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NPA and ALPA move closer to merger

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You're right that ALPA is no panacea, but that's not the question before us. The choice we have is between two different unions: ALPA or NPA. The NPA has been an unmitigated disaster. We have had 6 Presidents in the past 10 years, and there have already been several recall petitions for our current President. The average time that a rep serves is only 18 months, even though the terms for office are 2-3 years, depending on the office. Everyone either resigns or is recalled before the completion of their term. This is indicative of a complete structural problem. It's not just individual reps, the whole thing is f---ed up.

Is ALPA perfect? Nope. Is it better than what we've got? No question.


Well if you view recalls as a problem then ALPA is the solution that will be just peachy. ALPA will ignore requests to have a recall agenda item. And the National officers will obstruct recalls by neglecting to enforce the recall provision in the constitution.

To recall reps in ALPA you need to throw out the entire union.
 
Well if you view recalls as a problem then ALPA is the solution that will be just peachy. ALPA will ignore requests to have a recall agenda item. And the National officers will obstruct recalls by neglecting to enforce the recall provision in the constitution.

To recall reps in ALPA you need to throw out the entire union.


Where does the Nic award play in all of this that you say?
 
Well if you view recalls as a problem then ALPA is the solution that will be just peachy. ALPA will ignore requests to have a recall agenda item. And the National officers will obstruct recalls by neglecting to enforce the recall provision in the constitution.

To recall reps in ALPA you need to throw out the entire union.

If you dimwitted Easties would learn how to follow the recall procedures, then you could have had your damned recall vote. It's not ALPA's fault that you mouth breathers can't follow a simple procedure.
 
Where does the Nic award play in all of this that you say?

Your question is not germane to the issue of ALPA abiding by its constitution to place a recall item on the agenda upon proper request of a member in good standing. It was the experience of CLT pilots that ALPA denied them their right to recall, and ALPA national refused to enforce its own constitution.

ALPA is replete with the notion that members have to ask ALPA for permission to have the proper ALPA-approved opinion.

Keep propping up the rotten tree. :laugh:
 
If you dimwitted Easties would learn how to follow the recall procedures, then you could have had your damned recall vote. It's not ALPA's fault that you mouth breathers can't follow a simple procedure.

You would make a great senior ALPA rep. :D Since ALPA denies access to its own procedure we took the only recourse available. The NMB provided us the first chance to ever vote on brilliant, evolved elitists.

The NMB is so easy.. even an group of evolution challenged mouth breathers can do it.:D
 
Yeah these guys do not know the by laws at ALPA=

MEC Rules and can make all agreements without votes from the pilots!! ie Midwest !

PCL=Alpa was great for you at PCL=how was the resources for that contract that they still have not gotten.

Why are we running to an airline that other airlines are running from? where does the 3 million that NPA has in the bank go? ALPA NATIONAL?
 
Funny on the front page of majors

TWO MAJORS airlines hating ALPA. How does the 200-300 pilots that are hard core ALPA here, feel about this? You think hundreds or maybe thousands of pilots that have ALPA and do NOT LIKE THEM

DAL,CAL,PCL,MESA,ASA,UAL,Polar,COMAIR,TWA,MIDWEST..??
 
Yeah these guys do not know the by laws at ALPA=

MEC Rules and can make all agreements without votes from the pilots!! ie Midwest !

Not true. Every ALPA MEC now has a MEMRAT policy for contract ratification. Each MEC has a slightly different policy for ratification of side-letters, but all of them have significant restrictions.

PCL=Alpa was great for you at PCL=how was the resources for that contract that they still have not gotten.

ALPA resources were great at PCL. No one at Pinnacle ever feared for their job like pilots here do every day. I think you'll find that their new agreement will come very soon, and it will contain massive improvements.

Why are we running to an airline that other airlines are running from?

More airlines have joined ALPA than left in the last few years. There are no serious decert campaigns going on right now.

where does the 3 million that NPA has in the bank go? ALPA NATIONAL?

I already answered that for you in the other thread that you started: it stays in our own MEC accounts. Part of it will go into a special merger fund so we never have to be assessed in the case of a merger, and the rest will go in the Special MEC Reserve Account (basically the savings account).
 
More airlines have join ALPA in the last few years= OK Colgan...Skywest said no thanks..

PCL gettting a contract with ALPA resources you guys brag about= How many YEARS has it been. 3-5 years for the pinnacle pilots? ALPA is strong arming the management right?

Yeah ask the DAL pilots about their MEC power, Midwest MEC? UAL MEC? CAL MEC?
 
More airlines have join ALPA in the last few years= OK Colgan...Skywest said no thanks..

Colgan, Commutair, Capital Cargo, Evergreen, etc...

PCL gettting a contract with ALPA resources you guys brag about= How many YEARS has it been. 3-5 years for the pinnacle pilots? ALPA is strong arming the management right?

We're about to set the record for longest contract negotiations in RLA history here with the NPA, and you want to talk about how long the PCL guys have been negotiating? At least they're close to getting an agreement. We've only TA'd 5 crappy sections.

Yeah ask the DAL pilots about their MEC power, Midwest MEC? UAL MEC? CAL MEC?

I think you'd find that the vast majority of the pilots at those airlines are pretty happy with their ALPA representation and wouldn't want anything to do with an independent union.
 
What is the status of the contract negotiations? The company does not and will not negotiate. Why? Why should they, there is currently no motivation for them to negotiate since there has been no real pressure from the pilot group to negotiate. The time has come to get a new plan, the current one is not working.
 
I would like to know from those opposed to merging with ALPA, how does the NPA become effective. Right now SK and KG can get pretty much what they want and give nothing in return. I look to the backlog of grievances that indicate their attitude toward the NPA.
 
Where do you expect to find this greatness?
Anywhere I can!
It is a combined effort... we don't have the entire country to select our union leadership... In addition, most leaders have paid followers...
Yes, it's a combined effort, but it has to start somewhere and that's where leadership comes in.
In my opinion, the followership is going to have to take more responsibility....
What good does it do to blame the rank-and-file pilots? You can blame whomever you wish if it makes you feel better but the way to effect change is to have the right leader get the rank-and-file moving. Motivation isn't enough; the efforts have to be organized and directed.
What are the options? Hope that the next elected pilot on our seniority list is "the one"?
This is the whole point of my lament: such leadership is lacking. If you truly feel the problem lies with the rank-and-file then perhaps YOU should be the one to lead and inspire them. Sitting here blaming pilots for inaction is simply not effective strategy.

Don't tell pilots they have to do more. Show them!
 
The NPA can only be effective with a unified pilot group - something that we haven't really ever had. I also think that the NPA has played nice for too long and should have initiated a push for self help. Maybe taken a strike vote so the company knows that we were serious about moving forward. As it is right now, they are too afraid to even take a strike vote - doesn't send a very strong message to management.

I am by no means saying that the NPA has done a good job, I just tend to think it's our own (pilots) fault and not the fault of the union. I don't think going ALPA will change anything.
 
Anywhere I can!

Does that include yourself?



Yes, it's a combined effort, but it has to start somewhere and that's where leadership comes in.


And what if that leadership doesn't happen? Then what?




What good does it do to blame the rank-and-file pilots? You can blame whomever you wish if it makes you feel better but the way to effect change is to have the right leader get the rank-and-file moving. Motivation isn't enough; the efforts have to be organized and directed.

Have you ever taken CRM? What is right, not who is wrong..



This is the whole point of my lament: such leadership is lacking. If you truly feel the problem lies with the rank-and-file then perhaps YOU should be the one to lead and inspire them. Sitting here blaming pilots for inaction is simply not effective strategy.

Again, I am not blaming anyone... but there seems to a serious problem here....

1. Lack of leadership
2. Membership apathy.

What union members do is treat their union like a commercial service. They pay their money, they want an ROI. Since when was democracy a paid service?

Has this ever worked?

Said another way... can you name three union leaders that had this greatness that you expect?
Don't tell pilots they have to do more. Show them!


Why do you feel as a member you have no responsibility....??
 
When pilots start taxiing at 2 knots, ie ASA
When pilots do a FLY SAFE campaign, ie ASA

People run the company not mgt. not a union
(any union)..

OK give people credit. If you strike where are you going to work right now? Trust the 169=NO WHERE

How many people would actually strike, because most people here can hardly pay their bills now, and feed the families. A slow down cost the company more. A STRIKE we all lose!!
 
.Skywest said no thanks..

It's my understanding that the Skywest pilots voted down union representation altogether . . . . that doesn't say anything about ALPA. Same with Jet Blue.

Scarlet,you have yet to articulate a single valid argument for keeping NPA.

Have you lifted ONE limp wrist to do anything to improve the NPA? Have you served on a single committee, or done anything other than run your mouth about ALPA? I'm guessing not. I'm guessing also that you are on Klaus' Pet Advisory Board.

I think it's way past time to invoke Murphy's Rule about arguing with a fool, and consider this conversation closed.

Seeeee Ya. . . . Wouldn't want to beeee ya.

TW
 
When pilots start taxiing at 2 knots, ie ASA
When pilots do a FLY SAFE campaign, ie ASA

and when its over, the pilots need a bargaining agent.

People run the company not mgt. not a union
(any union)..

wrong.

OK give people credit. If you strike where are you going to work right now? Trust the 169=NO WHERE

How many people would actually strike, because most people here can hardly pay their bills now, and feed the families. A slow down cost the company more. A STRIKE we all lose!!

The NPA doesn't have the money to strike! ALPA does!
 
A STRIKE we all lose!!
The point of a STRIKE is not to go on strike for 3 months to drive the company into bankruptcy. The point of a STRIKE is to convince the company that we have enough unity to actually walk, and the company realizing the $20-25 million a year in gains we are asking for in the next contract is not unreasonable and would cost less than a strike of any duration due to bad publicity and ceased operations.

I want the company to do well financially (aka SW for 30+ years) so there is more to go after in future contracts. We should want and act professionally to help the company generate the profitability that is being predicted by the analysts for Airtran for 2009. If we actually make the $140 million net profit that is being predicted (which would by far be our largest ever), our negotiating committee would have more leverage than they have had over the last 4 years. The SWAPA president even said on the NPA conference call a couple weeks ago that company profitability has been one of the keys to SWAPA's success over the years.

Sometimes management might need a little prodding. Our management might need a little more than average. The NMB board shifting towards the left over the next couple months as Obama's appointments settle in should give all unions a little more control of the timing of the negotiation process under the RLA.
 
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Come on over Air Tran, you have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us. You will see first hand how limp this poor excuse for a union is. Come on over to spend your dues money supporting all of the regional carriers that are happy to join since that is where ALPA's focus is and why shouldn't it be as us "legacy guys" (and gals) are now the minority within the union. Yeah come on in the waters fine.

I will vote in house union the first chance I get.
 

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