Non-IFR..When is final approach determined?

[TurboS7]

Most 121 FOM's require you to be stabilized at either 500 feet or 1000 feet for a visual approach. This would mean that you need to be established on final at 500 and 1.5 miles from the end of the runway giving a 3 degree glideslope. There are many ways to establish this via VASI/HAT, FMC, etc. etc. The exception would be an approach as TGU, approaching from the south, or River app DCA etc., etc.,.

 

[pilotmiketx]

Turbo,
The original poster obviously didn't want to be bothered with how it's done in the real world. He wanted the page out of the regs that says:

"When operating at a non-towered aiport under VMC, an aircraft, for the purpose of establishing right of way pursuant to 91.113, is considered to be "Landing" when...blah blah blah...notwithstanding blah blah blah...something about the Administrator...blah blah blah..."

 

[zugzug]

EXACTLY!

 

[TurboS7]

I am sorry I thought this was a pilot board, personally I try to stay as far away as I can from the FAA, NTSB, and all the other 3 and 4 letter words.Guess the poster needs to go to FAA.gov and get the real answers from the real pilots.

 

[pilotmiketx]

such an important topic, too. wonder why it hasn't come up before. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

 

[zugzug]

"I am sorry I thought this was a pilot board."

Golly gee, it is, need a hug now?:crying:

 

[A Squared]

such an important topic, too. wonder why it hasn't come up before. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

Actually, it has come up before, fairly often on this board and others. There's another thread which just popped up today having to do with this same subject. ANd there will be others. THe reason it keep coming up are twofold;

1) there is ample opportunity for conflict between aircraft on base and aircraft on a long final. people's egos get involved and hostility results.

2) There is a great deal of ambiguity in who has the right of way, and when in that situation.

A nice pat answer to zugzug's question just doesn't exist though.

 

[zugzug]

Thank you A2

 

[pilotmiketx]

It's pretty clear to me...

(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

The only people who get "hostile" are buffoons who are either ignorant of this reg, or are in violation of it by trying to take advantage of it.

 

[A Squared]

It's pretty clear to me...

Not to be a smart a$$$ .... ummm OK I'm a smarta$$ ... If it's clear to you, you just haven't tried to think it through.

When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

If you think about that a little, what it really says is that the lower aircraft has the right of way, but wait, actually an aircraft on final has the right of way, so who has right of way? When are you considerd to be on final (ie: when do you get the right of way over a lower aircraft on base?) 1/4 mile final? 1/2 mile final? 2 mile final? 4 mile final?, l 5 mile final? 10 mile final? When exactly are you "on final" in the context of 91.113(g) ????

Or to look at tit from the opposite perspective, you're in the pattern, on a nice tight left downwind, about to turn base, you become aware that somone is on a straight in final for the same runway. How close do thye have to be before you are obligated to give way to them and extend your downwind? 5 miles? 10? 20? if sonone calls a 30 mile straight in, do you still have to extend and let then go first?


If you've got a definitive answer for that, I wouldn't mind knowing too.


In addition to the inherent ambiguity of the regulation itself, there is a further level of confusion in how it is applied by the NTSB. IN an NTSB ruling regarding an enforcement action stemming from a traffic pattern conflict, the NTSB stated:

"Aircraft making valid straight-in approaches at uncontrolled airports would, nevertheless, be deemed in violation of FAR section 91.89(a) [now 91.126 and 91.127] if they interfered with other aircraft operating in the standard left-hand pattern."

Which seems effectively to transfer the right ofway from the aircraft on final to aircraft "in the pattern"

So, the question still stands when on final do you gain right of way over other aircraft?

The only people who get "hostile" are buffoons who are either ignorant of this reg, or are in violation of it by trying to take advantage of it.

I'll partially agree with that .... if you're getting hostile, you're probably a buffoon.