NTSB Final Report on Corporate Airlines 5966

[masedogg19]

"I was extremely disappointed in what I heard" on the cockpit voice recorder, acting NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said. "From the beginning to the end, it was unprofessional."

Yes I'm quite capable of reading.....saw it the first time you posted it too.....but I disagree quite a bit with that statement.....

 

[apache]

OK....as I said before....I have the entire initial report...pictures and everything....I just read the transcript.....at NO time during the final approach phase were they joking or cursing at each other.....nor were they joking or cursing or ignoring the plane's warning system about approaching ground below.....the final report seems a little off.........

You, sir, are correct. This report is an abomination. You did not see the NTSB use phrases like "lack of professionalism" with regard to the AA crew in Little Rock. The board would never accuse Col. "management" Dickweed and his new-hire FO of lack of professionalism when they decided to land in a 55-knot crosswind and thunderstorm. These poor corpex guys have been dumped on because they were at the bottom of the food chain in respect in this industry. Others partially at fault have escaped blame, in my opinion.

 

[Lequip]

Yes I'm quite capable of reading.....saw it the first time you posted it too.....but I disagree quite a bit with that statement.....

Disagree all you want. He is the chairman of the NTSB and your a 1500 hour Willie FO. I think I know whose opinion I trust and it sure isn't yours!


"I was extremely disappointed in what I heard" on the cockpit voice recorder, acting NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said. "From the beginning to the end, it was unprofessional."

Moderator reviewed...

 

[Lequip]

You, sir, are correct. This report is an abomination. You did not see the NTSB use phrases like "lack of professionalism" with regard to the AA crew in Little Rock. The board would never accuse Col. "management" Dickweed and his new-hire FO of lack of professionalism when they decided to land in a 55-knot crosswind and thunderstorm. These poor corpex guys have been dumped on because they were at the bottom of the food chain in respect in this industry. Others partially at fault have escaped blame, in my opinion.

Others partially at fault? Please explain. Who else is at fault here and don't play the fatigue card here. These pilots plain and simple screwd up big time. This one almost tops Pinnacles FL410 crash as one of the grossest examples of pilot incompetence and unprofessionalism. Just like playing the "race card" fatigue is nothing more than scapegoae in this case.

"I was extremely disappointed in what I heard" on the cockpit voice recorder, acting NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said. "From the beginning to the end, it was unprofessional."

Moderator reviewed...

 

[masedogg19]

Wow....you're (not your) right...I'm wrong....the NTSB knows everything and always makes the correct proclamation and we should hold it on the same level as the Bible and the Constitution...............

 

[Rogue5]

Lequip, besides being an ass, you're uninformed:

If you watch the NTSB's webcast, the vast majority of the human factors testimony from the investigative team to the Board consisted of a discussion about fatigue and crew-rest requirements and its probable influence in this accident.

To take one quote from a newspaper article out of context and disregard the other findings of the Board smacks of ignorance, arrogance, and the lack of any desire to address ALL causal factors in order to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.

THAT is truly "unprofessional."

 

[BoilerUP]

The story on the front page of the USA Today about this accident was a piss-poor excuse fior objective journalism.

Did the flight crew screw up? Yeah, probably - most flight crews involved in an accident do. The questions to be asked are "Why did they screw up?" and "What are the contributing factors?" Its really easy to say they descended below MDA prior to being legal and/or safe, but why did they do that? To ignore the human factors role fatigue plays in accidents just like this would be a failure to find the systemic cause of these types of events.

 

[CA1900]

The story on the front page of the USA Today about this accident was a piss-poor excuse for objective journalism.

That pretty well sums up USA Today in general. It's a piss-poor excuse for a newspaper anyway.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

All humans make mistakes.
Mistakes in airplanes kill.
Mistakes in other occupations don't.

A human in an airplane WILL make a mistake on time or another. It's a matter of chance of whether it will be onethat is life-ending or not.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Interesting that a greyhound bus driver has more strict rest and fatigue rules than we do! Is the DOT more intelligent than the FAA?

 

[banned username 1]

Pilot "Pushing"

Ever since some observant manager deduced that it required pilots to fly their airplanes around, there have been those who attempted to squeeze a little more productivity out of us. One way to do it is by building schedules or requiring availability that are beyond the boundries of good sense regarding fatigue.

What do we do? It's easier said than done, to quote the reverse side of out medicals and its admonition regarding flying with a known physical impairment. If you do not have a strong representative union to stand up for you, here's what I'd recommend: Document, document, document what the company does to people with times, dates and names. When you have a compelling dossier, take it to the FAA as a whistleblower.

If somehow, your employer finds out who blew that whistle and causes you grief, there are laws that can protect those who report abuse. Frankly, a settlement with punitive damages for seeking retribution on an employee would be like winning a small Lotto.

 

[AV80R]

Well, I read the NTSB findings and must say it wasn’t easy.

I was very fortunate to have known Kim, I never met Jonathan but I heard he was a great guy as well. I did some of Kim’s sim training and one or maybe two of his line checks – You’ll probably be surprised to hear this but I was always impressed with his “professional demeanor.” Based on the NTSB report you’d think that’s impossible but I can assure you - Kim was a great and a professional aviator.

Obviously things went out of control on this flight; I wasn’t there and I’m not sure exactly what happened or more importantly why it happened (I’m talking about the “unprofessional” behavior as it is termed by the NTSB)

I have no doubt that both Kim and Jonathan would have wanted for us to learn from their mistakes (and yes, I believe serious mistakes were made). For their sake and for the sake of the passengers who perished or who were injured - we all must learn from this.

I am amazed the NTSB did not focus on crew fatigue more than they did. C’mon, 6th approach for the day in marginal weather is not safe! They were exhausted for sure! Additionally, I think that sometimes pilots who are VERY professional and who always fly “by-the-book” become disillusioned with the conditions the work under, with the way they are treated by their employers, their passengers, etc, etc and begin to give up on themselves. Please bear in mind that I am only speculating here but I’m thinking that maybe sometimes people lose their hope when they begin to reason that since nobody gives a da** about them why should they? Again, I am NOT using this as an excuse but I think every now and then people just give up and unfortunately that’s when “sh** hits the fan.”

So what’s my point? Well, I agree with “LJDRV” post on different ways of trying to fight fatigue. I also think we all must keep an eye on each other for signs of exhaustion, resignation, depression or just plain “blues.” We are all prone to it and I remember that not too long ago I felt like giving up on aviation because “flying is great but I have to eat too.”

I am sure the many years Kim spent flying the Jetstream for minimum wage salary, where minimum rest was the norm rather than exception to the rule, where the wx usually sucks, and where there didn’t seem to be any improvements in sight probably made him feel much unappreciated. Again, I hope you all realize that I do NOT believe being tired or underpaid is an excuse for “unprofessional behavior” – I am just saying people are HUMAN and therefore we all need to keep an eye on each other and maybe be ready to support each other when needed.

You know, the more I read my own post the less I know what I am trying to say. Basically, I miss my friend and I know he would have wanted us to learn from this, that’s all!

Ps. A month or so ago, I had Kim Sasse’s brother on one of my flights out of Atlanta and for a brief moment I was in a state of shock because I thought Kim was back! His brother is a couple of years older but he looks just like him; you’d think they were identical twin brothers! I was able to exchange a few words with him and could tell he misses his brother very dearly. I told him that Kim was a great person, well-liked by everyone and that each time I flew with him he was very knowledgeable and professional to the core. And I meant what I said!

A really spooky part of this accident is the nick-name many gate agents at Corpex used for Kim – “JFK junior!” He was tall and jovial, had same demeanor and mannerisms as JFK junior; unfortunately they both perished in an aircraft crash!

av8or

 

[81Horse]

AV8OR, condolences on the loss of your colleagues.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

AV8OR:

A better post could not have been written. I hope that none of my comments came off as insulting the crew, indeed, I think no one here means any disrespect. We really have to learn from this so that we don't lose more guys like these.

I have no doubt they both were professionals. All of us... And I do mean ALL OF US... Have moments when we are not at our best. These guys just got caught in one of those moments and events caught up with them. This accident could happen to anyone, be they jet jockeys, freight dogs, scooter trash or weekend warriors. I too am sorry they are gone, as I am sorry that the four friends I have lost in this business are gone.

Like I said... Learning from it is the only thing that we can do.

 

[AV80R]

Deleted by av80r