No More Hats at ExpressJet

[Air Biscuit]

Perhaps I got it figured out....

Pay a pilot 300K to fly big jets, with defined benefit plan, great healthcare, bennies, etc.. and he will wear a 17th century ship hat with feathers in it and you can call him a Clipper Capt....or whatever you want....

Lay the pilot off, destroy his career expectations, put him debt, get him a divorce and he'll take that airline hat, light it on fire and throw it freesbie style into the nearest dumpster......

You hit the nail on the head!

 

[Cosmo1999]

He'll take that airline hat, light it on fire and throw it freesbie style into the nearest dumpster......

Now your talkin my friend! We should find the most creative ways to get rid of the hat.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Fine, don't wear the hat.
Be mistaken as a flight attendant, wearing the same wings as him or her, and using the same type of roller board.

Fine, be a moron.
Be mistaken for a turbonerd who feels the hat is the only thing that defines the airline pilot. Totally ignore the stripes, and that big box flight case.

 

[Whiskerbizkit]

Remember, all the hat natzis are either:

A. Balding
B. Hung like a gerbel

If you dont like me not wearing my hat, well you can suck my a$$. If you acually had the balls to approach me, you would get a FU right back.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

As far as the contract goes we will know in less than a week as to the final vote. My vote is a big fat no. It is a giant step backwards as far as hard pay, less than you guys and duration of the contract.

How is it a "step backwards" Air Biscuit? We added 30% cost increases to the pilot contract in the first 12 months of the TA (not counting another $30.6 million of retro wages paid at Comair rates for the past 26 months, which is back to the amendable date).

The union and ALPA are using scare tactics into getting people to vote yes. Basically saying that we will never be released under Bush and that is what it will take to do any better, so we better lock in the slight gains now and live with it.

Wrong Air Biscuit. We are not saying that we will "never be released." We are saying that we have zero confidence that we will see a release in the next 6-12 months. Please don't put words in our mouths for the internet world to read that we didn't actually say.

Secondly, what "scare tactics" are we using to get people to vote yes? We (the NC, MEC, SPC, ALPA advisors) all believe that locking in the gains made under this TA outweighs the risks associated with holding out for more (something that may or may not be there). Pilots are free to vote however they wish. We just want people to a) vote and b) vote in an informed and rational manner...not using emotion.

-Neal

Neal Schwartz
XJT ALPA Negotiating Committee Chairman

 

[BlackPilot628]

I'm with Rex. Some people wear them at and some people don't.
I don't think my company is big on the idea of doing so or not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rez O. Lewshun
Perhaps I got it figured out....

Pay a pilot 300K to fly big jets, with defined benefit plan, great healthcare, bennies, etc.. and he will wear a 17th century ship hat with feathers in it and you can call him a Clipper Capt....or whatever you want....

Lay the pilot off, destroy his career expectations, put him debt, get him a divorce and he'll take that airline hat, light it on fire and throw it freesbie style into the nearest dumpster......

You hit the nail on the head!

And this is my point......nailed... Pilots are reactive to the issue of their image. They'd rather be a product of thier environment......

Look at the NRA. They are so effective as a special interest group. We could be like that....for the issue of our career, but we are not, cause we are not organized, effective and educated.

We can have so much more control...but we can't even see the value in promoting our image....

It is tough to keep wearing that damm hat when our careers are circling the dump valve...

but the trick is not to give in and keep fighting for what we worked hard for...

 

[Whiskerbizkit]

HAHAHA! aaahhh You're an idiot.

1.For me to get an FU right back, I would have to approach you with an FU to start with.

2. Sounds like you have a thing for men. Somehow you know how they're hung, if they wear a hat or not. Then you want another GUY to suck you a$$

And its NAZI....there is no "T"
Time to shut you mouth, and stick your head back up your butt.

With that avatar and " need some wood" signature it looks like your the one with a limp wrist.

 

[Stearmandriver]

Not picking on you personally Rez; it's just that your comments best served to illustrate my problems with this issue:

The hat or the pilot, rather, is better respected. Tell me who doesn't want to be respected?...

Frankly, I don't want respect for its own sake. Those that do are egomaniacal tools. I only care about respect if it's coming from someone that I respect - anyone else's opinion of me is meaningless to me. And I honestly can't respect someone who would form an opinion of a pilot or a person based on their dress code. Silliness.

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]
I don’t want to be clumped together with corporate pilots, 135 pilots or especially Sky Cab taxi pilots. I want to be known as an Airline Pilot, who happens to be the safest, most professional group of aviators in the world.

[/font]

This is just an a**hole elitist statement. You don't want to be confused with those "other pilots", who supposedly are inherently less skilled than you? I'll tell you something: I've been very fortunate to experience a very broad spectrum of the aviation world thus far, and the truth is... 121 flying is the least challenging, most pre-ordained flying there is. Thus, it follows that 121 pilots are the least skilled at thinking and flying outside the box. Now, this is only my opinion, but it's based on a good bit of experience in trying to transition all sorts of pilots into challenging airplanes: 121 pilots, in general, are the poorest stick-and-rudder pilots out there. That's not a slam, just an observation that I've heard many other folks with similar experience make as well. It's ok for the 121 world, because we are very rarely called upon to be exceptional stick-and-rudder pilots... but how arrogant to think yourself somehow "above" another pilot who doesn't wear a hat, and who also might be quite a bit more skilled!

Lastly, here's a comment from another board regarding this issue... I found it funny as hell:
"I mean I read a thread the other day about the hat now being optional at Xjet and you should have seen the responses on how the hat signifies the professionalism of the industry and seperates us "121" pilots from the rest of those "other" pilots. ITS A HAT. I was walking in Manhattan recently and I saw a guy wearing that hat. HE WAS A DOORMAN."



Oh, and now there's a response on the other board to that quote above. Also funny and applicable:
"That's the funniest thing I've read all day. I paid my way through school and flight training working as a doorman at a fancy hotel. I always figured the 121 pilots were trying to look like doormen since we made more money."

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Stearman,

Good feedback....

Please don't confuse personal beliefs with an image that needs to be conveyed to the public. I don't think I am better than other types of pilots. But if management believes that we are the same as other pilots that make less it is harder to negotiate for higher pay. Higher pay is ok... isn't it?

Let's not confuse the issue, the hat is only a symbol it isn't reality. Image is everything. It doesn't matter if you failed your checkride last week, what matters is what the pax believe! (btw, Stick and rudder skills are not really needed in 121 flying. Autopilot on at 600ft and off at 80ft says it all.)

You can't convince your passengers you are the best and safest if you don't think you are... And you can't convince managment to pay you more either, if you don't think you are worth it.. In other words if you are indifferent about your profession then expect indifferent pay.

This is similar to the fighter jock mentality. These guys are feed that they are the best. Well they can't go into a dog fight thinking any less. And you don't want your negotiating team and the general public thinking any less either...

Look I am not advocating inflated egos... That is done automatically with the Joe Cool self induced "mavericks"

What I am advocating is the airline pilot profession and the hope of keeping this career alive. Does anyone have any ideas to do that? The industry keeps jacking us DOWN! Are we going to stay adrift in this sea of change waiting and hoping for good fortunes to return? The best pilots can say right now is "well at least I got a job" Well, what about a career? Who are you waiting for to "give" you your career back?

Nobody cares more about pilots than pilots. The only people that are going to save the airline pilot career is us...

The hat is just the start... We are under organized and under educated.... There is going to be a lot more divorce, personal bankruptcy, debt, depression and a little suicide before anything gets done.....if at all.....

 

[Stearmandriver]

Rez,

Good feedback to my feedback. Where we disagree is that I don't think a symbol like the hat matters. I don't think image is everything; I think reality is. What matters is not looking like professionals, but acting like them. Fly safe, put customer service at the top of your priorities, and do your job the way the folks who write your paycheck want it done. Personally, I'm glad Xjet made the hat optional, cause I never liked it. However, when it was required, I always wore it. They pay me after all (albeit not nearly enough).

Otherwise, good post and I agree with everything else.

 

[COEX-FO]

This thread is interesting. As I work for the 'hat optional' airline, no one has mentioned how the PASSENGERS dressed in the days of the white hat Pan Am crew era!

Passsengers used to wear suits and ties, ladies in dresses. Pilots in full uniform with hats! First class was always a suit, perhaps a sport coat and tie in the back.

Have any of you passed by a SWA gate lately just before boarding? Check out the pax. I'm mean some of them truly stretch the limits of socially acceptable dress. Even on the high ticket price airlines, the first class passengers these days seem to find jeans as the norm.

So, perhaps the hat is the 'proper' attire for airline crews, but as compared to the old days, we still stand out even with the summer uniform of shirt, tie and dress black pants.

Just another way of looking at how things have evolved in the dress arena for airline travel.

 

[Nick5600]

Geez If we must keep the cap, and 19th century uniform lets change some other things back as well. I say we get rid of girlie pilots, and all flight attendents must be attractive women who have a RN. LETS get freaking real here. It doesn't really matter, I fly some of that top 2% salary bracket around, and they could give a SH^T what I wear. They just want to get their safley and quickly. I think in airline industry you guys have a bit more important stuff to worry about... Like your paycheck. I would put money on the fact that the same ones that HAVE to have the NAZI cap are also the same ones that think women have no place in cockpit. Well look around you times are changing, and while you cling on to your so called professional looks, your airline is going tits up. Then again when you get that pink slip it will be easy to walk down the Street and get a job as a doorman at the hotel where the logical modern pilots overnights.

my .02cents on the issue.

 

[ERJ2FLY]

Exjet management said "no way" when Gordon (in an effort to completely disassociate XJet from CAL) wanted them wearing WHITE hats. Yes, WHITE hats.

If you want to verify, call Jimmy N. He'll tell you the story.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

How can you guys have such a long thread about the fuking cover? Unless your signature is at the bottom of your paycheck, wear the uniform your company prescribes....

I agree 100%.

And whats with some of the airlines I see issuing military leather to the pilots???

Many airlines allow the leather jacket. SWA, AA, XJT, and Comair are a few. It is far more functional than the blazer. We've gotten many compliments from passengers on the jacket...and I like wearing it because I don't have to carry a second jacket for the layover, etc...plus it is really warm. But I do believe the blazer looks better. Go figure. I go with function over form.

You're driving a bus not an F-XX or B-XX....

Do you wear your G-1 when you're in that T-45?

-Neal

 

[414Flyer]

And whats with some of the airlines I see issuing military leather to the pilots??? You're driving a bus not an F-XX or B-XX....

However they must be going into combat, based on the numbers of tail gunners working in the cabin.

 

[flyup]

Pay me to wear the hat. I make 1200 a month...

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I've also seen a particual pilot while I was waiting for a flight with said leather jacket with college patches, pitts patch, EAA patch, and other crap sewn on it. How gay..... Pete Mitchell is the only "military pilot" (for those of you that get that joke) I've seen ever put more than a leather name tag and leather squadron patch on it.

Those of us who wear the jacket for work cannot put any patches on it, etc and I agree that anyone that has one of those jackets with the patches deserves the "tool award." Heck, I chuckle when I see guys off duty for my company (not on a layover) who are wearing our jacket. Mine gets worn only while being paid per diem.

My female friends think Pete did look good playing volleyball though. They probably wouldn't have thought so if he was playing in that leather jacket with his F-14 patches.

-Neal

 

[Britpilot]

And whats with some of the airlines I see issuing military leather to the pilots??? You're driving a bus not an F-XX or B-XX....

Wow, you have to be in the military to wear a leather jacket?
What a tool.

 

[atrdriver]

There are plenty of other issues more pertinent to the long-term viability of this career than a hat. If everyone got as emotional about cabotage, job security, securing pensions, maintaining pay scales and benefits, and outsourcing as they do about hats, we'd be much better off.

Maybe this is one of the reasons that the industry IS in the toilet. We show the passengers a Wal-Mart product, and they expect a Wal-Mart price. If I went to a lawyer who wore sweats into court I wouldn't expect the same product that I would get with one who dressed the part...

 

[atrdriver]

I wonder how many still wear them after finding out what a pain in the butt they are to tote around, especially if you commute.

They aren't hard to tote around at all if they are on your head.

There are times that I would prefer not to wear a hat, like in the middle of the summertime, it is part of our uniform, and I am proud to wear that uniform, including the hat.

 

[rogerthat]

Maybe this is one of the reasons that the industry IS in the toilet. We show the passengers a Wal-Mart product, and they expect a Wal-Mart price. If I went to a lawyer who wore sweats into court I wouldn't expect the same product that I would get with one who dressed the part...

So an airline pilot wearing slacks and a blazer with no hat is the equivalent of a lawyer wearing sweats? You might be able to use that hat of yours to hide the top of your head from the customers, but it's not going to hide your inadquacies.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So an airline pilot wearing slacks and a blazer with no hat is the equivalent of a lawyer wearing sweats? You might be able to use that hat of yours to hide the top of your head from the customers, but it's not going to hide your inadquacies.

It is not about ego! Step away from the mirror.

It is about image and preception of the public. Put yourself in the shoes of the passenger that comes to the airport twice a year.

EVERYTHING at the airport is new, unfamiliar and interesting. When these type of people see pilots, what do the EXPECT to see?

Justification comes in all forms including "the only thing passengers care about is ticket price!"

When you only fly twice a year and you strap your tail in the seat, you no longer care about your wallet and you hope the two pilots upfront are the safest and most professional! The only way you have to judge this is by the pilots you saw in the terminal, even though they aren't your pilots!!

 

[Air Biscuit]

They aren't hard to tote around at all if they are on your head.

There are times that I would prefer not to wear a hat, like in the middle of the summertime, it is part of our uniform, and I am proud to wear that uniform, including the hat.

Are you proud of that paycheck too?

 

[aa30]

""If I went to a lawyer who wore sweats into court I wouldn't expect the same product that I would get with one who dressed the part...""


You go to a doctor that wears basically pajamas to the operating room and the office...do you expect an inferior product from him/her?

Listen - all you "PROFESSIONAL PILOT" guys, nobody except you and your Riddle buddies care that you are an airline pilot. For pete's sake, all we are is grossly underpaid greyhound bus drivers, and i am an assistant bus driver at that.

i for one am glad we got rid of the hat...i was getting tired of carrying it around.

 

[Ben Franklin]

You go to a doctor that wears basically pajamas to the operating room and the office...do you expect an inferior product from him/her?

No, but when I see the Corvette/Ferrari/Mercedes that he/she drove to work in it makes me wonder why I don't start wearing pajamas to work.


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[svcta]

Don't give up now

I have to side with the "hatties" here. Remember when Airtran was ValueJet? Their pilots wore denim shirts and khakis. We all called it a virtual airline and laughed and laughed. They even had a guy how would blow the harmonica on over the PA while he did anouncements. How cute. This really was the beginning of the end of the respectable airline pilot image. The general public has, for whatever reason, a general disgust for us and would love to see us treated as the bus drivers they think we are. Our last hope against the newspapers, TV, and company reps blaming us for everything that is wrong with the world is to continue to maintain as professional image as we can. If we don't look like we're proud of what we do and who we are then, in their eyes, we're not any better than a "sky-cabbie".
I may go for days without shaving, but when I show up to the airport I take pride in presenting myself like I've got my sh!t together. Wether it's a plane-load of people or a bunch of car parts I'm taking from Walla Walla to Kokomo. Whoever said it was right, people are paying more attention than you think they are. And I want to make them think of us the way that they used to. Even if the only reason they have to is how we present ourselves. Of course, I understand how this will be recieved, most of you seemed to have never learned to spell. Ha. Low blow, I know, but jeepers, people.

 

[AirBill]

Didn't "line pilots" used to wear hats and cold weather gear and scarves and goggles?

What, they're not required anymore?

 

[aa30]

How can you be so goddammn self rightous, all you do is throw the gear up and down (no I don't mean that seriously). But honestly, if you're SO under paid, why are you acceptinig substandard wages? Why don't you go find a job that pays you what you're worth? Professionalism is a funtion of attitude, not hours or the size of your paycheck. If it were my airline, I'd personally throw your ass to the curb with that attitude.

Your attitude may change if/when you decide to come to the civilian world. Every time I talk with my friends in the military, they can't believe how little we get paid. (Granted, pay increases with years of longevity, but initially it is super low.) And, admittedly, I may be incorrect in assuming that you should be grouped with my military friends...you may know more about "regional" airline pay than they. Currently, my fellow pilots and I are trying to get a contract that pays us closer to what we're worth. While that may not be a function of professionalism, neither is wearing a hat.

 

[007]

I don't understand how a hat, a hat, no I mean a hat, can be such an inflammatory topic.

Doesn't mean we all look like slobs. I still wear mine occassionally to cover my bald head. I think it's a great rule.

If you all wanna get into a semantic discussion about professionalism over our uniform, then I wanna know why we all still wear a "NAVAL" uniform.

A "NAVAL" uniform, which by the way was started by Pan Am for Spruce Goose pilots as I understand it, and everyone just kind of adopted, because it looked good. A company which is long gone.

Truth is we all were never creative enough to come up with something better.

And if there is no uniform and we start wearing PJ's and the car that you drive shows how professional you are then I must be a total slob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!