Not an excuse, but......

[General Lee]

I can see a lot of people are upset about the Delta TA. I admit it, I was shocked when I first saw the intial numbers, and there are still some negatives out there for me.

But, I am getting tired of the Delta bashing on this website. First of all, we have had ZERO help in trying to bring up overall wages and benefits from the other legacies out there. ZERO. The only ones to help us were the Southwest pilots, and the Fedex/UPS guys. That's it.

The last contract at a legacy was our joint contract with NWA in 2008. It was done during high oil (it was hitting $130 a barrel at the time), and the Delta/NWA pilots got a 17% wage increase over 4 years (5,4,4,4), that ended last January. It wasn't a great contract, but it did get us higher than the BK wages both DL and NWA were handed by BK judges.

What has happened since then? The UAL and CAL guys CAN'T GET IT TOGETHER. They can't. They can't come together and agree on anything. There doesn't look like any TA or SLI or anything will be done over there, and it would have really helped us out here if they had some sort of an agreement 6 months ago.

What about USAir or AA? AA took 5 years and got NOTHING, and then went into BK. USAir starting infighting, the Easties formed USAPA and the NIC award was shelved, and they too haven't done squat to move up any of their wages. ZERO.

Who has kept the bargain? Southwest. Even though some of us rag on them from time to time (they are West Texas Corndogs, right?), they actually kept the wages from falling, brought them up to a high level, and didn't falter. Even though they took over the "cockiness King" award from the old Deltoids, they did set and keep the bar high. If this TA does go through for Dalpa, the DL 737 pilots, PER HOUR, will be paid more than the SWA pilots (even adjusted for their trip time) if you add the DC fund compared to their 401K match. That's good, and the SWA guys can use that next time for themselves to bargain with.

The FedEx and UPS guys are in a different league, primarily because their companies can charge whatever they want, and will still be profitable. But, those pilots too are well paid and did a great job for the profession.

It's not about getting a 40% wage increase all at once. I don't think that happens anymore. It's about grabbing what you can and adding to it. 7 year contracts are bad. Short ones need to have good compensation for the length of time, plus positives in other areas. I think it needs to be reasonable, and again when I saw this TA, I was dissappointed with the pay raises. But, I will look over this TA and listen at the roadshows and ask questions. The emotion around this is huge, and that needs to subside a bit and then look at this thing rationally.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Rough67]

I get it... You are willing to give up scope for a few bucks.. Thank you please drive through..

 

[1st Rate]

GL-- thanks for putting that into perspective. A calm voice in the midst of chaos goes along way. Thanks.

 

[xkuzme1]

You got ZERO help from anyone except FedEx and Southwest. How many Legacy carriers existed when Delta went through their pay cuts?, and now? Delta represents 2 groups of pilots. Those that did not hold the line and totally caved on scope, and those that ALSO did not hold the line caved on scope. I see a pattern here!

The two airlines that didn't help much stood their ground on scope (Cal and AA)!

Your pay for a 737 is higher, but SW has 100% scope. That alone leaves your statement so far in the dust that you could never catch up.

 

[BID]

Our management wants 76 seat RJs. Our CEO likes your TA. But unlike Delta they are not for sale. You realize how much pressure this puts on us? Delta should of never allowed 76 seats, just like United should of never allowed 70 seat regional jets. Hell you guys actually allowed 90 seat jets configured to 76.

You wonder why people are bashing Delta and why DALPA might be in trouble?

 

[Floatplane]

Scope

 

[KarmaPolice]

Dude, we are going to give the company bigger RJs with this TA when the company is making billions. This is going to force UCAL to do the same to compete with us. Yes, our wages are top for legacies, but we are dismal on scope. We deserve the abuse.

 

[list2002]

As a CAL guy I can say I heard "I hope the Delta TA helps us out." Quite a few times. Before that was, "I hope American gets something nice... "
I agree with GL on this one, we at U-CAL have done NOTHING for too long, HOPING some other airline group would scare OUR mgmnt enough to throw us a bone.
So our turn to contribute is being skipped over, and a building block for the profession as a whole as well WTG us.

 

[General Lee]

You got ZERO help from anyone except FedEx and Southwest. How many Legacy carriers existed when Delta went through their pay cuts?, and now? Delta represents 2 groups of pilots. Those that did not hold the line and totally caved on scope, and those that ALSO did not hold the line caved on scope. I see a pattern here!

The two airlines that didn't help much stood their ground on scope (Cal and AA)!

Your pay for a 737 is higher, but SW has 100% scope. That alone leaves your statement so far in the dust that you could never catch up.

Lots of sideways agruments here. How many legacy carries existed when Delta went through pay cuts? 7? How many are around today? 4 combined, and two are waiting to. UAL and CAL haven't helped anyone with their infighting. Same with USAir. Throw in AA trying hard for 5 years and got NOTHING. None of that has helped with pattern bargaining. You need help to move up. Southwest helped us out, but Southwest is only a 737 operator, and doesn't have the same type of operation. Before buying Airtran, they avoided a lot of the small cities except in Texas. Should we fly DC9s to Dothan, AL? How about Brainard, MN? You just can't compare them. Keep trying to compare the two, and your statement is so far in the dust yourself. Hub and Spoke (to small cities too), vs point to point. SWA's only scope problem now is Volaris going to Mexico. The RJs didn't even work for Airtran out of MKE in reality, but they again have a different model. You can't deny that. At least they kept their rates high enough for us to try to catch them, and adding the DC portion, it looks like we have. How have UAL/CAL/US/AA done so far?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Homer Jay]

I can see a lot of people are upset about the Delta TA. I admit it, I was shocked when I first saw the intial numbers, and there are still some negatives out there for me.

But, I am getting tired of the Delta bashing on this website. First of all, we have had ZERO help in trying to bring up overall wages and benefits from the other legacies out there. ZERO. The only ones to help us were the Southwest pilots, and the Fedex/UPS guys. That's it.

The last contract at a legacy was our joint contract with NWA in 2008. It was done during high oil (it was hitting $130 a barrel at the time), and the Delta/NWA pilots got a 17% wage increase over 4 years (5,4,4,4), that ended last January. It wasn't a great contract, but it did get us higher than the BK wages both DL and NWA were handed by BK judges.

What has happened since then? The UAL and CAL guys CAN'T GET IT TOGETHER. They can't. They can't come together and agree on anything. There doesn't look like any TA or SLI or anything will be done over there, and it would have really helped us out here if they had some sort of an agreement 6 months ago.

What about USAir or AA? AA took 5 years and got NOTHING, and then went into BK. USAir starting infighting, the Easties formed USAPA and the NIC award was shelved, and they too haven't done squat to move up any of their wages. ZERO.

Who has kept the bargain? Southwest. Even though some of us rag on them from time to time (they are West Texas Corndogs, right?), they actually kept the wages from falling, brought them up to a high level, and didn't falter. Even though they took over the "cockiness King" award from the old Deltoids, they did set and keep the bar high. If this TA does go through for Dalpa, the DL 737 pilots, PER HOUR, will be paid more than the SWA pilots (even adjusted for their trip time) if you add the DC fund compared to their 401K match. That's good, and the SWA guys can use that next time for themselves to bargain with.

The FedEx and UPS guys are in a different league, primarily because their companies can charge whatever they want, and will still be profitable. But, those pilots too are well paid and did a great job for the profession.

It's not about getting a 40% wage increase all at once. I don't think that happens anymore. It's about grabbing what you can and adding to it. 7 year contracts are bad. Short ones need to have good compensation for the length of time, plus positives in other areas. I think it needs to be reasonable, and again when I saw this TA, I was dissappointed with the pay raises. But, I will look over this TA and listen at the roadshows and ask questions. The emotion around this is huge, and that needs to subside a bit and then look at this thing rationally.



Bye Bye---General Lee

I have to call BS on this. How do you recommend we get a contract and an SLI done when we have Frank Lorenzo Jr. running the show? I agree there have been some internal issues within the two MEC's, but the common focus has always been on getting a JCBA. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best. I'm happy that you have TA well before the amendable date and would love to have one to vote on myself, but I want the RIGHT contract with TIGHTENED scope. Our CEO likes your TA and that scares the hell out of me, as it should you. I'm cautiously optimistic you guys will do the right thing.

 

[KarmaPolice]

As a CAL guy I can say I heard "I hope the Delta TA helps us out." Quite a few times. Before that was, "I hope American gets something nice... "
I agree with GL on this one, we at U-CAL have done NOTHING for too long, HOPING some other airline group would scare OUR mgmnt enough to throw us a bone.
So our turn to contribute is being skipped over, and a building block for the profession as a whole as well WTG us.

The supposed idea of having organized labor is not so much that we hook each other up, but that at least we don't stab each other in the back. Delta has got no help from CAL, but at least you guys were holding the line on RJs.

You just got flanked, as the Delta line is getting overrun!

 

[dalad]

Gen, this TA is an insult. The scope provisions do reduce the regional flying, but the pay and retirement do nothing for me. The pay raise is being partially provided by a reduction in profit sharing! If we vote this down, the TA is a basis for any changes as the RLA won't allow the company to come back with a lower offer.

 

[General Lee]

Dude, we are going to give the company bigger RJs with this TA when the company is making billions. This is going to force UCAL to do the same to compete with us. Yes, our wages are top for legacies, but we are dismal on scope. We deserve the abuse.

First of all, not really BIGGER RJs, you mean more of the same larger RJs. I hear you. In reality, the 76 seat RJ was let out of the bag in BK. We can't deny that, and that sucks. We can't really recapture that flying, it would mean taking pay cuts probably to pay for all of them, and many are owned by other companies now. Future 76 seaters were a possibility, but again, how would that work? Would the pilots be Delta pilots, and the flight attendants, rampers, mechanics, sim people, etc be Pinnacle or Mesaba people? Could Delta people do that? It would be a lot more expensive than normal feed. I would rather use that money to get larger planes, and tie them in with "guaranteed" limits on RJs, INTL scope, AK scope, and have TOTAL RJ numbers go way down. No, I don't really want to see more 76 seaters taxiing next to us, but most of the 50 seaters that weren't making money will be gone, and there will be fewer of them TOTAL around us. That should make us more money right there, less delays because of FEWER TOTAL RJs. Add in 717s, MD90s, maybe more A320s, etc, and the domestic arena will become more based on OUR flying, and less on DCI. That will be the result for us. Am I dissappointed in the pay raises? Yes. But, you can't just get 30% at once, even with large profits. It would be nice, but I don't think that would happen. It's a 3 year contract---and it will pay more than the last 4 year we are finishing now, with lots of improvements thrown in there. I want to see the TA in summary form and confirm a lot of this.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[fr8doggie]

Delta should of never allowed 76 seats, just like United should of never allowed 70 seat regional jets.

It's HAVE not OF. Where did you go to school? Riddle?


Regards,
Fr8doggie
ERAU '81

 

[General Lee]

Gen, this TA is an insult. The scope provisions do reduce the regional flying, but the pay and retirement do nothing for me. The pay raise is being partially provided by a reduction in profit sharing! If we vote this down, the TA is a basis for any changes as the RLA won't allow the company to come back with a lower offer.

First of all, it will take a few days for emotions to die down. I wasn't very happy when I first saw the offer either. Yes, the pay raise wasn't what I was expecting. The Scope section, the more I look into it (and I still want to see some things pointed out), looks reasonable, especially the INTL and AK scope sections. We have to worry about more than just RJs, you know.

When you look at the profit sharing, you need to see that with the increased pay rates, and the profit sharing is based off of your W2, that somewhat makes up for some of the loss. You will be making 13% more as of Jan 1st. Then, analysts are saying we could make $2-3 billion per year in profits coming up here. If we make 1 penny over $2.5 billion, then that profit sharing provision (giving away 1/3 from 15% to 10%) goes away, and the pilots automatically get 20%. So, I want the company to make at least 1 penny over $2.5 billion, not just $2.2 billion in one year. If the analysts are right, we all win, and get MORE profit sharing.

This TA is for 3 years, which is a fairly quick contract. We would get a 19.5% raise (adjusted after adding 4% to the current, then 8.5 to the next, and so on) in 3 years, compared to 17% in the last 4 years. That's pretty good. And, if the company is as wildly profitable as analysts predict, when the 3 years come around, we could jump on those profits and go even higher. This TA brings us up above SWA when adding the DC fund, and gets us to within $3 of the FEDEX 777 guys. I would say that is pretty darn good. When climbing the ladder, I don't know if it is possible to jump up 5 steps at once.


Bye Bye---General Lee