spend more time proofreading Moak's letters rather than wasting time here.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

FDJ,

All ALPA merger policy states when you boil it down is fair and equitable, with no windfalls to either side.

DOH/fences is a means to an end. If the arbitrators decide that DOH with 10 year fences IS fair and equitable, then that's what the decision will be. It doesn't matter what you think. THEY interpret what's fair.

Interesting that Moak put out a notice that the award date had been slid when both parties had not agreed to it.

Communications breaking down on the old committee? Maybe you should spend more time proofreading Moak's letters rather than wasting time here.

Nu

The arbitrators still have to look at the current policy and abide by that. Did Nicelau's decision (the precedent) go off on a rogue way and stray from current ALPA policy? I don't think so. And, that December 20th date was ALWAYS the date inwhich the arbitrators had to submit the WRITTEN ruling. Maybe your MEC requested more time after they saw the confidential business plan? They probably had to redo the computer model for the NWA SLI that had 94 DC9s in it, and 787 slots....start over....and your guys are going to go for it all, even though everyone else going for DOH has failed recently. They have nothing to lose, and can always blame the arbitrators. They don't really know how to negotiate anyway---all they have ever done is send it to the arbitrators.....


Bye Bye--General Lee