NTSB Final Report on Corporate Airlines 5966

[Rogue5]

Lequip, besides being an ass, you're uninformed:

If you watch the NTSB's webcast, the vast majority of the human factors testimony from the investigative team to the Board consisted of a discussion about fatigue and crew-rest requirements and its probable influence in this accident.

To take one quote from a newspaper article out of context and disregard the other findings of the Board smacks of ignorance, arrogance, and the lack of any desire to address ALL causal factors in order to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.

THAT is truly "unprofessional."

 

[BoilerUP]

The story on the front page of the USA Today about this accident was a piss-poor excuse fior objective journalism.

Did the flight crew screw up? Yeah, probably - most flight crews involved in an accident do. The questions to be asked are "Why did they screw up?" and "What are the contributing factors?" Its really easy to say they descended below MDA prior to being legal and/or safe, but why did they do that? To ignore the human factors role fatigue plays in accidents just like this would be a failure to find the systemic cause of these types of events.

 

[CA1900]

The story on the front page of the USA Today about this accident was a piss-poor excuse for objective journalism.

That pretty well sums up USA Today in general. It's a piss-poor excuse for a newspaper anyway.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

All humans make mistakes.
Mistakes in airplanes kill.
Mistakes in other occupations don't.

A human in an airplane WILL make a mistake on time or another. It's a matter of chance of whether it will be onethat is life-ending or not.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Interesting that a greyhound bus driver has more strict rest and fatigue rules than we do! Is the DOT more intelligent than the FAA?

 

[banned username 1]

Pilot "Pushing"

Ever since some observant manager deduced that it required pilots to fly their airplanes around, there have been those who attempted to squeeze a little more productivity out of us. One way to do it is by building schedules or requiring availability that are beyond the boundries of good sense regarding fatigue.

What do we do? It's easier said than done, to quote the reverse side of out medicals and its admonition regarding flying with a known physical impairment. If you do not have a strong representative union to stand up for you, here's what I'd recommend: Document, document, document what the company does to people with times, dates and names. When you have a compelling dossier, take it to the FAA as a whistleblower.

If somehow, your employer finds out who blew that whistle and causes you grief, there are laws that can protect those who report abuse. Frankly, a settlement with punitive damages for seeking retribution on an employee would be like winning a small Lotto.

 

[AV80R]

Well, I read the NTSB findings and must say it wasn’t easy.

I was very fortunate to have known Kim, I never met Jonathan but I heard he was a great guy as well. I did some of Kim’s sim training and one or maybe two of his line checks – You’ll probably be surprised to hear this but I was always impressed with his “professional demeanor.” Based on the NTSB report you’d think that’s impossible but I can assure you - Kim was a great and a professional aviator.

Obviously things went out of control on this flight; I wasn’t there and I’m not sure exactly what happened or more importantly why it happened (I’m talking about the “unprofessional” behavior as it is termed by the NTSB)

I have no doubt that both Kim and Jonathan would have wanted for us to learn from their mistakes (and yes, I believe serious mistakes were made). For their sake and for the sake of the passengers who perished or who were injured - we all must learn from this.

I am amazed the NTSB did not focus on crew fatigue more than they did. C’mon, 6th approach for the day in marginal weather is not safe! They were exhausted for sure! Additionally, I think that sometimes pilots who are VERY professional and who always fly “by-the-book” become disillusioned with the conditions the work under, with the way they are treated by their employers, their passengers, etc, etc and begin to give up on themselves. Please bear in mind that I am only speculating here but I’m thinking that maybe sometimes people lose their hope when they begin to reason that since nobody gives a da** about them why should they? Again, I am NOT using this as an excuse but I think every now and then people just give up and unfortunately that’s when “sh** hits the fan.”

So what’s my point? Well, I agree with “LJDRV” post on different ways of trying to fight fatigue. I also think we all must keep an eye on each other for signs of exhaustion, resignation, depression or just plain “blues.” We are all prone to it and I remember that not too long ago I felt like giving up on aviation because “flying is great but I have to eat too.”

I am sure the many years Kim spent flying the Jetstream for minimum wage salary, where minimum rest was the norm rather than exception to the rule, where the wx usually sucks, and where there didn’t seem to be any improvements in sight probably made him feel much unappreciated. Again, I hope you all realize that I do NOT believe being tired or underpaid is an excuse for “unprofessional behavior” – I am just saying people are HUMAN and therefore we all need to keep an eye on each other and maybe be ready to support each other when needed.

You know, the more I read my own post the less I know what I am trying to say. Basically, I miss my friend and I know he would have wanted us to learn from this, that’s all!

Ps. A month or so ago, I had Kim Sasse’s brother on one of my flights out of Atlanta and for a brief moment I was in a state of shock because I thought Kim was back! His brother is a couple of years older but he looks just like him; you’d think they were identical twin brothers! I was able to exchange a few words with him and could tell he misses his brother very dearly. I told him that Kim was a great person, well-liked by everyone and that each time I flew with him he was very knowledgeable and professional to the core. And I meant what I said!

A really spooky part of this accident is the nick-name many gate agents at Corpex used for Kim – “JFK junior!” He was tall and jovial, had same demeanor and mannerisms as JFK junior; unfortunately they both perished in an aircraft crash!

av8or

 

[81Horse]

AV8OR, condolences on the loss of your colleagues.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

AV8OR:

A better post could not have been written. I hope that none of my comments came off as insulting the crew, indeed, I think no one here means any disrespect. We really have to learn from this so that we don't lose more guys like these.

I have no doubt they both were professionals. All of us... And I do mean ALL OF US... Have moments when we are not at our best. These guys just got caught in one of those moments and events caught up with them. This accident could happen to anyone, be they jet jockeys, freight dogs, scooter trash or weekend warriors. I too am sorry they are gone, as I am sorry that the four friends I have lost in this business are gone.

Like I said... Learning from it is the only thing that we can do.

 

[AV80R]

Deleted by av80r

 

[AV80R]

"A better post could not have been written. I hope that none of my comments came off as insulting the crew, indeed, I think no one here means any disrespect. We really have to learn from this so that we don't lose more guys like these."

- Thank you for the kind words; I can assure you Kim would have welcomed a “debate,” he was a very sharp individual indeed, computer programmer in his previous professional life if my memory serves me right.

"I have no doubt they both were professionals. All of us... And I do mean ALL OF US... Have moments when we are not at our best"

- I agree 100%


"These guys just got caught in one of those moments and events caught up with them. This accident could happen to anyone, be they jet jockeys, freight dogs, scooter trash or weekend warriors. I too am sorry they are gone, as I am sorry that the four friends I have lost in this business are gone."

- I agree with you again. Anyone who says he or she has never violated the sterile cockpit rule or has never used inappropriate language in the cockpit is not being truthful. But that’s not the point here; the idea is to be able to say “let me tell you why you shouldn’t be doing this…” instead of – “they were wrong and I am always right!”

Take care & fly safe,
av80r

 

[masedogg19]

AV80R, that was great. Gave me chills. Jon was a great guy too. He was an instructor of mine and then a colleague when I began instructing. He was gone for a little while at Sun World. Then, when they went under, he came back and taught again. After a few months he became one of our check airmen at the flight school. He was actually one of the more difficult ones too. But he was fair. I vividly remember exactly where I was when I heard the news of the crash. His wake wasn't a sad dreary day. It was a celebration that included the dedication of a hangar in his honor. Basically, he was a great friend and a great pilot. And I know that I and all of my instructor friends (and many others) miss him.

All I was requesting with that very first comment I made was a little respect for both Kim and Jon. I've seen how other accidents are sometimes spoken about here and I wanted to try and nip that in the bud. Thats all. I agree in that we should all learn from this. Everyone just try and be safe out there.

 

[banned username 1]

After a long day with multiple approaches, fatigue has to be at least a "casual" factor and you would think that the investigators would give it more ink- but it's one of those things that unfortunately, they can't accurately "measure".

It's sad when you get the accident report and read the facts and events as they were played out. What you see is a snapshot in time for individuals in the cold reality of 20-20 hindsight in a comfortable room and a cup of coffee who've compiled the facts and findings into the final analysis.

It's too bad that the aforementioned report will forever be the legacy that the pilots will be remembered by. From the recollections of others who knew the gentlemen, the report portrays a different view of them in that "snapshot" rather than the sum-total of their professional lives. It's a bitter pill to be dissected when things have gone "south" and in some ways, a disservice to their memories. But this is a truth in this business and it's the way that it is.

So now we're to ask, what's the disconnect between the professionals that their peers knew and the guys portrayed in the accident report. How could that happen? Did we just happen to catch them during 15 minutes of laxety?

That's where the fatigue issue comes up. Who of us hasn't turned to our flying partner and said, "Man, I'm having a sinking spell!"? Who hasn't been tired enough to start making mistakes or inattentive or downright silly because of being tired? Perhaps the lesson that this tragedy can teach us all is that in spite of being conscientious and professional, we can all end up "taken out of context" if things go wrong and we can't make them right. The only way to ensure that it doesn't happen, is to be true to ourselves and use the same line to scheduling and management that we hammer into our dating teenagers: "No means NO".

 

[Bryan D]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.:angryfire