Not trying to be mean....

[Benhuntn]

Mil guys you gotta hate'em

 

[AdlerDriver]

There’s another aspect to this discussion:
Mil pilots can’t always align the planets to get out/retire/switch from full time Guard to part-time at the exact time the airlines are hiring. The military is a great profession for a pilot but most will find themselves at the end of their career, retired in their mid-40s looking for work. If that happens to be during a hiring lull with the airlines, he’s hosed (assuming he wants to fly civilian). So some have had to jump when they have a chance to grab a job they’ll (hopefully) be able to do until they’re 60 (?65 – whatever). That chance may come when they have several years left to fulfill the requirements for a full 20 year military pension. That pension won’t pay all the bills (not even close) so he’s going to need something else and a job at Fedex/SWA/wherever is a great opportunity to begin a second career.

I know several guys who got out, got a line number, maybe finished probation and then went on mil leave to finish their 20 years. In this day and age, are you going to fault them or call that “milking the system”? That pension may be the only thing they can count on down the line at the rate things are going. You want that mil pilot and his family to pass that up because a side benefit of this plan happens to be returning with better seniority or missing out on a few Christmas’ in the crash pad?

Chances are, with the ops temp as it is, he’s probably missing Christmas or Thanksgiving anyway. His “crash pad” happens to be a tent, alert shack or something similar. Not to mention the threat is a lot higher while deployed than a overfilled pad, an AM call from skeds or walking in on a roommate rubbing one out with Miss September (GAWD - I still have uke: nightmares). Bogus mil leave around the holidays is BS. It’s also not done by most. The guys that boast about doing it lack as much smarts as they do integrity. Those few force the rest of us to have to defend what should really require no defense at all.

 

[Networ-King]

well said adler....

And it was miss october and I already apologized about that a thousand times.

 

[Huck]

That pension may be the only thing they can count on down the line

My uncle just retired after 20 years at UAL, and he's living off his military pension and the scraps from the UAL debacle....

We all thought he was nuts, taking a helo slot in the ARMY guard after getting hired at UAL. He spent how ever many months in Mother Rucker learning helos (he was a C-130 pilot in Viet Nam before that). But the AF Guard wouldn't take him, and he wanted his pension. Look at where he'd be without it.

 

[V1cutsrfun]

Ok, what is up with all of the miltary folks getting great avation jobs and then going on miltary leave? It's great that you protecting our country, but don't you think your milking the system? I've ran into so many miltary guy's that keep going back to active duty for 3 and 4 tours, just so when they come back there senroity number is great or they hold out for bigger iron. I've been seening this for some time and I just don't get it. Why are you doing this?

I'm all for the miltary, I tried and didn't get in. Very long stroy. I'm not dogging anyone or any branch, I'm just wondering is it just me? I've asked some of the miltary guy's and they say just so they can get a kick butt schedual. That is just for the wrong reasons.

Well...I can't believe this. On Thanksgiving weekend I'm reading this?!!?!??!

Ok, so they gained some senority, I'll gladly give a higher quality of life to those that serve so that I my kids may have freedom.

Do us all a favor, go rent the box set of Band of Brothers and in particular watch the episodes on the Bastogne, or better known as The Battle of the Bulge. A higher quality of life for our (thankfully) returning service men and women abroad is just a small payback for living in a tent on the other side of the world, away from their spouses and children, under constant threats of attack and loss of life.

Perhaps a little graditude on Thanksgiving weekend would be in order.

To all that serve....Welcome home.:beer: We all owe a huge debt of graditude.

If you can read this thank a teacher....If you read it in English, Thank a Vet.

V1

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

For me, drill pay was the only thing that kept me solvent during my first year at Trans States. I do still take as much military leave as I can because I like it and it pays 2-3 times as much as my "real" job. I'm sorry if that doesn't meet with your approval. If you're really upset, you could lobby congress to get the law changed...

When are you coming back to CIV line flying? When you can hold Capt and log PIC?

To the other 99% Armed Forces, thank you for your service... !!


Let's also recall the Air Line Pilots of North American, ATA and the like, including DHL crew that took a hit, who are flying our troops to from the "conflict areas"

 

[mach zero]

Let's also recall the Air Line Pilots of North American, ATA and the like, including DHL crew that took a hit, who are flying our troops to from the "conflict areas"[/quote]

Yep...make that multiple hits on ATA birds. I know I saw the pictures and talked to multiple fellow ATA pilots that have taken fire.

 

[AdlerDriver]

When are you coming back to CIV line flying? When you can hold Capt and log PIC?

To the other 99% Armed Forces, thank you for your service... !!


Let's also recall the Air Line Pilots of North American, ATA and the like, including DHL crew that took a hit, who are flying our troops to from the "conflict areas"

I’m having a little trouble why you have a problem with this. The first year pay at Trans States was/is probably a joke. Why should this guy subject himself to that if he has a choice? Just because others don't have the same choice, he has to eat sh!t too? If he's using bogus mil leave to avoid holiday duty, that's one thing. If he's making a choice to replace X number of Trans States work days with days at his Guard unit because the money's better, he likes it and oh, BTW he HAS to in order to stay current and fulfill his requirements - why is that a problem? He is fortunate to have a Guard job and the U.S. is fortunate to have folks like him willing to sacrifice when/if he's called on. If he can get some more $$ out of the deal, well - that's just a side benefit of his service. No one MADE the new hires at Trans States get hired there and accept the wages. They could have joined the military and had the same choices as this guy you're b!tching about. Life ain't fair but it generally works out about right. We all end up paying dues one way or the other. It might be combat, deployments, family separation, etc or it might be low wages, slugging it out as a CFI, single pilot freight - you name it. Whatever "dues" you feel this guy has avoided paying has been more than settled up with his past and future service.

Let's also recall the Air Line Pilots of North American, ATA and the like, including DHL crew that took a hit, who are flying our troops to from the "conflict areas"

Yep...make that multiple hits on ATA birds. I know I saw the pictures and talked to multiple fellow ATA pilots that have taken fire.

This whole thing makes me scratch my head. Delivering people or boxes to someplace in a civilian aircraft that's getting shot at is ludicrous. The FIRST time an ATA aircraft got shot at should have been the last. If they're continuing to fly in the face of actual fire then they are stupid. That's not something to be held up as some kind of trophy. If the threat is that high then the aircraft should be flown into a low threat area and whatever they're carrying transported via other means. The troops on board don't deserve to die on their way to the battle because some idiot pilot doesn't have the common sense to wave the BS flag on the issue of flying somewhere where he and his passengers are going to be shot at.
We're not talking about an F-16 supporting troops in contact or delivering a PGM to a high priority target. It's a frickin' airliner. If ATA jets continue to come back with holes in them, then we have an absolutely laughable example of poor ORM (operational risk management). There's no way the ends justify the means.

 

[Scrapdog]

Adler - extremely well put.

 

[Whine Lover]

Amen.

To the People who defend this Country:

THANK YOU.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand the intent of the question originally posed. Nevertheless, it is a ridiculous query.

Go ahead and do the same thing that you would question others for ...I will praise you much more than I would EVER try to denigrate you.

YKW

 

[millhouse21]

Paid my dues

You know, I wasn't sure how to respond to some of the the stuff coming across on this thread for a while. First off, I didn't get "some sweet aviation job" I got a job at Trans States. For you guys who know what that means, drill pay was the difference between personal bankruptcy and solvency. Also, the periods of AT/ADT that I did were great but they weren't free. I'm not sure but I get the impression from this board that you think I spent my time on the beach hanging out with hot chicks in bikinis. I wish. I spent most of that time making power point slides and other stuff.

As far as paying my dues, I spent many years eating dirt and living on ships as an NFO. I know that most of you think that's not worth anything so, for you, I spent many years CFIing and flying checks paying my dues again to get where I am. If, after all that, my time in the reserves offends you so much, I wish you would let me know. PM me. BTW, I will be in a forward area pretty soon so I might not get back to you for a while. I hope THAT doesn't offend you

Millhouse 21

 

[millhouse21]

When are you coming back to CIV line flying? When you can hold Capt and log PIC?

To the other 99% Armed Forces, thank you for your service... !!


Let's also recall the Air Line Pilots of North American, ATA and the like, including DHL crew that took a hit, who are flying our troops to from the "conflict areas"

I will be back someday. I was a captain once. Does that count? I really hope that someday I might get your approval...

 

[Fox-Tree]

I will be back someday. I was a captain once. Does that count? I really hope that someday I might get your approval...

Don't waste a moment hoping for his approval. Thanks for your service. You hit the nail on the head. Some people on this forum have gotten the impression that guys on mil leave (away from a poorly paying airline job) are on some kind of vacation. It may be fun or professionally satisfying or something else good performing the mission in an F-15 or some other military aircraft but it's still hard, demanding work. That's why it pays pretty well. It's not your fault the management at Trans States refuses to acknowledge the value of their pilots and their skills. At least the military does (to some extent).

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The impression was given that you joined TSA and decided that the pay was no good so you got a guard/reserve job to pay the bills. So why join TSA?

The pay not enough? There are plenty of guys that are flying those crap wages and they don't have anyway to supplement thier income.. they are going BK. Lots of Air Line Pilots are on gov't assistance. I'm not saying you should forget the guard and stick it out at TSA, but why join TSA if you aren't really going to fly the line at TSA?

There are a few bad apples out there that join an airline and then leave on MIL duty only to come back when they can hold Capt. It is perceived as gaming the system at your fellow pilots expense.

The MIL guys work hard and sacrifice plenty. No question. There is a profession available to the MIL guys when they are ready to leave active duty. That profession is kept by full time Air Line Pilots....and some of them are all CIV and some are prior MIL. One thing is for sure.. management isn't intrested in making the pilot profession an option after active duty...

 

[AdlerDriver]

The impression was given that you joined TSA and decided that the pay was no good so you got a guard/reserve job to pay the bills. So why join TSA?...

Rez,
Guys don’t get an airline job and then decide to get a Guard/reserve job. If they’re on active duty, most likely they line up the guard job first and then pursue the airlines. If they’re already in the Guard, they get the airline job when they have the qualifications and get hired. Either way, the Guard/Reserve job comes first – not the other way around (in most cases).

Why join TSA? Good question. I would say it’s not the first choice for an experienced mil pilot coming off AD or who has spent a while in the Guard/Reserve. Not everyone can snag a major airline job right out of the chute. So, it’s a way to get some 121 experience and hopefully work toward a better job. I seriously doubt a guy on active duty dreams of getting out and flying RJs for TSA or some other similar airline for the rest of his career. That is an absolutely stupid financial decision if you crunch the numbers.

Given the state of the industry right now, there are not too many pilots willing to get out for just that reason. Most of the former mil pilots who have found themselves flying an RJ probably got out before the sh!t hit the fan after 9/11. Now they’re on plan C, D, E, etc. and that might mean they take advantage of the opportunity a Guard job provides.

The pay not enough? There are plenty of guys that are flying those crap wages and they don't have anyway to supplement thier income.. they are going BK. Lots of Air Line Pilots are on gov't assistance. I'm not saying you should forget the guard and stick it out at TSA, but why join TSA if you aren't really going to fly the line at TSA?
...

No. The pay is not enough. The fact that another pilot doesn’t have the same choices is really not the problem of the military pilot. We all have choices. If the pay isn’t enough, don’t take the job. If you need to supplement, then get a second job. That’s what the Guard job is. Most Guard/Reserve pilots do both – not take mil leave completely until they can hold captain as you are stating. That is a small minority. I usually fly almost a full Fedex schedule and work for the Guard the rest and on some of my days off too.
A mil pilot who has spent 10+ years on active duty and can now get out is taking a huge pay cut to work for TSA. In the “old days” when the majors were hiring, we could take that cut for a year on probation with the knowledge it would get better soon. This isn’t some 20-ish year old kid who is on his first airline job and thinks 18K a year is a step up. We’re talking about a 30+ year old guy who probably has a family and has been making 40-50K (or more if he took a pilot bonus in the military). So….No – the pay is nowhere near enough for an extended number of years. The only way this guy is going to be able to make ends meet and work his transition out of the military and into civilian life is with the Guard/Reserve job.

There are a few bad apples out there that join an airline and then leave on MIL duty only to come back when they can hold Capt. It is perceived as gaming the system at your fellow pilots expense.

The MIL guys work hard and sacrifice plenty. No question. There is a profession available to the MIL guys when they are ready to leave active duty. That profession is kept by full time Air Line Pilots....and some of them are all CIV and some are prior MIL. One thing is for sure.. management isn't intrested in making the pilot profession an option after active duty...

That’s a BS statement. A pilot is not a “bad apple” because he chooses to take mil leave or is activated without a choice. Also, how is that at the “expense” of a fellow pilot? You just don’t like the fact that a pilot who has been away on mil leave hasn’t had to eat sh!t along with you while he was gone. He doesn’t jump ahead of you in seniority. Your upgrade and schedule don’t get affected by him returning from mil leave. If you were senior, you’re still senior. If you’re junior, he’s no different than any other pilot who is senior to you.

What management is interested in is pretty much irrelevant thanks to the laws that govern civilian employers and their military employees. The “profession” you refer to is in a downward spiral for many, many pilots. I’m not sure why a military pilot would choose to enter it if he has a choice. Chances are, they tried to enter it when it looked considerable different than the current state of affairs. Now, they’re just trying to make things work. They happen to have some other options that you don’t.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Adler-

Thanks for the reply...

As I said 99% of the MIL guys are stand up individuals. Just like 99% of the CIV guys.

I've been at plenty of airlines where MIL guys have said with a smirk in the crewroom how they were going to "use" guard/reserve duty to manipulate their schedule. Thier DO/XO/CO is a buddy and they'll get orders...

In all professions, doctor, pilot, MIL officer, what have you, there are a couple of guys who game the system.

My understanding is a MIL guy who intentionally joins TSA or a like carrier with a plan of never flying the line until their seniority is right... Why not let someone else who intends to do the TSA job fly.. In addition, it skews the staffing model and other TSA guys end up picking up the slack...

 

[JFReservist]

1%

Maybe its me, but there's a undercurrent of something going on here... I don't think its jealousy, but its something. For anyone's interest, my airline asked if I was going to stay in the reserve's. I said yes. Whether or not that is a legal question, ehhh. The point is, they didn't have to hire me. First meeting with the chief pilot was "don't abuse MIL LV." I said, okay. The law is very straight forward. I have been gone from my airline for over 7 mos, due to deployment, upgrade, BRAC crap, and another deployment. The happiest people are the dudes below me on the seniority list, since I am no longer in a position to bid until I get a pro check and rgt. Yeah, the pay is better on the other side of the house, but career day was the same for everyone. If you don't like what the 1% are doing, walk a mile in their shoes. Maybe they're flying a cap over grandma's house on Christmas in exchange for scamming MIL LV during the holidays. Point is, they are probably doing a lot more than you think. You know, defending America and all...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

First meeting with the chief pilot was "don't abuse MIL LV." I said, okay.

Its too bad there were guys in the past that created the need in your CP's mind to have to warn you not to abuse MIL leave, when you never had. 1% ruining it for the other 99%. IOW if abusing MIL was never a problem why would the CP bring it up.....

Maybe they're flying a cap over grandma's house on Christmas in exchange for scamming MIL LV during the holidays. Point is, they are probably doing a lot more than you think. You know, defending America and all...

If he was flying CAP over G-ma's house then he wouldn't be gaming the system. Gaming the system isn't defending America and all..... it is gaming the system....

 

[AdlerDriver]

Okay, Rez. You're right. There are a minority of guys who "scam" and get holidays off or some other example of gaming the system. They are the reason we get the new hire brief about mil leave abuse. Let’s call them "apples" (bad apples if you like).

Just to be realistic and make sure we all are talking about reality: Even if the DO/XO/CO is his brother, NO ONE gets questionable orders cut that are long enough to allow them to get hired, go on mil leave and come back as a Captain. If someone is out for years at a pop, their mil leave is legit. period - dot. So, let’s call them oranges.

You want to b!tch, make sure your talking about the right fruit - because up to now you've been going back and forth between the apples and oranges. Who are you complaining about? You want to whine about a guy with a friend in high places who cuts him orders when he wants so he can be home for the holidays, I'll stand right next to you and do the same.

You want to make a stink about a guy who gets hired and then goes on 3 years of active duty (whether that was his plan when he got hired or not) - well, you'll be standing alone. No one "makes up" three years of orders, no matter who their friends are.

We all have to pay some dues to get a decent aviation job (and right now, some will never get one, no matter how much they pay). Most civilians certainly have paid theirs if they end up at a good job. By the time a mil guy can apply and get hired by an airline (any airline), he’s already paid his in the form of a long service to his country (and all the baggage that goes along with it). He probably wouldn’t leave the service if he had to pay another set of “dues” all over again the same as a civilian “paid” to get to the same place. He gets out with the plan to supplement his income with Guard pay or go on mil leave and return with better seniority. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sounds to me like you want this guy to pay double. Maybe you could give him a little credit for his first “dues installment” even if you don’t really appreciate all that it entails.

I’m starting to get a visual of a little “Rez” on the playground, whining to his mommy about the kid that’s on the swing he wants. “It’s not faiiiiiiiiiiiiiir”. And you were right – it’s not. Like JFR….. said: We all went to the same career day. I’m willing to bet that you’re senior to quite a few military guys your age thanks to the career path you took. You have choices they don’t thanks to the path you took and the same holds true for them.

 

[Benhuntn]

If those dammm people didn't join the military there would be peace for all the world....I thank yank and bank for pointing out the evil those 4 mil guy/gals are doing to his senority system besides the evil they do throughout the world. God Bless you yank and bank. Hope you have another post before Christmas comes.