NPA and ALPA move closer to merger

[Ty Webb]

I will vote in house union the first chance I get.

You'd better hope for something similar to the APA . . . because if you get something like the NPA, which is what we have, you'll understand why we're going ALPA.

After 4 years of mediated negotiations, , hostage-taking, and a wholesale dismantling of our existing contract, we're making a necessary and badly-needed change. We've already had C&BL changes and 2 BoD recalls . . . . the NPA has run its course.

Great timing, though . . . . fuel at a low, going into positive earnings and a labor-friendly administration . . . now if the rest of the pilot group can remember where they left their nuts, we'll be in good shape.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Come on over to spend your dues money supporting all of the regional carriers that are happy to join since that is where ALPA's focus is...

YGBSM. You obviously haven't been to a BoD and heard the regional guys rant and rave about how the legacy guys run the ALPA world at their expense.

Ahhh...ignorance is bliss.

 

[JoeMerchant]

C


We're about to set the record for longest contract negotiations in RLA history here with the NPA, and you want to talk about how long the PCL guys have been negotiating? At least they're close to getting an agreement. We've only TA'd 5 crappy sections.

Should be quick now that your labor friendly NMB is in power.....I thought dragged out negotiations would become a thing of the past now that the annointed one has assumed the thrown....

 

[JoeMerchant]

YGBSM. You obviously haven't been to a BoD and heard the regional guys rant and rave about how the legacy guys run the ALPA world at their expense.

Ahhh...ignorance is bliss.

...actually it's 50+ carriers all negotiating for themselves....It's a free for all in ALPA.....

 

[PCL_128]

Should be quick now that your labor friendly NMB is in power.....I thought dragged out negotiations would become a thing of the past now that the annointed one has assumed the thrown....

The NMB appointment hasn't been made yet. We'll still probably break the record, because even a new NMB won't immediately release us. Part of the problem is an incompetent union in our case. After 5 years, we still only have 5 sections TA'd. The most pro-labor NMB in history won't release you when you're too incompetent to do better than that.

 

[TWA Dude]

Why do you feel as a member you have no responsibility....??

It's like we're talking a different language here. We both agree on what the current problem is but you don't seem to understand how to solve it. Telling a bunch of people they need to wake up and get more involved in their union isn't an effective way to get that result. Shaming people makes them disconnect or do just the minimum to alleviate that shame. This is the approach you seem to be trying.

People will follow effective leadership because it makes them feel good to do so. If there's no effective leaders than nothing will change for us. I have no idea how to find effective leaders if they refuse to reveal themselves. We're not the only group to have this problem, BTW. Few airlines have good leaders either and their BOD's don't seem to have much luck finding decent CEOs.

 

[Max Powers]

It's like we're talking a different language here. We both agree on what the current problem is but you don't seem to understand how to solve it. Telling a bunch of people they need to wake up and get more involved in their union isn't an effective way to get that result. Shaming people makes them disconnect or do just the minimum to alleviate that shame. This is the approach you seem to be trying.

People will follow effective leadership because it makes them feel good to do so. If there's no effective leaders than nothing will change for us. I have no idea how to find effective leaders if they refuse to reveal themselves. We're not the only group to have this problem, BTW. Few airlines have good leaders either and their BOD's don't seem to have much luck finding decent CEOs.

Your assessment is correct. Sadly however, the majority of AAI pilots follow the George Bush types. Most AAI pilots don't seem to appreciate a thoughtful, pragmatic and methodical approach to a very complex problem. This may be over simplifying; but it seems to be an ingrained southern mentality where: "Union virtue is not appreciated nearly as much as union vice is."

Anyone else agree or disagree?

 

[Lear70]

People will follow effective leadership because it makes them feel good to do so. If there's no effective leaders than nothing will change for us. I have no idea how to find effective leaders if they refuse to reveal themselves. We're not the only group to have this problem, BTW. Few airlines have good leaders either and their BOD's don't seem to have much luck finding decent CEOs.

I had this exact discussion today with T.O. and the ALPA reps at Paschal's...

The pilot group is not going to unify until they have leadership who leads by example. That's just a fact. Rez, you and I agree that followership is required, but it's too big of a leap of faith for the average line pilot to start their own campaign without a leader to sound the charge, not to mention you need to be charging in the same direction to be effective, and that again requires leadership.

The pilot group is not going to get aggressive about contract enforcement until they see and hear about the union LEADERSHIP getting aggressive.

The pilot group is not going to get serious about uniting together until someone stands up and shows a presence, every week, in person, and communicating an exact plan of attack and how the pilots individually fit into the plan.

What this pilot group needs is an effective leader who not only has the skillset to analyze contract language, formulate a negotiating strategy, and effectively negotiate, but who can DELEGATE committee chairs to accomplish those tasks, and trusts them to carry them out so he or she can get out there and accomplish the public work that really unifies the pilot group.

I believe this pilot group desperately WANTS that kind of leadership, but every time someone steps up, 2 other guys who want the position drag him back down, like crabs in a box.

In my opinion, Mike has great things to contribute to the AirTran pilots, but I beleive he needs to chair the NC, and someone wth the skillset to manage, delegate, and lead aggressively needs to be in the president's office. "Each person according to their talents", and all... Just my .02 cents, which won't even buy you a Seattle's Best.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's like we're talking a different language here. We both agree on what the current problem is but you don't seem to understand how to solve it. Telling a bunch of people they need to wake up and get more involved in their union isn't an effective way to get that result. Shaming people makes them disconnect or do just the minimum to alleviate that shame. This is the approach you seem to be trying.

This is FI. There is no leadership here.. The most there is a mirror... If pilots want to shun their career because of what I say or don't say on FI, then they have serious maturing to do....

People will follow effective leadership because it makes them feel good to do so. If there's no effective leaders than nothing will change for us. I have no idea how to find effective leaders if they refuse to reveal themselves. We're not the only group to have this problem, BTW. Few airlines have good leaders either and their BOD's don't seem to have much luck finding decent CEOs.

If you want an effective leader, why not look in the mirror?

Why is that so difficult for AIR LINE PILOTS.... to exercise leadership?

Why do college educated, professional jet pilots turn into boobs when it comes to union affairs and career management....

If every professional airline pilot acted like a leader...just a little bit.... showed up to a union meeting with a leadership mentality... to understand, solve problems, and work as a team....

These are all leadership qualities... why do they exist on the flight deck, but suddenly pilots turn into little boys when it comes to managing the MILLIONS of dollars of their money over their career?

 

[Clyde Frog]

It's true there has been a lack of union leadership at AirTran, no doubt, but by this point self preservation should have taken over. Sadly, it hasn't. We're being led down a path that this group is not prepared for, like sheep to a slaughter.

 

[TWA Dude]

If you want an effective leader, why not look in the mirror?

I don't consider myself qualified to be a union leader. But this conversation isn't about me.

Why is that so difficult for AIR LINE PILOTS.... to exercise leadership?

There's nothing unique here. Many industries and businesses suffer from the same problem.

Why do college educated, professional jet pilots turn into boobs when it comes to union affairs and career management....

Once again, we're not unique. Neither are we superior to other professionals.

If every professional airline pilot acted like a leader...just a little bit.... showed up to a union meeting with a leadership mentality... to understand, solve problems, and work as a team....

I've been to union meetings. Just showing up is meaningless unless the guys up at the front of the room know what they're doing.

These are all leadership qualities... why do they exist on the flight deck, but suddenly pilots turn into little boys when it comes to managing the MILLIONS of dollars of their money over their career?

The dynamic of cockpit leadership and of union leadership is completely different. Many guys I've considered good union reps have a terrible reputation with the FOs who've flown with them. That's just human nature.

But once again you don't seem to be getting it. Effective leaders are few and far in between and the ones amongst pilot groups may have no desire to step up. There's simply nothing you can do about that and complaining on FI won't help.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't consider myself qualified to be a union leader.

Who is qualified to be a union leader?

And if you don't consider yourself, do you expect someone else to?

How long does a pilot group stand around in mass and stare at each other, waiting for someone to volunteer?

But this conversation isn't about me.

This conversation is all about you and nothing but you. I'll continue on......

There's nothing unique here. Many industries and businesses suffer from the same problem.

Then why not make us unique. Why do you assume yourself to mediocrity?

Once again, we're not unique. Neither are we superior to other professionals.

Why the self defeatist attitude? If you feel this way about yourself, then why do you expect someone, anyone to step forward amongst your ranks and do what you will not do. What you refuse to do. What you believe you cannot do...??

I've been to union meetings. Just showing up is meaningless unless the guys up at the front of the room know what they're doing.

Based on your comments above, why would you expect them to know what they are doing? They are not unique. They are you. What makes them different from you, that they WOULD know what they are doing?

The dynamic of cockpit leadership and of union leadership is completely different. Many guys I've considered good union reps have a terrible reputation with the FOs who've flown with them. That's just human nature.

You are correct that union leadership is very different... However, the baisc characterisitics of a leader can be found in both.... Why a line pilot wouldn't use that skillset to adapt to the union mode is interesting... I mean after all, we are talking about a line pilots career earnings here....

But once again you don't seem to be getting it. Effective leaders are few and far in between and the ones amongst pilot groups may have no desire to step up. There's simply nothing you can do about that and complaining on FI won't help.

Agreed... and that is my point....

For you have no room to complain. Especially since you are unwilling to do for yourself what you expect others to do....


How long to you wait for your "Great Union Leader" to take the lead to manage YOUR career?

Your career time is finite. If there is no leader that steps up to handle your career, do you have a grievance? A complaint?

Who amongst your pilot group is required, obligated or mandated to be your effective union leader? As you reach retirement age and no has stepped up to be the union leader you deserve, do you have recourse?

Are you going to litigation? If so? Whom? How?

That is the problem with freedom and liberty in democracy: you get to choose your own leaders. The problem with that is.... you get to choose your own leaders.

 

[FDJ2]

Why the self defeatist attitude? If you feel this way about yourself, then why do you expect someone, anyone to step forward amongst your ranks and do what you will not do. What you refuse to do. What you believe you cannot do...??

Rez, you've touched on one of the three killers of union success. Defeatism. The other two are cynicism and apathy.

If you don't believe in youselves, than why should anyone believe in you.

To our friends at Airtran I can only say that your leadership and faith in yourselves can only come from within. I'm not saying this is the case at Airtran, but no union can overcome rank and file cynicism, defeatism and apathy.

ALPA can help you achieve your goals. ALPA's structure gives local MEC a great deal of autonomy in constructing their negotiating goals and strategies. ALPA can give you the structure to succeed and the resources to succeed, but the end result is yours to achieve. ALPA can not waive a magic wand and make everything better or change the economic realities we all face. ALPA can help you achieve your goals, but make no mistake, ultimately the heavy lifting required to lead Airtran pilots must come from within the Airtran pilot group.

Consider the possibility that your leadership and pilot group may not be the reason you haven't achieved your goals. Perhaps despite their efforts the fine pilots who picked up the mantle of leadership at NPA have seen their best efforts frustrated because the NPA structure and resources have not been up to the task at hand. ALPA has the experience, the resources and the structure to help, but it's up to you to make it happen.

Whichever path you ultimately choose, going it alone or joining ALPA, I wish you luck.

 

[BigMeat]

Ladys and Gentlemen the idea behind Alpa at Airtran is that they will have the resources to stand up to their hard nosed management. LTDs, insurances etc. Ask Spirit how much money they got from ALPA recently. Dont be idiots and think that you can stand up to management during a job action on a shoe string budget and in-house will provide. Yes are there exemptions to this? Of course look at AA. However AA is so big that the pilots can raise the money they need. One thing that AA does not contribute to is ALPA PAC which affects all of us wether you participate or not. Dont think it makes a diff. Look for Obama and Praters pic together recently. Not saying that Im a Prater fan just saying that it does make a diffrence. Good day...

 

[airline#5]

When pilots start taxiing at 2 knots, ie ASA
When pilots do a FLY SAFE campaign, ie ASA

People run the company not mgt. not a union
(any union)..

OK give people credit. If you strike where are you going to work right now? Trust the 169=NO WHERE

How many people would actually strike, because most people here can hardly pay their bills now, and feed the families. A slow down cost the company more. A STRIKE we all lose!![/quote]

NO, NO, NO...SHUT THE AIRLINE DOWN! STATUS QUO AND WE LOSE. JUST END THIS MISERY.

STRIKE!!!

 

[TWA Dude]

Who is qualified to be a union leader?

You know one when you see one.

And if you don't consider yourself, do you expect someone else to?

Hope, not expect.

How long does a pilot group stand around in mass and stare at each other, waiting for someone to volunteer?

Which is worse, poor leadership or no leadership? Try one then the other and you'll know.

Then why not make us unique. Why do you assume yourself to mediocrity?

Non sequitur. There's no correlation between non-uniqueness and mediocrity.

Based on your comments above, why would you expect them to know what they are doing? They are not unique. They are you. What makes them different from you, that they WOULD know what they are doing?

I don't see your logic. In the absence of a leader people will follow just about anybody -- initially. If the leader fails you're back to square one and nothing was gained. If I don't feel qualified to lead a union I'm of no use and could indeed do more harm than good.

You are correct that union leadership is very different... However, the baisc characterisitics of a leader can be found in both.... Why a line pilot wouldn't use that skillset to adapt to the union mode is interesting... I mean after all, we are talking about a line pilots career earnings here....

Once again, I don't see your logic. While every captain is theoretically qualified to lead his ship that ability doesn't necessarily transfer to union leadership. If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

For you have no room to complain. Especially since you are unwilling to do for yourself what you expect others to do....

Whether I complain or not is irrelevent. What do YOU propose to do about it? So far I've read nothing.

How long to you wait for your "Great Union Leader" to take the lead to manage YOUR career?

When one has no choice the choice is easy.

Your career time is finite. If there is no leader that steps up to handle your career, do you have a grievance? A complaint?

Yes. Of course it will do no good but then neither would my other option.

Who amongst your pilot group is required, obligated or mandated to be your effective union leader?

None that I know of.

As you reach retirement age and no has stepped up to be the union leader you deserve, do you have recourse?

No.

That is the problem with freedom and liberty in democracy: you get to choose your own leaders. The problem with that is.... you get to choose your own leaders.

All I've gotten from this social discourse is that if I don't like my leaders I should step up and lead. Great in theory, lousy in reality. I'm rooted in reality.

 

[Lear70]

Rez, TWdude has a point...

The last thing I want is someone who wants to be the leader of the AirTran pilots just because they're angry at the way things were handled in the past and they have an idea of the way they would LIKE things to be handled.

Running a union requires a lot of managerial skills, many of which are NOT in ANY way linked to commanding an aircraft. Some *ARE* linked, but many are not. That's why ALPA has Leadership training for those who have never served in a union capacity, and those classes, in and of themselves, don't qualify you to immediately be a fantastic Leader. Some skills are even what I'd call "innate"; some people are natural leaders, others simply aren't.

One, specific example is the ability to put aside your own belief that "few, if any, can do your job better than you can". That leads to micromanagement, which is part of the problem the NPA has had again, and again, and again, going back to well before I got on property.

The issue we have moving forward with an MEC structure, if we choose to do so, is that the MEC Chairman is appointed from within the MEC. The pilots don't get to specifically choose who is the "Leader", the reps do. That is the one, single thing I don't like about the way ALPA functions. It means that EVERY rep you elect to office starts playing a political game if they want the Chair position, and when pilot leaders play politics, the rank-and-file pilots lose.

The only way to avoid that is to elect an ENTIRE BoD who thinks exactly the same in terms of goals and the way to accomplish those goals. That's unrealistic.

The whole process is geared improperly for "true" Leadership. So we do the best with what we have to work with, and hope the "good" leaders don't get so bogged down in the politics that they get frustrated and go back to the line.

Some anonymous pilot said it best many years ago: "If someone WANTS to be the union president, they're probably the person you LEAST want in the job".

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez, TWdude has a point...

Does he want to be right or does he want a career?
In the end he had no argument... He can hope for a good union leader, but if none materializes then he is willing to accept whatever his apathy and indifference provides.....

The last thing I want is someone who wants to be the leader of the AirTran pilots just because they're angry at the way things were handled in the past and they have an idea of the way they would LIKE things to be handled.

Is that why you are not a union leader? I don't mean that as a jab... read on...

Running a union requires a lot of managerial skills, many of which are NOT in ANY way linked to commanding an aircraft. Some *ARE* linked, but many are not. That's why ALPA has Leadership training for those who have never served in a union capacity, and those classes, in and of themselves, don't qualify you to immediately be a fantastic Leader. Some skills are even what I'd call "innate"; some people are natural leaders, others simply aren't.

I am not saying anyone in the rank and file should be a union leader...

One, specific example is the ability to put aside your own belief that "few, if any, can do your job better than you can". That leads to micromanagement, which is part of the problem the NPA has had again, and again, and again, going back to well before I got on property.

valid

The issue we have moving forward with an MEC structure, if we choose to do so, is that the MEC Chairman is appointed from within the MEC. The pilots don't get to specifically choose who is the "Leader", the reps do. That is the one, single thing I don't like about the way ALPA functions. It means that EVERY rep you elect to office starts playing a political game if they want the Chair position, and when pilot leaders play politics, the rank-and-file pilots lose.

The pilots can still be influential to how the MEC chair is chosen...

The only way to avoid that is to elect an ENTIRE BoD who thinks exactly the same in terms of goals and the way to accomplish those goals. That's unrealistic.

The whole process is geared improperly for "true" Leadership. So we do the best with what we have to work with, and hope the "good" leaders don't get so bogged down in the politics that they get frustrated and go back to the line.

Some anonymous pilot said it best many years ago: "If someone WANTS to be the union president, they're probably the person you LEAST want in the job".

Look....

There is a mutually symbiotic relationship between the followers and the leaders...

Followership is noting but short bursts of leadership...


The problem is you and TWA dude are playing a mexican standoff with your careers...

Only until a leader steps up are you willing to do something for your career....

You, meaning the rank and file (ALPA members too), aren't even willing to do the basics: voting, attend meeting, support, communication... these are the basics that college educated professionals should understand and actions they should take regardless of who is the leader.

Do college educated professional line pilots not vote because they don't like Mike Best?

"I don't like Mike Best so I am not going to participate in my career!"

Is that the logic of a professional?


This isn't difficult. The advocation here isn't that line pilots give up thier family time and volunter 20 hours a week after flying a full schedule.... rather how about just starting with the basics as mention above?

Is that so hard?

 

[Lear70]

Is that why you are not a union leader? I don't mean that as a jab... read on...

No, if I could hold office being a member in good standing pending grievance but not online, I would. I've done a lot of work for this, and my previous pilot group, I have no aversion to the work required, but I'd be happier if we just had a good contract, I could come to work, do my thing, and go home...

Look....

There is a mutually symbiotic relationship between the followers and the leaders...

Followership is noting but short bursts of leadership...

That's very true.

The problem is you and TWA dude are playing a mexican standoff with your careers...

Only until a leader steps up are you willing to do something for your career....

You, meaning the rank and file (ALPA members too), aren't even willing to do the basics: voting, attend meeting, support, communication... these are the basics that college educated professionals should understand and actions they should take regardless of who is the leader.

TWDude and I are probably two of the people who do those things. I can almost guarantee you that if someone cares enough to get on this forum and debate the issues facing our pilot group, they're more than likely voting, listening to the conference calls, talking to their reps, even some of them attending meetings over on Virginia Ave.

Yes, all those things are necessary, but they have nothing to do with having a Leader in office who can create followership in those who AREN'T already active.

This isn't difficult. The advocation here isn't that line pilots give up thier family time and volunter 20 hours a week after flying a full schedule.... rather how about just starting with the basics as mention above?

Is that so hard?

Again, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. You know how I got to this point, the time I took to analyze T.A. language, taking off days to talk to pilots in ops, etc, etc (and I'm not even going to get into my present "situation").

Many of the AAI guys posting on here are very active, some of them even have in the past or currently occupy a seat on the BoD. You're getting away from the primary issue, and that is having a leader who can get those who AREN'T engaged in their own career on board.

I'd love to hear how... You can only beat the bushes so much to stir the natives, eventually you have to incentivize them if they aren't self-incentivized. Yes, I agree with you that they SHOULD be self-motivated, but most aren't. If you can give me a good way to help change that, I'm all ears.

Otherwise, you're preaching to the choir here, methinks. We're already active...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lear.... and yet they complain...... apathy, defeatism and cynicism......