Northwest trying to outsource pilots!

[jetfo]

Why is it Georges fault??

It is the state of the industry, it has arrived at this point through many administrations, to blame George is a little short sighted. The industry didn't arrive at this point overnight.

Ditto!!!

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

There is always some idiot out in left field just waiting for the opportunity to blame Bush. Dont you idiots realize how stupid you sound. The industry, the hurricanes, the fires, terrorism, etc. Its getting really old.

Left field? You mean the 48% of Americans that voted against George Bush II in 2004? Or maybe the 51% that voted against him back in 2000? Perhaps the 70% of Americans that now think he's doing a lousy job? Left field is getting crowded.

 

[jetfo]

Hair:

I'm glad you understand the "complex problem" we have.

Republican administrations have always been less friendly to organized labor. I guess they're not happy that unions give almost all their political contributions to Democrats.

What has ALPA done for us lately, or ever!!!

Personally, I have to laugh at pilots that like to think of themselves as something other than working class union labor, and vote Republican. Then they can't figure out why the administration and congress isn't concerned about issues like pension reform.

Yeah, your'e right, NOT!

This job requires at least a four year degree, years of professional experience and licensure. That doesn't sound blue colllar to me.

However, ALPA has allowed us to be treated like blue collar labor.

By the way, what have the Dem's done for you lately?!?!?

Why don't you call Hillary and see if she cares.

 

[whymeworry?]

Have to chime in here.

I voted for GB and I regret it. He is a poor leader, though Kerry would have probably been much worse. When the leader of our country can lead us into war but cannot protect our working class in the form of a substantive energy bill, why would one not blame him?

In August of this year Congress finally passed an energy bill that was, for all intents and purposes, a huge waste of time since the bill had no teeth in it. So here we are with 20% higher energy prices since August and it's no wonder our industry continues to bleed.

Just as Duane needs to lead, so does GW.

I do agree about y'alls sentiments about the democratic party though. They can't get their sh!t together either so GB was the only choice.

I don't blame GB nor airline managements for the problems in our business. I blame energy for the problems. And it's up to our leader to lead congress into battle against all involved. That means demanding better standards in fuel economy, more refinery production, and drawing media attention to the greed of OPEC nations. So far our leaders have failed to deliver, which I suppose is easy for them to do since they live in such an isulated world (insulated from OUR probelms).

I am ecstatic to see GM/ FORD/ DODGE getting spanked by the consumer right now for ignoring our plight. Toyota and Honda got the message, that consumers want choices in how they spend their energy dollar, and are way ahead in the fuel efficient vehicle race. Besides, buying Toyota is patriotic. They build here in the US, unlike the big three.

 

[jetfo]

There is always some idiot out in left field just waiting for the opportunity to blame Bush. Dont you idiots realize how stupid you sound. The industry, the hurricanes, the fires, terrorism, etc. Its getting really old.

Thank You!

 

[pilotyip]

College no way

jetfo get serious this job does not require a college degree only 5 of the 177 airlines hiring make the degree a show stopper.Next, whatme could the union non-union Ford, GM etc, vs. Toyota have anything to do with their present plight?

 

[800Dog]

Yeah, your'e right, NOT!

This job requires at least a four year degree, years of professional experience and licensure. That doesn't sound blue colllar to me.

However, ALPA has allowed us to be treated like blue collar labor.

By the way, what have the Dem's done for you lately?!?!?

Why don't you call Hillary and see if she cares.

I have to disagree. There are many pilots out there without a college degree. There are also the 300 hr. wonders who go through an airline academy and find themselves flying an rj shortly thereafter. We are our own worst enemy and I see no end in sight. That is why I am working on leaving this industry.

 

[pilotyip]

bye bye 800, best of luck, I left and came back.

 

[800Dog]

bye bye 800, best of luck, I left and came back.

pilotyip,
Just curious, what is your educational background. I feel very confident about my future outside of this industry. I am halfway finished with my MBA from GA Tech and at 34 years of age, time is on my side. Best of luck to you as well.

 

[jetfo]

jetfo get serious this job does not require a college degree only 5 of the 177 airlines hiring make the degree a show stopper.

At least at the majors it's required and frequently highly preferred at regionals.

You may get to the regionals without one, but not to the majors. Even a trucking company like UPS demands one today. And, as competive as it is out there they can.

 

[GogglesPisano]

In 20 years the airline industry will be like the shipping industry. Foreign-registered airplanes and foreign pilots flying within within the US, global airlines with no nationality.10 years if we keep Republicans in office.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Labor was in a downward spiral during CLinton's 8 years, chief. Don't kid yourself. Politicians get their money from corporations and wealthy shareholders.



Personally, I have to laugh at message-board pilots that think that things would have been better under John Kerry! If that was the best the Democratic party could offer, no wonder they lost.

Maybe, instead of blaming Bush, you should blame the DNC for giving America such a lousy slate of contenders . . . . and then they name Dean to head the party. You really want those buffoons running the country?

Not me.

Just because you think it doesn't make it true. Labor unions made up 11 of the top 20 political action committee contributors to federal candidates in the 2000 election. (latest I could find) http://www.laborresearch.org/story.php?id=220. But that's really beside the point.

The late 90's through 2000 were the best years in aviation that most of us have seen. Pilot labor made significant advances in compensation and work rules.

I just think you're out of touch if you think the GOP has interest in your well-being. We're nowhere near the tax bracket that interests George II. Take a look at your tax cuts. Sure you save $200 bucks a year but your health insurance goes up more than that and now your pension is gone. Meanwhile your CEO saves a million in taxes on his golden parachute. Nice. It's not that I don't wish I was one of the poor souls that has to worry about the Estate Tax exemption (death tax) being only 3.5 million in 2009, but I guess I just know my place in the great scheme of things.

A snob from Boston or a moron from Texas, choose your evil.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Yeah, your'e right, NOT!

This job requires at least a four year degree, years of professional experience and licensure. That doesn't sound blue colllar to me.

However, ALPA has allowed us to be treated like blue collar labor.

By the way, what have the Dem's done for you lately?!?!?

Why don't you call Hillary and see if she cares.

At least Hillary would lie and tell me she cared.

Why don't you take a look at any flying magazine. I could go get a loan, start from zero time, and be flying as a part 121 FO in less than a year.

ALPA told you to vote democrat, but did you do it? Of course not.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

In 20 years the airline industry will be like the shipping industry. Foreign-registered airplanes and foreign pilots flying within within the US, global airlines with no nationality.10 years if we keep Republicans in office.

I think you're right about this. Not happy about it, but realistic.

 

[yaks]

Ty is the guy they were singing about on the bud light commercial.

 

[SWAPoolie]

NWA probably would have declared bankruptcy that much quicker, thus removing any leverage (if there ever was any) from the remaining unions. Management would have accomplished their goals that much quicker.

If the unions stuck together the company would have had no choice but to deal. You can't replace workers in all areas at once. The pilots and FAs allowed the company to slowly phase in the new mechanics thereby nailing their own coffin. Serves them right because if they went on strike they would have expected the mechanics to back them up.

If they all lose their jobs it's their own fault and Duane E. Worthless'.

 

[cfm56-7b]

All the unions at NWA should have stuck together. Now NWA is going to pick each work group apart one by one. It's sad that alpa iam and pfaa all gave amfa the cold shoulder now alpa is giving and giving and nwa still wants to more more more.

 

[pilotyip]

What makes anyone think that unions sticking together could have done anything to keep NWA out of BK? You can not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. NWA was basically DOA.

 

[pilotyip]

jetfo, the reason most people getting hired have 4-yr degrees is because most people applying have 4-yr degrees. Great airlines like SWA, JB, AirTran, etc, do not let the lack of a degree get in the way of hiring the right pilot. We have had 7 pilots interview at JB in the last 5 years, 4 had degrees, 3 did not have degrees, and JB hired 3, 2 w/o degrees and 1 with a degree. You can make in this business without a degree. TJ PIC from a 121 Air Carrier is the resume fluff that means more than a 4-yr-college degree, of course this comes from my personal experience in this business. Gad how I love this

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty webb your a fool.

Hair on fire is correct we are blue collar working men that is how the IRS classifies our job.

Really, Chief, why don't you show us the IRS publication? Because last time I checked, the IRS wasn't tasked with the responsibility of deciding whether jobs were "blue or white collar". Maybe in your drunken stupor you thought that is what you heard somewhere . . . but in any event, it's not a valid argument for anything.

We are highly trained technicians/managers, operating (in my case) a $30 million dollar plant with a potential liability of over a billion dollars at any given time.

So what's your point? Ah . . . . that's what I thought.

Ty Webb is one of those that votes republican and thinks he is above everyone else and then when his union has no power he just cries and cries and says well it is a very complex problem

.

You don't know me, my thought process, or anything about me, but feel free to blather away. Let us know when you're done, and we'll call your Village and let them know they can come pick up their Idiot.

Welcome to flightinfo.com. Don't let the electrons bombard your @ss on your way out.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"In 20 years the airline industry will be like the shipping industry. Foreign-registered airplanes and foreign pilots flying within within the US, global airlines with no nationality.10 years if we keep Republicans in office."


Exactly......!!


It boggles the mind sometimes to see that people in this industry are either totally blind to this up-and-coming reality or are in extreme denial about it. As a result, they will do nothing until it is too late.

You must get your representatives to vote no on any and every form of cabotage that comes up.

 

[SWAPoolie]

What makes anyone think that unions sticking together could have done anything to keep NWA out of BK? You can not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. NWA was basically DOA.

They were going into CH11 no matter what. However, the pilots are going to lose their jobs now because they let the company outsource mechanics. It set precedence that it can and will be done. If the unions stuck together the company would have had no choice but to cut a deal. Now they know they can run any union out of town.

 

[320AV8R]

What makes anyone think that unions sticking together could have done anything to keep NWA out of BK? You can not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. NWA was basically DOA.

If there was any indication of union solidarity before the AMFA strike, the company woud have filed CH 11 & handed everyone their a$$es at once. Now, with AMFA out of the way, ALPA, PFAA & IAM all have the same 1113c deadline.....can you say "collective bargaining ?"

NWA is taking outsourcing to a new level......and they won't be happy until there are NO employees left.

Northwest begins with NO.

320AV8R

 

[sleeves]

Exactly what does this post have to do with treason?

It has nothing to do with treason and I did not mean to imply anyone would die either.

To connect my previous post to the NWA situation, please consider how the mechanics were left to hang by themselves and now the company is coming after all of them seperately.

 

[MINIME]

They were going into CH11 no matter what. However, the pilots are going to lose their jobs now because they let the company outsource mechanics. It set precedence that it can and will be done. If the unions stuck together the company would have had no choice but to cut a deal. Now they know they can run any union out of town.

My dog in this fight is very small. But this man I believe, has it right. Precedence, precedence, precedence....that's the new name of the game. NWA expected it, they saw it and went for the kill. It's easier to shoot one bird at a time than all at once. I'm sorry for the NWA family but it might be a little late to stop that downhill train. This is definitely a lesson for me and should be for all of us if we expect to have a profitable career in aviation.

 

[airmasn]

The outsourcing of labor started happening a long time ago with the mechanics...it is only now on the grander scale with the replacement mechanics. My contention is only that the pilots, had they supported the AMFA, would have sent NWA to bankruptcy quicker (which is what management wanted at that point...a reason to bust up labor contracts.)

I agree with the job action AMFA took. Who knew there would be 1500+ scabs waiting to take their jobs so willingly?...but it backfired and NWA management had the upper hand. Hurricane Katrina and the effect of gas prices is what gave NWA management enough reason to declare bankruptcy...but I assure you had the pilots struck with AMFA, NWA would have gone into CH. 11 that much sooner (which is what they wanted.)

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Who knew there would be 1500+ scabs waiting to take their jobs so willingly?..."



Ummmmm....they did. It was no secret that NW had these guys in training ready to go.....

 

[airmasn]

quote:
"Who knew there would be 1500+ scabs waiting to take their jobs so willingly?..."



Ummmmm....they did. It was no secret that NW had these guys in training ready to go.....[/quote

you are correct...I would have never guessed, though, that this tactic would have worked out in favor of management as well as it has.

 

[theo]

Not only is that true but it's always been the case. Unions are weak and bankruptcy-boosted management is strong right now. Welcome to the 21st century.

So if Unions were strong today, what would be different? Fewer bankrupt airlines? Until the industry gets some strength back in it and viable buisness plans in place unions will continue to be weak. This is a catharsis for the industry plenty of changes have happened almost all bad and plenty more to come. Hopefully in a few more years we will have weathered the storm and the cycle will start working in favor of the industry. Then maybe unions will be stronger again. The question then will become what next? A repeat of the last thirty years in union company relationships or something a little more enlightened?

 

[puddlejumper101]

Labor was in a downward spiral during CLinton's 8 years, chief. Don't kid yourself. Politicians get their money from corporations and wealthy shareholders.



Personally, I have to laugh at message-board pilots that think that things would have been better under John Kerry! If that was the best the Democratic party could offer, no wonder they lost.

Maybe, instead of blaming Bush, you should blame the DNC for giving America such a lousy slate of contenders . . . . and then they name Dean to head the party. You really want those buffoons running the country?

Not me.

politics is a dangerous game to play...an argument without a solution...I will say this, there is no telling what the Democrats would have done...maybe worse maybe better we will never know...what we do know is the US isn't exactly looking its finest these days...and sometimes the place to look is up top. Overall...i have seen this country in much better shape economically, socially, and spiritually than now. People are split, and morale isnt very high. 9/11 and Katrina were actions without control...the outcome of both is what troubles me...a war with an unknown enemy in Iraq and around the world, and a superpower very vulnerable to disasters...a sociaty that panics every time a hurricane comes 200 miles from shore. What happened in Houston before Rita hit had nothing to do with a hurricane but with a society that is panicking...scary very very scary. Mere mention of a natural disaster and this country goes bananas...the media is responsible for this and so is the government...and just like in private companies...when the ship is broke ask the captain...well the captains name is George W. Bush...doesn't the buck stop there? in 6 years the US is as vulnerable as ever...and we work in an industry that is directly tied to the actions of our federal government...if this keeps going we will all be either furloghed or working for crap. I travel the world for pleasure...been to every continent, and never have I seen soo much hate for this country and this president as now...incredible. Mere mention of America and people cringe...in Europe, South America, and Asia. To me, there is something very wrong with that picture...thats all i have to say.