Not Paying Union Dues

[TWA Dude]

I think the pilots are are the ones motivated to keep ALPA off property. And wisely so.

There are two types of airlines: those with union pilots and those that will be. Methinks there must be some reason for that. Try to figure it out on your own and you'll be happier.

 

[BoilerUP]

And how many industry leading contracts since then has ALPA wrestled out of management?

Expressjet and FedEx.

What are ALPA's thoughts on the record setting givebacks?

Are you referring to ALPA (the thousands of members) or ALPA National? On the national level I'm pretty sure Capt. Prater has said concessions are pretty much through and that ALPA will fight hard to get back what they gave up. On the member level, well you can figure out what we think about 'record setting givebacks' for yourself.

 

[CopilotDoug]

You're right PCL128, I am a moron for debating an ALPA rep such as yourself. I wouldn't expect you to part ways on your opinions, ill-conceived as they may be. I never held Union reps in high regard and you haven't changed my position. By the way, you never justified Woerth's $350,000 paycheck. I bet he'll go back to flying the line with NWA since ALPA has done so much to improve pay and working conditions there.

 

[PCL_128]

You're right PCL128, I am a moron for debating an ALPA rep such as yourself. I wouldn't expect you to part ways on your opinions, ill-conceived as they may be. I never held Union reps in high regard and you haven't changed my position.

No one will ever be able to change your position. You're the kind of guy that blames everyone else for everything. You'll never look at yourself to see if there's a problem. Have you ever volunteered for a committee? Ever run for an elected ALPA position? How many Local Council meetings have you attended? Have you voted in every election? Do you contribute to ALPA-PAC? These are the things that make a difference. Until you do all of this, then you are the problem, not ALPA. ALPA is made up of volunteers. ALPA work gets done when the membership puts their time into the cause.

By the way, you never justified Woerth's $350,000 paycheck.

Captain Woerth has averaged 21 days off a year since taking office. The rest of the time he is picketing, attending meetings, testifying on Capital Hill, lobbying for issues that affect air line pilots, etc... He is responsible for overseeing the largest union of air line pilots in the world. He has the responsibility of looking out for the careers of 66,000 members. I think his responsibility and extra work earn him a little bit more than he would make flying the line.

I bet he'll go back to flying the line with NWA since ALPA has done so much to improve pay and working conditions there.

Captain Woerth has worked his ass off for this profession for the past 18 years. I think he's deserving of a retirement.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If your going to credit those contracts to ALPA you better also credit the aftermath to ALPA as well. ALPA's "success" at an airline is tied to the financial success of said airline, nothing more, nothing less (see FedEx, UPS, SWA ((which also happens to be SWAPA)) )

So when your Mom brings home the groceries do you blame her because the fruit is sour? Does your Mom make gruit

The reason for ALPA being born was Safety. That issue has been addressed, and continual refinements are being made. Tell me what "Crimes and Fires" are plaguing airlines today that necessitate ALPA's existence? Skywest doesn't seem to need ALPA and they're doing pretty well.

What refeinements are being made. Tell what you know. ALPA was born in part of safety. It was also born in part to pilots not having PIC authority and earning a livable wage.

Well Martha Stewart, I know you're going to tell me it's NOT going to salaries. It's probably going to the ALPA stickers and Mousepads which are being handed out at groundschools. I'd like you to justify why Woerth receives over half a million dollars in annual compensation? Where does that salary money come from again?

I told you to get educated first... it is still your choice..

 

[CopilotDoug]

What refinements are being made. Tell what you know. ALPA was born in part of safety.

To touch the tip of the iceberg, cockpit automation and navigation equipment.

It was also born in part to pilots not having PIC authority and earning a livable wage.

Does ALPA contend that first year pay at ANY regional is "liveable" ?

 

[HelloNewman]

There are two types of airlines: those with union pilots and those that will be. Methinks there must be some reason for that. Try to figure it out on your own and you'll be happier.

Nah don't think it will happen anytime soon at SkyWest. If it does though I think that those who didn't vote for it won't have to pay dues. I have figured out that we are happier without one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

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To touch the tip of the iceberg, cockpit automation and navigation equipment.

Yeah they had a part in that... but that is also of big intrest to the manufactures.... Why not try something that is primarily a ALPA issues like fatigue or LAHSO...


Does ALPA contend that first year pay at ANY regional is "liveable" ?

I guess.. I mean all the pilots at all the regionals voted yes on the contracts they are currently working under. Only then was the contract sent to ALPA national. The MEC said..this is what our pilots want..please review and sign.

So when you go to work as the pilots you are flying with "Do you contend that first year pay at THIS regional is "liveable" ?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Whatever guys. I don't need ALPA to think for me or tell me how to vote. As Newman knows, life is pretty good without ALPA. Should Skywest ever unionize, they'd be wise to have an in house union and not ALPA.

I want to leave you all with one final note: Hitler had a strong following of impressionable children, it looks like ALPA took the same approach with "less gifted" pilots. I think I hear Duane Worthless laughing his way to the bank...

Here's to not paying ALPA dues and Lovin' It !!!:beer:

 

[merlindrvr88]

Wake up!!!

No one will ever be able to change your position. You're the kind of guy that blames everyone else for everything. You'll never look at yourself to see if there's a problem. Have you ever volunteered for a committee? Ever run for an elected ALPA position? How many Local Council meetings have you attended? Have you voted in every election? Do you contribute to ALPA-PAC? These are the things that make a difference. Until you do all of this, then you are the problem, not ALPA. ALPA is made up of volunteers. ALPA work gets done when the membership puts their time into the cause.



Captain Woerth has averaged 21 days off a year since taking office. The rest of the time he is picketing, attending meetings, testifying on Capital Hill, lobbying for issues that affect air line pilots, etc... He is responsible for overseeing the largest union of air line pilots in the world. He has the responsibility of looking out for the careers of 66,000 members. I think his responsibility and extra work earn him a little bit more than he would make flying the line.



Captain Woerth has worked his ass off for this profession for the past 18 years. I think he's deserving of a retirement.

First of all, get your facts straight. 21 days off a year!!! Are you that stupid?? Second, I volunteered and it was a joke. Guys are in the union so they do not have to actually work the contract they fight for. In 18 years what has DW actually done. I have some old time USAIR pilots that would like to talk to him. I have some United and Northwest friends also that think ALPO is sh!t. He has the responsibility of looking out for 66,000 pilot jobs.

That number use to be 100,000!!! He has done a wonderful job!!

ALPO is made of volunteers!?! Are you sure??? They get something for their work, noone in this business does it for free. Why should he get more than a line pilot??? Because he negotiates crap contracts?!? He should get paid what he fights for. If he thinks a RJ Captain is worth 50,000 a year, then that is what he should earn. PM me idiot, and I could school you on ALPO and the Airline industry. Pilots were around along time before ALPO!!!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

First of all, get your facts straight. 21 days off a year!!! Are you that stupid?? Second, I volunteered and it was a joke. Guys are in the union so they do not have to actually work the contract they fight for. In 18 years what has DW actually done. I have some old time USAIR pilots that would like to talk to him. I have some United and Northwest friends also that think ALPO is sh!t. He has the responsibility of looking out for 66,000 pilot jobs.

Prater will average the about same number of days off.... If your old time friends want to talk I am sure they can call themselves. In fact many pilots "call" their MEC and National Officers to complain that thier expectations are not being met, despite unprecedented circumstances, beyond ALPA control. So instead of dealing with the issues, these ALPA reps have to "school" the misinformed: a waste of time and resources.

Imagine having to go to the cabin for each flight delay and explain to angry cynical passengers instead of working the issue.

That number use to be 100,000!!! He has done a wonderful job!!

Unions don't hire or terminate employment. What are you trying to say...

ALPO is made of volunteers!?! Are you sure??? They get something for their work, noone in this business does it for free. Why should he get more than a line pilot??? Because he negotiates crap contracts?!? He should get paid what he fights for. If he thinks a RJ Captain is worth 50,000 a year, then that is what he should earn. PM me idiot, and I could school you on ALPO and the Airline industry. Pilots were around along time before ALPO!!!!

I know when I volunteered, I'd fly my line FRI-MON. The MEC meeting would be on TUES-THURS. No day off. In addition, on that TUES-THURS I put in 10 hour days. 10h/day times my hourly rate was a few hundred clams. And I flew an RJ. If that was a B777 or B747 it would be thousands of dollars worth of volunteer time.

I did control my cell phone calls. I wouldn't answer during meal times or dedicated family time. But I did return all calls within 24hours as a matter of personal policy. Members do demand communication, especially when they don't realize you are flying a full flight schedule, living a life similiar to thiers as oppsossed sitting in plush union chairs in high dollar offices eating cake off of silver platters.

If the President thinks a RJ CA should make 50K, and he also thinks a B777 CA should make 300K and he can hold B777 CA then why should he make 50k?

Here is a major problem: As long as we have members that are so pissed off at the very people that are trying to protect them we will seriously deminish our effectiveness.

If you have been paying attention to ALPA affairs windows of opportunity are presenting themselves. But if ALPA reps have to spend time justifying what they are doing instead of doing it when are going to miss that window.

When ALPA reps call out to the members to take action and the members decline then we will not be taken seriously by gov't, companies and industry.

Get informed, get involved. Being an angry spectator all while watching your career be played out is not effective. Be a player....

 

[CopilotDoug]

"...In fact many pilots "call" their MEC and National Officers to complain that thier expectations are not being met, despite unprecedented circumstances, beyond ALPA control..."
I'd say the three biggest concerns are Pay, Job Security, and Retirement. If ALPA can't control those, why should anyone pay dues?

"...Unions don't hire or terminate employment..."
And in many cases, ALPA can't protect your employment either.

"...If you have been paying attention to ALPA affairs windows of opportunity are presenting themselves..."
Duane has been saying this since 2001. "We've got management by the balls, the tables are about to turn! Just you wait and see! Never mind the Trainwreck that has happened at DAL/UAL/NWA and TWA."

Alot of Union members are pissed because they DID have expecatations of ALPA. DAL and UAL and NWA have highlighted the fact that ALPA really has alot less power than they'd like their membership to believe. And now people are asking "If my retirement and career is at risk and ALPA can do absolutely nothing about it, why the hell am I paying Union dues?!?" ALPA is just one more hand in the cookie jar.

Just like corporate America, Duane will be protected and well taken care of since he's at the top. I'm sure the founding fathers of ALPA would look on the current "administration" with disgust and contempt.

 

[BoilerUP]

Doug, its painfully obvious you either don't know anything about ALPA or are unwilling to learn how it works. Have you ever read "Flying the Line" or "Hard Landing"?

ALPA is not a savior. ALPA National cannot prevent a pilot group from controlling its destiny by voting in concessions outside of refusing to sign, and if they did that, there would probably be a decertification drive started immedately.

ALPA members that constantly bitch and complain about ALPA constantly fail to realize that 1. most of their expectations of ALPA's 'power' are completely unrealisitc, and 2. they are ALPA! If the masses creating the cacophony of whining on this board would put half that effort into activism or volunteering, there might be real change...but ultimately its easier to blame an organization instead of the person staring back in the mirror.

ALPA has not cost pilots their pensions and their contracts; the worst terrorist attack in US history combined with inept management giving away seats in a weak revenue environment has caused that. If you cannot wrap your mind around that fact then I'd love to hear your theory.

In order to reclaim even some of those huge givebacks, ALPA members will have to show huge courage and be willing to fight a hard fight. It is my sincere hope each and every ALPA member will rally together and unify in each and every pilot group and we as a collective can turn the corner. My airline is years away from negotiations, but until then I'll say HELL NO to any concessions talk and show my support for every single group working to improve conditions for themselves and us all.

Are you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

"...In fact many pilots "call" their MEC and National Officers to complain that thier expectations are not being met, despite unprecedented circumstances, beyond ALPA control..."
I'd say the three biggest concerns are Pay, Job Security, and Retirement. If ALPA can't control those, why should anyone pay dues?

Depends on what you call control. Air Line Pilots do not run airlines. Did you call ALPA when you wanted a job? No, you called your employer.

"...Unions don't hire or terminate employment..."
And in many cases, ALPA can't protect your employment either.

Depends on how stupid the pilot is and how determined your employer is.

"...If you have been paying attention to ALPA affairs windows of opportunity are presenting themselves..."
Duane has been saying this since 2001. "We've got management by the balls, the tables are about to turn! Just you wait and see! Never mind the Trainwreck that has happened at DAL/UAL/NWA and TWA."

can you provide a reference?

Alot of Union members are pissed because they DID have expecatations of ALPA. DAL and UAL and NWA have highlighted the fact that ALPA really has alot less power than they'd like their membership to believe. And now people are asking "If my retirement and career is at risk and ALPA can do absolutely nothing about it, why the hell am I paying Union dues?!?" ALPA is just one more hand in the cookie jar.

Wrong again. Recall that the pilots of DAL, UAL and NWA told "ALPA" through democratic votes of free will that they were willing to take the concessionary contracts. Thus in the future they would get gains. IOW live to fight another day. Sorry, its not ALPA but your fellow pilots. Start your mantra in the crew room not at ALPA National or your MEC.

Just like corporate America, Duane will be protected and well taken care of since he's at the top. I'm sure the founding fathers of ALPA would look on the current "administration" with disgust and contempt.

That is pretty presumptuous that you think you can speak for the Key Men of ALPA. It weakens your creditiability, significantly. I am willing to bet you don't even know who the founding fathers were. And I am willing to bet that the current ALPA National leadership is in line with founding father ideals. And the membership hasn't changed all that much.....

 

[CopilotDoug]

Why does ALPA need the dues again? I thought it was all volunteers?
What kind of assurances do ALPA members have that their Pay, Job Security, and Retirement are Secure? That's what I, John Q. Pilot, am concerned about.

The question still stands..."If my retirement and career is at risk regradless, and ALPA can do absolutely nothing about it, why should ALPA get one dime?!?"

My company signs my paychecks, not ALPA. I work for the company, not ALPA. I can appreciate your interest in aviation history, Rez. But as I said before, when Behncke and the 24 Key Men (whose names where held in secrecy to protect their jobs) formed ALPA in 1931 TIMES WERE DIFFERENT! Get it through your head that we're not flying BiPlanes on Mail Routes in the 30's anymore!!!