Not an excuse, but......

[KarmaPolice]

As a CAL guy I can say I heard "I hope the Delta TA helps us out." Quite a few times. Before that was, "I hope American gets something nice... "
I agree with GL on this one, we at U-CAL have done NOTHING for too long, HOPING some other airline group would scare OUR mgmnt enough to throw us a bone.
So our turn to contribute is being skipped over, and a building block for the profession as a whole as well WTG us.

The supposed idea of having organized labor is not so much that we hook each other up, but that at least we don't stab each other in the back. Delta has got no help from CAL, but at least you guys were holding the line on RJs.

You just got flanked, as the Delta line is getting overrun!

 

[dalad]

Gen, this TA is an insult. The scope provisions do reduce the regional flying, but the pay and retirement do nothing for me. The pay raise is being partially provided by a reduction in profit sharing! If we vote this down, the TA is a basis for any changes as the RLA won't allow the company to come back with a lower offer.

 

[General Lee]

Dude, we are going to give the company bigger RJs with this TA when the company is making billions. This is going to force UCAL to do the same to compete with us. Yes, our wages are top for legacies, but we are dismal on scope. We deserve the abuse.

First of all, not really BIGGER RJs, you mean more of the same larger RJs. I hear you. In reality, the 76 seat RJ was let out of the bag in BK. We can't deny that, and that sucks. We can't really recapture that flying, it would mean taking pay cuts probably to pay for all of them, and many are owned by other companies now. Future 76 seaters were a possibility, but again, how would that work? Would the pilots be Delta pilots, and the flight attendants, rampers, mechanics, sim people, etc be Pinnacle or Mesaba people? Could Delta people do that? It would be a lot more expensive than normal feed. I would rather use that money to get larger planes, and tie them in with "guaranteed" limits on RJs, INTL scope, AK scope, and have TOTAL RJ numbers go way down. No, I don't really want to see more 76 seaters taxiing next to us, but most of the 50 seaters that weren't making money will be gone, and there will be fewer of them TOTAL around us. That should make us more money right there, less delays because of FEWER TOTAL RJs. Add in 717s, MD90s, maybe more A320s, etc, and the domestic arena will become more based on OUR flying, and less on DCI. That will be the result for us. Am I dissappointed in the pay raises? Yes. But, you can't just get 30% at once, even with large profits. It would be nice, but I don't think that would happen. It's a 3 year contract---and it will pay more than the last 4 year we are finishing now, with lots of improvements thrown in there. I want to see the TA in summary form and confirm a lot of this.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[fr8doggie]

Delta should of never allowed 76 seats, just like United should of never allowed 70 seat regional jets.

It's HAVE not OF. Where did you go to school? Riddle?


Regards,
Fr8doggie
ERAU '81

 

[General Lee]

Gen, this TA is an insult. The scope provisions do reduce the regional flying, but the pay and retirement do nothing for me. The pay raise is being partially provided by a reduction in profit sharing! If we vote this down, the TA is a basis for any changes as the RLA won't allow the company to come back with a lower offer.

First of all, it will take a few days for emotions to die down. I wasn't very happy when I first saw the offer either. Yes, the pay raise wasn't what I was expecting. The Scope section, the more I look into it (and I still want to see some things pointed out), looks reasonable, especially the INTL and AK scope sections. We have to worry about more than just RJs, you know.

When you look at the profit sharing, you need to see that with the increased pay rates, and the profit sharing is based off of your W2, that somewhat makes up for some of the loss. You will be making 13% more as of Jan 1st. Then, analysts are saying we could make $2-3 billion per year in profits coming up here. If we make 1 penny over $2.5 billion, then that profit sharing provision (giving away 1/3 from 15% to 10%) goes away, and the pilots automatically get 20%. So, I want the company to make at least 1 penny over $2.5 billion, not just $2.2 billion in one year. If the analysts are right, we all win, and get MORE profit sharing.

This TA is for 3 years, which is a fairly quick contract. We would get a 19.5% raise (adjusted after adding 4% to the current, then 8.5 to the next, and so on) in 3 years, compared to 17% in the last 4 years. That's pretty good. And, if the company is as wildly profitable as analysts predict, when the 3 years come around, we could jump on those profits and go even higher. This TA brings us up above SWA when adding the DC fund, and gets us to within $3 of the FEDEX 777 guys. I would say that is pretty darn good. When climbing the ladder, I don't know if it is possible to jump up 5 steps at once.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Jiminmem]

General, there is truth in your argument. Why agree to a new TA early though? Especially when there were very few improvements? Why not wait a little longer, I'd rather stay t our current contract and fight for more meaningful improvements then bitch and moan for 3 years and say, "we'll get them next time."

 

[Turtle21]

Leeway, only two historicals disadvantaged you on the playing field.
1) Comair.
2) ALPA's inconsistent, nofault, non-policy on SLI.

You're right, it's not an excuse. ALPA is doing everything they can, considering the several changes of course they chose.

 

[General Lee]

I have to call BS on this. How do you recommend we get a contract and an SLI done when we have Frank Lorenzo Jr. running the show? I agree there have been some internal issues within the two MEC's, but the common focus has always been on getting a JCBA. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best. I'm happy that you have TA well before the amendable date and would love to have one to vote on myself, but I want the RIGHT contract with TIGHTENED scope. Our CEO likes your TA and that scares the hell out of me, as it should you. I'm cautiously optimistic you guys will do the right thing.

The 76 seat RJ was let out of the bag after the BK, and it would be tough to get back. UAL has about the same amount of 70 (ok, 67 seaters) seaters as Delta does, and same with the 50 seaters. But, DL now wants to get rid of almost all of the 50 seaters (already dumped most of the props except SKW E120s in SLC), and plans to add a smaller number of 76 seaters to the already large total of 153, but with a condition of adding and KEEPING larger mainline planes. Take them away, then take away 76 seaters. But, at the same time, DUMP MONEY LOSING 50 seat jets. You guys at UAL have now added COEX (now ASA) E145s to your mix (and actually adding 37 seat E135s to take over for some Dash-8-400s leaving---those E135s must be huge money losers to cover the costs), added ASA 50 seaters that DL dumped from ATL to your ORD and IAD bases, and still have Mesa, SKW, GoJets, Republic, TSA, etc as 50 seaters. Your problems are a lot worse, and will take a lot more time to clean up. DL just gave Dalpa a chance to clean up a huge amount of RJs, GONE. Then they put a hard limit on RJs that might make money where the 50s could not (lower CASM), on routes that 717s won't take. I would say that makes good business sense, but also puts actual limits on planes, and maintains mainline growth tied to the RJs.

So, you need to clean your own union stuff up, get together, go for a raise, negotiate your scope the best way you can and set limits (there don't seem to be any now--I see UAL E175s flying to EWR and IAH as we speak), and move on. The faster you do, the better we all will become. Then USAir and AA have to get their acts together too.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Leeway, only two historicals disadvantaged you on the playing field.
1) Comair.
2) ALPA's inconsistent, nofault, non-policy on SLI.

You're right, it's not an excuse. ALPA is doing everything they can, considering the several changes of course they chose.

Comair? Now down to 44 total aircraft and shrinking everyday? And we know how you and the Easties feel about SLI. You agreed to binding arbitration, and the arbitrator (Nicelau) looked at what each of you brought to the table, and ruled. That is the most fair way, an outsider looking over the whole deal and deciding.

As far as ALPA goes, they are dealing with it one step at a time, not trying to leap over 5 steps to get to the ultimate place. You just can't do that anymore. When huge companies merge, it becomes harder to take action because National interests get in the way. It becomes harder and harder to get self help, which sucks, but that is the way it is. Maybe the best way to deal with that is to take smaller steps, MORE OFTEN. 3 year contract and getting things done before ammendable dates can help with that. I think I personally deserve a 300% wage increase, but nobody will listen to me.....except my wife. She is so cute.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General, there is truth in your argument. Why agree to a new TA early though? Especially when there were very few improvements? Why not wait a little longer, I'd rather stay t our current contract and fight for more meaningful improvements then bitch and moan for 3 years and say, "we'll get them next time."

I have gone through a lot of what you are thinking too. What can it be? Why so early? What is up their sleeve? Maybe there are "strategic" reasons, maybe leases had to be signed, maybe loan applications to be verified, I don't know. Maybe AA in BK right now and USAir getting ready to give presentations to the creditor committee reasons? Plenty of rumors, one of which was the 717 transfer. Guess what? That one came true. There are a few more out there, rumors of course. If any of them do become true, huge hiring, lots of upgrades, and world domination. If none of the other ones do, then we just got some 717s, which will still involve hiring and upgrades, but there is still a lot of consolidation out there to go. Interesting times. I agree that this was done fast for some reason, but that reason may be a really good one. (and this TA did tighten up scope in the JV and code share area, which is a good thing) I know people will say "I've heard that one before." Look around what is happening right now in the industry. Crazy turmoil.


Bye Bye---General Lee