Northwest trying to outsource pilots!

[On Your Six]

Somehow I doubt that pilots will be outsourced - no airline does that (very few precedents). However, many airlines outsource flight attendants in various parts of the world. I believe DAL uses some Indian flight attendants on the Mumbai and Delhi flights.

My opinion has always been that the old bag flight attendants need to be replaced on the lucrative international routes. When you compare Singapore fight attendants to Northwest flight attendants, the difference in service levels (and beauty) is HUGE. It can actually become a strategic advantage for the airline. I know of several people who will fly Singapore Airlines vs. cheaper alternatives for that reason alone - the service is that great.

The old bag, jaded flight attendants just won't cut it anymore - and that's the truth that nobody likes to acknowledge (all of those PC jerks)...

 

[inthewind]

My opinion has always been that the old bag flight attendants need to be replaced on the lucrative international routes. When you compare Singapore fight attendants to Northwest flight attendants, the difference in service levels (and beauty) is HUGE. It can actually become a strategic advantage for the airline. I know of several people who will fly Singapore Airlines vs. cheaper alternatives for that reason alone - the service is that great.

The old bag, jaded flight attendants just won't cut it anymore - and that's the truth that nobody likes to acknowledge (all of those PC jerks)...

I agree, Let's all fly Hooters Air!

 

[320AV8R]

Somehow I doubt that pilots will be outsourced - no airline does that (very few precedents)......

The cat was let out of the bag with NWA flying mainline routes with Champion crews and aircraft.....

When you compare Singapore fight attendants to Northwest flight attendants, the difference in service levels (and beauty) is HUGE.

Yea, but with limited mechanics, the NW F/As are husky enough to help change a tire, if you need them to.

320AV8R

 

[FlyinScotsman]

change a tire


good one.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lots of ignorant post and smart ones too. There is no one single source to blame.

Let's start with politics. Republicans are in bed with Corp America and Big Business. Many Air Line Pilots tie thier identity to being republican. In addition a false justification for an Air Line Pilot to vote republican is "if business grows then I grow with it." Wrong. Air Line pilots are unique but we are hourly blue collar labor. Accept it. The problem is GWB and his political allies don't care who is doing these blue collar jobs. Just as you don't care which hourly employee cleans toilets (mexican, legal, white, female, illegal) they don't care who does FA and pilot jobs. Can companies grow with outsourcing? You bet. Juan And Wang will fly our jets faster than you can say cabatoge...

Politics is where it starts and ends. If we want to secure our place as Air Line Pilots and our careers you better get informed.

YOU SUPORT THE POLITICAN WHO SUPPORTS YOUR ISSUE!

Sometimes that means supporting Dems, sometimes it means Repubs. Political branding is a waste of time! Instead of listening to your favorite politicans and talk show hosts to see how you feel about the issues, why not climb inside your head and determine your own issues then find the politician that supports your cause...


Does somebody have a 100% Guarantee on thier ALPA contract? Quit blaming ALPA. Too many pilots are simply too ignorant on ALPA. Who defined your (false) expectations of ALPA? (you did, silly) ALPA does not control hiring, termination or revenue. The company gets to choose. Sure you may have a no furlough clause... it is really viable?

AIR LINE PILOTS DO NOT RUN AIRLINES

You say ALPA should have supported the AMFA? Right, cause the union guys working full time on this issue are dumber than you. If ALPA walked on NWA then then airline would shut down and possibly go right to Ch. 7. Tough guys can stand in the unemployment line and say we showed them! Are you really willing to take that chance?

As the babyboomers and feminists (and the worthless kids they're raising) agenda continue to fuel this 'me me me' attitude and lifestyle, we are going to erode this culture and country from within.

If we don't start looking out for each other and stop saying 'Up Yours I got Mine' we will all be learning Chinese or whatever the national language of the next superpower is....


We get to Carry Each Other.

We not me.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

If we don't start looking out for each other and stop saying 'Up Yours I got Mine' we will all be learning Chinese or whatever the national language of the next superpower is....


We get to Carry Each Other.

We not me.

Rez, as usual you make a sensible post.

Six and 320,

As far as making fun of the older "husky" NW flight attendants, I pose this question:

What is "funnier" an older "husky" NW flight attendant or a 7 year NW pilot asking you if you want fries with your #1?

Hmmmm...

 

[Heavy Set]

I tend to agree with Six. Most of the legacy carriers have FAs who are waaaaaay past their prime. It's sad. Sure, you could say that many of the pilots are past their prime too, but technology helps to ensure they are on the right track. You can't use technology to change the bitter, jaded, careless attitudes on display among the older FAs who really don't seem to give a d@mn...

Every time I have flown on SWA, JetBlue, AirTran and even Song the FAs have been younger, more attentive and very positive (maybe because they don't know any better). For business passengers who view service as important, this disparity in service levels could make a difference. I witnessed an older NWA flight attendant actually yell at a First Class passenger a few days ago because she was trying to help a disabled passenger and was "in the way" - made me sick...

 

[800Dog]

Lots of ignorant post and smart ones too. There is no one single source to blame.

Let's start with politics. Republicans are in bed with Corp America and Big Business. Many Air Line Pilots tie thier identity to being republican. In addition a false justification for an Air Line Pilot to vote republican is "if business grows then I grow with it." Wrong. Air Line pilots are unique but we are hourly blue collar labor. Accept it. The problem is GWB and his political allies don't care who is doing these blue collar jobs. Just as you don't care which hourly employee cleans toilets (mexican, legal, white, female, illegal) they don't care who does FA and pilot jobs. Can companies grow with outsourcing? You bet. Juan And Wang will fly our jets faster than you can say cabatoge...

Politics is where it starts and ends. If we want to secure our place as Air Line Pilots and our careers you better get informed.

YOU SUPORT THE POLITICAN WHO SUPPORTS YOUR ISSUE!

Sometimes that means supporting Dems, sometimes it means Repubs. Political branding is a waste of time! Instead of listening to your favorite politicans and talk show hosts to see how you feel about the issues, why not climb inside your head and determine your own issues then find the politician that supports your cause...


Does somebody have a 100% Guarantee on thier ALPA contract? Quit blaming ALPA. Too many pilots are simply too ignorant on ALPA. Who defined your (false) expectations of ALPA? (you did, silly) ALPA does not control hiring, termination or revenue. The company gets to choose. Sure you may have a no furlough clause... it is really viable?

AIR LINE PILOTS DO NOT RUN AIRLINES

You say ALPA should have supported the AMFA? Right, cause the union guys working full time on this issue are dumber than you. If ALPA walked on NWA then then airline would shut down and possibly go right to Ch. 7. Tough guys can stand in the unemployment line and say we showed them! Are you really willing to take that chance?

As the babyboomers and feminists (and the worthless kids they're raising) agenda continue to fuel this 'me me me' attitude and lifestyle, we are going to erode this culture and country from within.

If we don't start looking out for each other and stop saying 'Up Yours I got Mine' we will all be learning Chinese or whatever the national language of the next superpower is....


We get to Carry Each Other.

We not me.

Well said Rez.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Somehow I doubt that pilots will be outsourced - no airline does that (very few precedents).

Actually most of them do (we just call them regional airlines, code shares or whatever) and it sure has grown....from 19 seat turbo prop pilots to 100 seat jet pilots....not to mention the airplanes too. What's next? All routes under 1,000 miles? 2,000 miles? All narrow body jets? Domestic flying?

 

[320AV8R]

Rez, as usual you make a sensible post.

Six and 320,

As far as making fun of the older "husky" NW flight attendants, I pose this question:

What is "funnier" an older "husky" NW flight attendant or a 7 year NW pilot asking you if you want fries with your #1?

Hmmmm...

WRV-

Don't get too flustered.

The point is that most US airline F/As don't stack up to those of Virgin Atlantic, Cathay, Thai, etc..... Except, of course, maybe Hooters Air.

320AV8R

 

[Tank Commander]

The fall of Rome began this way. Outsourcing to foreign army's and labor. Greed of the Senate and politicians. History always repeats it self.

 

[General Lee]

I see them adding Champion Airlines flights during rush periods, like holidays. Champion, owned by NW, might get some A320s to replace their older 727s.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[100LL... Again!]

Thanks to George W. Bush!

Labor will never have a chance to stand up to mgmt with guys like him in office appting. judges and magistrates and making policy - we are all FUBARed

Please cite, in detail, the exact actions that Bush took that has placed the airline industry, and airline unions in this position.

Ty webb your a fool.

Hair on fire is correct we are blue collar working men that is how the IRS classifies our job.

Ty Webb is one of those that votes republican and thinks he is above everyone else and then when his union has no power he just cries and cries and says well it is a very complex problem.

First of all, that should have been "you're a fool", not "your a fool".
"You're" is the correct contractraction for "you are".

Second, I think that your frivolous oversimplification that "It's all the Republicans/Bush's fault" shows a desperate need for a scapegoat, and demonstrates a real lack of interest in actualy analysis of the problem.

In the minds of many, the perfect union would solve all the problems. They think if we "all hang together", that we can't be defeated.

Guess what - we still can.

If all the nation's pilots got together and had a national walkout for better pay, we would have cabotage before we know it.

Because of Bush? Nope. The public would demand it. They want their cheap airfare, and they couldn't care less about you.

There is no more leverage.

The pilot unions are in the position they are because of a mixture of greed, complacency, and plain old bad luck.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Left field? You mean the 48% of Americans that voted against George Bush II in 2004? Or maybe the 51% that voted against him back in 2000? Perhaps the 70% of Americans that now think he's doing a lousy job? Left field is getting crowded.

Dream on, little man. 52% percent is more than Clinton got either time.
And republicans control both houses of congress? The house was overwhelmingly dem for years.

Go home and jack off to a picture of Dean or McGovern.

 

[100LL... Again!]

If the unions stuck together the company would have had no choice but to deal.

In the short term, yes. But while you all stood around congratulating yourselves, management would already be looking at other alternatives.

There are too many pilots available to do the job.

If half the pilots left the industry tomorrow, THEN management would have to deal. But again, cabotage would be right around the corner.

 

[densoo]

First of all, that should have been "you're a fool", not "your a fool". "You're" is the correct contraction for "you are".

In American English usage the punctuation goes inside the quotation mark:

"you are."

unless you are British, in which case it can go on the outside of the quotation mark. Are you? British?

Same problem here:

we "all hang together", that we can't be defeated.

should be

"we "all hang together," that we can't be defeated"

"It's all the Republicans/Bush's fault"

"Republicans" as you use it is possessive, plural possessive at that. As such, it should have an apostrophe after the "s" thusly: Republicans'

unless, of course, you meant it was the fault of one single Republican in which case it would be: Republican's. You probably didn't mean that, but since you put no apostrophe at all, it is unclear.

Guess what - we still can.

You probably meant to use a dash here:

"Guess what--we still can."

What you used is called a hyphen. It, too, is used improperly as a hyphen has no spaces on either side of it.

First of all, that should have been "you're a fool", not "your a fool". "You're" is the correct contraction for "you are".

Maybe JimDandy meant "your A-fool." Maybe there's a "B" fool, "C" fool, etc. There were many cats in Cat in the Hat.

Maybe there are many fools.

 

[b757driver]

politics is a dangerous game to play...an argument without a solution...I will say this, there is no telling what the Democrats would have done...maybe worse maybe better we will never know...what we do know is the US isn't exactly looking its finest these days...and sometimes the place to look is up top. Overall...i have seen this country in much better shape economically, socially, and spiritually than now. People are split, and morale isnt very high. 9/11 and Katrina were actions without control...the outcome of both is what troubles me...a war with an unknown enemy in Iraq and around the world, and a superpower very vulnerable to disasters...a sociaty that panics every time a hurricane comes 200 miles from shore. What happened in Houston before Rita hit had nothing to do with a hurricane but with a society that is panicking...scary very very scary. Mere mention of a natural disaster and this country goes bananas...the media is responsible for this and so is the government...and just like in private companies...when the ship is broke ask the captain...well the captains name is George W. Bush...doesn't the buck stop there? in 6 years the US is as vulnerable as ever...and we work in an industry that is directly tied to the actions of our federal government...if this keeps going we will all be either furloghed or working for crap. I travel the world for pleasure...been to every continent, and never have I seen soo much hate for this country and this president as now...incredible. Mere mention of America and people cringe...in Europe, South America, and Asia. To me, there is something very wrong with that picture...thats all i have to say.

I have to agree with the above poster.....like him, I have spent several years - as an OUTSOURCED US pilot - flying for a foriegn carrier because I was "not competitive enough" or some other B.S. There is not a single country that I have visited that has anything good to say about the US and that is very telling. Most folks on this board have not had that opportunity of actually living overseas to see all this. It is not very comfortable, that's for sure and right now, the US airline industry is in complete shambles - not so overseas. Again, very sad state of affairs.
Yes, the buck has to stop somewhere, and I would have thought that would be the C-in-C. His poilicies in just about everything have certainly not helped. The one single thing that I'm told by people outside of the US, is that Americans are extremely insular, and mostly do not know about politics outside their own borders. Again, Having seen both sides of the divide, I have to agree to some extent.
Outsourcing is not new, I've been outsourced twice and still can't get a decent job back home; never a problem overseas, just back home. That, too, is very telling.
But there is hope.....just heard today in the foreign press that a certain British bank which outsourced most of their services has done a massive U-turn by NOT renewing the contract which outsourced call center work to Bangalore, India! Why? Because of pressure from their customers, tons of complaints when dealing with the foreign associates in the call center. And they were actually LOSING money in the long-term. Wow, what a concept...

 

[320AV8R]

I see them adding Champion Airlines flights during rush periods, like holidays. Champion, owned by NW, might get some A320s to replace their older 727s.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General-

Champion is NOT owned by NWA.

It is a separate and independent airline.

Like Sun Country, it has a MSP crew base, quite convienent for NWA management.

320AV8R

 

[xjlifer]

In American English usage the punctuatin goes inside the quotation mark:

"you are."

unless you are British, in which case it can go on the outside of the quotation mark. Are you? British?

Same problem here:


should be "we "all hang together," that we can't be defeated"


"Republicans" as you use it is possessive, plural possessive at that. As such, it should have an apostrophe after the "s" thusly: Republicans'

unless, of course, you meant it was the fault of one single Republican in which case it would be: Republican's. You probably didn't mean that, but since you put no apostrophe at all, it is unclear.


You probably meant to use a hyphen here:

"Guess what--we still can."

What you used is called a dash.


Maybe JimDandy meant "your A-fool." Maybe there's a "B" fool, "C" fool, etc. There were many cats in Cat in the Hat.

Maybe there are many fools.

Gotta love it.....I is a fool ...but I know it....he is a fool...yet he knows it not!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Please cite, in detail, the exact actions that Bush took that has placed the airline industry, and airline unions in this position.

One clear and deliberate action the Bush Admin took was to change the financial reporting requirements for unions. From general to detailed requirements, unions had to divert and devote much more man hours and funds to comply with this change. (that is your union dues). Why was the old way bad and the new way good?

Hows that for detail? Now I'm sure you can put some spin on it, but before you do, how about the burden of proof be put on you. Tell us how the Bush Administration has helped airline unions. Cause if W. isn't helping us he is hurting.

Now, of course, this change in union reporting requirements isn't the reason the whole airline industry is in this position. But as an airline pilot with a pension, wouldn't you rather have an Administration that will at least listen to your concerns about your retirement going away? Perhaps you don't have a pension, but as an Air Line Pilot you do have issues. Do you want to be heard? Or simply shut out?

When Clinton was in office, ALPA could pick up the phone and talk to a White House policy advisor. Since the Bush Admin, there is no contact at all. How can you work your issue if you aren't allowed to speak?

When ALPA endorses Kerry or Gore or Clinton is just pisses the hel! out of Air Line Pilots. "God Damm! I am a meat and potatoes, Type A personality, pick up driving, red blooded American! How dare ALPA endorse a democrat! I'm not for gay rights, animals rights, Hollywood stars etc... I'm just going to have to resign from ALPA. ALPA is messing with my identity!"

As Air Line Pilots we have got to get off this identity branding. Just becuase Kerry supports Air Line Pilots doesn't mean Air Line Pilots support gay rights. This basic understanding is very difficult for many.

We have got some serious issues in the next 5-20 years. Many pilots have the mindset that we are in tough times but they will be over soon. I disagree, the worst is yet to come. During these tough times, the concerned parties are going to influence the politicans to make changes to the CFR. Once those changes are made it might not matter whether to good times are here or not.

Here is a short list of what we have to look out for. Each one of these has complex issues. There are no easy fixes...

• Foreign Ownership
• Foreign Labor
• Cabatoge
• Pilot Career Protection
• Collective Bargaining Rights
• Flight Duty Times
• Age 60

I believe the Air Line Pilot Profession is in the balance. I also think we can save it. But we have to get educated and informed on the issues, how the system works and what to do to envoke change in our favor. The more of us that understand this, the more effective we can be.