No pressure fatigue calls?

[JoeMerchant]

If the reasons you listed are really the reasons for the onslaught of fatigue calls recently, then no. It's not all right. But we all know that the word "fatigue" has only just now surfaced because the company decided to push the limits of the pilot group.

So no, I don't have sympathy for ASA and it's management. They are acting as if their actions haven't directly had an impact on these fatigue calls.

So you are saying the company doesn't care if it causes a pilot fatigued accident.....That goes against what you said earlier....Which is it?

If you are fatigued, you will be OK. Act professionally, and you will be OK. ASA management is better than it was in the past, and it is better than the other regional managements. I guess you would rather have Mesa, CHQ, Trans States, or Eagle management....

 

[LazyLightnin']

So you are saying the company doesn't care if it causes a pilot fatigued accident.....That goes against what you said earlier....Which is it?

If you are fatigued, you will be OK. Act professionally, and you will be OK. ASA management is better than it was in the past, and it is better than the other regional managements. I guess you would rather have Mesa, CHQ, Trans States, or Eagle management....

If they cared more about preventing the fatigue calls than policing them, they would staff us accordingly. This issue was not even a topic 8 months ago when pilots weren't getting extended and repeatedly overworked.

Of course, with your seniority, you're in left field as far as these issues are concerned. Although, seeing as you probably are toting an AARP card, left field is probably your general state of mind.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If they cared more about preventing the fatigue calls than policing them, they would staff us accordingly. This issue was not even a topic 8 months ago when pilots weren't getting extended and repeatedly overworked.

Of course, with your seniority, you're in left field as far as these issues are concerned. Although, seeing as you probably are toting an AARP card, left field is probably your general state of mind.

So you are saying they don't mind an accident....Got it....You are an idiot.....If you don't like reserve, then you better hope we grow.....If you want us to grow, then you better quit crying like a baby....Your choice.....

 

[LazyLightnin']

So you are saying they don't mind an accident....Got it....You are an idiot.....If you don't like reserve, then you better hope we grow.....If you want us to grow, then you better quit crying like a baby....Your choice.....

Right...

 

[buscap]

You guys are embarrassing yourselves.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Ahh, come on!! If you buy that..

I can look at a pairing and tell you in 5 seconds if it's fatiguing or not. So ASA is suddenly trying to convene panels and conduct "studies" on things that have been known for YEARS. It's a farce. They know if (when) they put one in the dirt they can fall back on this and say-

Hey, we tried but stimed by those bad boy pilots who wouldn't fill out the survey

I've got a suggestion- hire someone with an IQ over 100 who can put together a trip to save their life.

The study/evaluation is about determining the best decision point. The safest flight is one that doesn't ever leave the gate. The best rested trips are those with one leg to the overnight, and one leg back the next day. Clearly those aren't going to work though.

The company has to determine where to draw the line, and what kind of trips to build. What is an acceptable circadian swap? 1100 duty in to 0400? 1500 to 0500?

There has to be some give and take because the commuters want to swap from late duty in on the first day to early on the last. That kind of swap is exactly what the guy who lives in ATL hates. There just isn't any way to make everyone happy, so they are studying the issue to find the best way to build the trips to be safe, and to keep most people in the happy zone.

 

[buscap]

Well, the company can't have their cake and eat it too, either.

One hand brings pilots into the CPO for a heavy "discussion" with pay issues, while the other hand wants forms filled out strictly for nice-nice.

 

[CFI2766]

The questions aren't to give you a hard time. The company is doing research to see how to mitigate the fatigue issues. They are even convening groups of reserve pilots to discuss the issue, and looking into software to evaluate trips to reduce circadian rhythm swaps.

Just because someone asks you about your fatigue, that doesn't mean you are being pressured, or disciplined. The safety department wants the form filled out to help with determining the risk to the operation.

Believe me folks, if the safety department feels that there is a substantial risk, things will get changed. The only way to determine the risk is to compile data. Be honest, and report what you're seeing out there, reserve guys. It will be a good tool for you to speak directly to the management about the issue.

We are a commercial enterprise. Of course the viewpoints on this issue will be different between the CSSC department and the Flight Ops department. (Frankly, in a capitalistic society populated by moral people, this is how it should be.)

Let's be honest here: The head of the CSSC department doesn't want to be the head of the CSSC department forever. Is it reasonable to suspect that decisions made in the capacity of the head of safety might be viewed from the prism of how it might affect future career progression in the company? Most reasonable people would say so.

By the same token, an occupant of the CPO either wants to maintain his presence there, or, alternatively, enhance his attractiveness for other positions of increasing authority, and therefore, increasing compensation, within the company.

In general, this does not make the CPO occupant nor the CSSC folks bad people. However, it certainly does give the perception that decisions made regarding safety and fatigue are not made solely for the purpose of addressing safety and fatigue.

A crew lounge filled with 10 different pilots and 10 different GO dwellers will have 20 different opinions on how to address fatigue in aircraft operations.

 

[CFI2766]

The study/evaluation is about determining the best decision point. The safest flight is one that doesn't ever leave the gate. The best rested trips are those with one leg to the overnight, and one leg back the next day. Clearly those aren't going to work though.

The company has to determine where to draw the line, and what kind of trips to build. What is an acceptable circadian swap? 1100 duty in to 0400? 1500 to 0500?

There has to be some give and take because the commuters want to swap from late duty in on the first day to early on the last. That kind of swap is exactly what the guy who lives in ATL hates. There just isn't any way to make everyone happy, so they are studying the issue to find the best way to build the trips to be safe, and to keep most people in the happy zone.

I nearly wholly agree with this. Well articulated. My only change would be with regards to who gets to 'draw the line' between an acceptable and an overly fatiguing trip.

If it were solely the company's discretion as to how to build the pairing, minimum rest with maximum productivity from a financial standpoint would determine the construction of the pairing. If it were an individual pilot's discretion as to trip construction, it would be maximum pay with minimum block. (The third variable in the equation would be the work rules peer groups in the industry operate under.)

To address pilot absenteeism, as well as pilot morale, I think that most pilots of an airline would prefer to have a voice in trip construction.

Ideally, there will be some significant changes to FTDT rules in our near future. Though it could be perceived by the RAA as inconvenient in the near term, having a level playing field that respects fatigue issues is in everyone's best interests.

 

[CFI2766]

Well, the company can't have their cake and eat it too, either.

One hand brings pilots into the CPO for a heavy "discussion" with pay issues, while the other hand wants forms filled out strictly for nice-nice.

Win. Filled with win.