Ntsb Notes First Officer's Failure....in 2003 Fedex Crash

[enigma]

Riddle me this, What do you call a woman flying an airplane?
























The PILOT, you sexist pig.

enigma

 

[FedEx1]

I am wondering if she told Fedex about her reason for leaving (or if she had already left) Mesaba before interviewing at Fedex. Fedex would have fired her anyway if it had turned out she lied about it, accident or not. And resigning in lieu of being fired is the same as being fired, to Fedex. (Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean you can't get a job- as long as you tell the truth and show how you learned from the experience, etc...)

Also, she was getting this line check because she had an altitude bust in Europe. She was supposed to have a mediated debrief (not always a bad thing at Fedex) but kept calling in sick several times and avoiding the inevitable. This line check was the final straw for her job.

And YES, she only got extra training and all that per our contract, as any guy would have, too. No extras here. However she fell through the cracks, I don't know. But that has nothing to do with all the other women at Fedex.

 

[FL717]

I know of several female pilots who are among the top pilots I have ever seen in 30+ years as an airline pilot, instructor, check airman and examiner.

I also know of several male pilots that couldn't pass a training program where they were given every conceivable "remediation" possible.

All this has absolutely NOTHING to do with anything. Those of you playing the "gender" card here are only showing your own narrow-minded, simplistic view of your OWN shortcomings.

Sad. Very sad.

Come to think of it, it was a MALE whose repeated failures, poor performance and subsequent FATAL ACCIDENT was the driving force behind the PRIA. Of course, his gender had nothing to do with it. But had he been something other than a white male (of which I am) then all the simpletons would have come out from under their rocks screaming about how it is the fault of the new PC world.

Ignorance comes in many forms, however most of them are as predictable as the sunrise.

Amen brother! But look at it this way.... this thread has given us all a chance to see who the sexist, uninformed idiots are around here.

 

[AA717driver]

This should only be about the sex of the individual involved if they didn't get the same treatment as someone of the opposite sex.

Good post by Yank McCobb.

As to the age of the aircraft being a contributing factor--I spent half my career flying 1960's vintage DC-9's and they were built like brick $h!thouses. I'd rather fly a 30 year old DC-9 than a 10 year old Bus. (Appoligies to the Blue Crew... )TC

 

[Ty Webb]

Guys, the point isn't whether women make good pilots. Just like male pilots, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly.

However, due to the small numbers of available female pilots, and the pressure to have a "diverse workforce" a weak pilot who is a woman is more likely to be hired, mentored through training, and, in general, be helped along to achieve a position that may be above the level that their skills and abilities should have taken them.

This policy gives ammo to the guys who want to believe that ALL women pilots are bad.

Flame away.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

A good friend of mine went to class at FDX from a DHC-8 last summer. He is a very good pilot and flew in some very challenging conditions.

 

[Dodge]

The point is not that it was a female. I know many good pilots, all of who are made up of different genetic code. The point is that this female is obviously a bad pilot and should have never been employed with Fed Ex or Mesaba. Anyone with a track record as hers, should not be flying people or cargo around. Its too bad that her resume was ushered to the top of the pile and hired just because she is a woman, regardless of competence.

 

[SWAnnabee]

If you think this kind of preferential hiring doesn't exist, I have news for you. Its not just on the civilian side. While on active duty as a military flight instructor my collateral duty was as the Student Control Officer. Any student who received an unsatisfactory grade or "down" came through my office first and we tracked their progress. Get a certain number of "downs" through training and you're out, usually around three or four.

I know many female pilots from when I was a student, active in the fleet, civilian flight training, etc who were fine pilots and I would have complete trust and confidence in flying with or allowing them to fly with my family aboard. I also know of several who just didn't cut it.

I can tell you, without hesitation, I saw several while in the military who were given many more chances to succeed than their male student counterparts. Made me sick sometimes to see a few males get sent packing while we kept a couple of females around much longer. And the pressure was for quotas. Military has them same as civilian side. It sucks but thats just the way it is.
One female studentin particular had EIGHT DOWNS in her squadron training. Every time she received a down she would accuse the instructor of sexual harrassment and that instructor would be put on a no fly list with her. It got to the point where there weren't enough instructors to schedule her with (and many who refused to fly with her for fear of being accused), so the Navy, in all its wisdom, transferred her to another squadron. Guess what happened. Same stuff all over again. She was being kept around because she was slated to be one of the first female fighter pilots. We had news and camera crews comming by all the time to document her "historic" efforts. Her grades, however, just weren't cutting it and things came to a head. She was about to be attrited so you won't believe what she tried to do. Took a video camera to all the student graduation parties hoping to gather incriminating evidence of poor behavior. Mind you, this was about a year or so after the tailhook scandal. She got some footage on tape of a couple of students mooning each other and took it all the way to some Admiral. The Admiral SH!T CANNED her on the spot for trying to blackmail the Navy By the way, the Admiral was a female. I, for one, was very impressed by her actions and glad to see her make the right decision.

So, you see, many of us have no problem with qualified female pilots. What many of us have a problem with is preferential treatment in hiring and training. NOTHING SEXIST ABOUT THAT! Just fairness and common sense.

 

[h25b]

I hate to even jump in here, but I feel that I must say a few things.

The first is, it sounds like there are a lot of guys (generic) who have never made a bad landing in their life. I'm hoping that you continue to shine like that throughout the rest of your career. FJ

Made lots of bad landings.... Absolutely.

One so bad that a landing gear collapsed.... Not even close.

I would tend to agree with AA717DRVR on this one and it tends to go along with something else I have noticed over the past few years. This would be the general reluctance to perform a go-around. My guess would be that this landing started going south well before the actual impact. Ever hear, "a good approach leads to a good landing?" Maybe someone that's seen the FDR re-creation could prove me wrong but I doubt it.

 

[atrdriver]

I know of several female pilots who are among the top pilots I have ever seen in 30+ years as an airline pilot, instructor, check airman and examiner.

I also know of several male pilots that couldn't pass a training program where they were given every conceivable "remediation" possible.

As do all of us. That's not the point being made here. If a male fails multiple pro checks he is gone. If a female does the same, they can claim discrimination and the airlines are scared to press the issue, they just tuck their tails and re-train until someone will sign them off. Maybe you don't know of any examples like this, but I do, and it makes me sick.

 

[720degpersec]

She was being kept around because she was slated to be one of the first female fighter pilots. We had news and camera crews comming by all the time to document her "historic" efforts. Her grades, however, just weren't cutting it and things came to a head.

That's why we don't let women fly jets in my Air Force.

Now I am fishing for trouble, putting this on the board...

 

[Phaedrus]

What Air Force?

 

[johnny taliban]

That's why we don't let women fly jets in my Air Force.

TAKE COVER...INCOMING!!!

 

[ATRedneck]

Whether the pilot in question is a man or woman, logged time legit or on her back, flew the Dash-8 or a Duchess, black, white, gay, whatever... the fact remains from the relevant articles that this particular pilot has a history of busted training events and "poor airmanship."

All I can say is that I'm glad she's hauling boxes.

 

[Echopapa]

I spent half my career flying 1960's vintage DC-9's and they were built like brick $h!thouses. I'd rather fly a 30 year old DC-9 than a 10 year old Bus. (Appoligies to the Blue Crew... )TC

Just to clarify: the gear that riped of was off a "new" MD-10, not a Bus. As strange as this may seem, the A300 is actually designed to withstand landing in a crab, and it is a published technique to land with some crab at crosswinds greater than 20 knots.

 

[ultrarunner]

the fact remains from the relevant articles that this particular pilot has a history of busted training events and "poor airmanship."

And the PIRA record that FDX looked at clearly pointed this out..

and she was hired because???????

So much for PIRA.

 

[ATRedneck]

So much for PIRA.

Yeah. Especially if you *******

 

[habubuaza]

And the PIRA record that FDX looked at clearly pointed this out..

and she was hired because???????

So much for PIRA.

She was hired prior to PRIA taking effect. That information was provided in the accident report.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

Affirmative action is crap, especially in a field like aviation. WE SHOULD ALL BE HELD TO THE SAME MINS/QUALIFICATIONS/STANDARDS regardless of sex/color, yadda, yadda, yadda. I'm all for equal rights, but let's remember equal rights are NOT special rights.

Amen my brother!

 

[blzr]

Is she still flying the line?

 

[GuppyPuppy]

... If she was weak....as it apears, I am sure she will or has been dealt with.

Just like the woman who failed her initial checkride 5 times at UAL?

Oh yeah, she passed on the sixth try and is currently a B744 F/O.

Or the dude who missed the radio towers on Mt. San Bruno (SFO) by 40 feet (UAL B744). I believe he too still has a job!

GP

 

[ultrarunner]

She was hired prior to PRIA taking effect. That information was provided in the accident report.

Thanks for pointing that out. Although based on previous statements, who knows if PRIA would have made a difference.

I suspect it would have based on the liability issue, but you never know.

 

[inline]

Fedex hired her after flying the Dash-8 ???

Kind of a big jump in size, speed and complexity, between a Dash-8 and an MD-11....Oh well all that counts is the number of hours and the right gender, to be hired I guess...

Check this video and compare it to a medium turbo-prop landing...

http://www.flightlevel350.com/public_viewer.php?cat=76&pic=2569

Lots of other cargo operators flying DC-10/md-11s and 747s do just fine with new-hires who have only flown medium size turpoprops. You don't need jet time.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Just like the woman who failed her initial checkride 5 times at UAL?

Oh yeah, she passed on the sixth try and is currently a B744 F/O.

Or the dude who missed the radio towers on Mt. San Bruno (SFO) by 40 feet (UAL B744). I believe he too still has a job!

GP

Unbelievable!
Hey I like the idea of a JNU base GuppyPuppy!

 

[Liberator]

What a disapointment this whole web site is. I just signed up and will not be returning, based on threads like this, started by Neanderthals, supported by the ignorant.

 

[TIGV]

See ya.....

 

[klhoard]

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Buh-bye. . .
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[Hugh Jorgan]

Ignorance comes in many forms, however most of them are as predictable as the sunrise.

So does naivity.
The plane doesn't know or care if the manipulator of the controls has a penis or a vagina. Unfortunately, the same doesn't hold true for hiring or training departments.
All that stuff aside, when I asked my buddy at FedEx what happened in MEM that day, with a totally serious look, he said "I heard there was********". It took a second for me to get it before I started howling.

Disclaimer: my wife is a pilot also and flies like a freaking machine. But if you think you get pi$$ed about "bad women pilots" being promoted beyond their ability, bring it up with a chick who actually CAN fly--and has to prove herself to the rest of her her whole career because of them.

The qualified are the truest victims of affirmative action, regardless of profession.

 

[flyjessyfly]

This thread is proof of the fact that sexism is still alive and well in aviation. Perhaps women do need some sort of preferential hiring because of attitudes so clearly stated in previous threads.



The fact is that women pilots are less than 6% of all of aviators. Last number I heard of ATP's was hovering around 2.8%. That information was from 1998 so let's conservatively bump that to about 5%.



If 5% is what's keeping you from doing anything in your life. Perhaps you should turn all that energy around and focus on yourself.



Its hard to go to work and be judged by appearance despite ability or experience. That's why women network: to give each other support and encouragement.



I don't normally post. I don't know this Fedex FO either. I was just getting nauseous by some of the posts. I had to represent.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't normally post. I don't know this Fedex FO either. I was just getting nauseous by some of the posts.

Uh, likewise, I am sure.

I had to represent.

What are you, about fourteen?