No more CHQ and GJs Jumpseaters

[ilinipilot]

I think the real culprit is Jet Blue. How can CHQ improve their pay scales when a bigger carrier with bigger equip has already proposed a lower pay scale. I can see the negotiations now, we would like XXX rates for our 190s. And bedford responds ummmm NO since Jet Blue pays less that is what we will pay you. We have no leg to stand on in negotiations with the Jet Blue rates. I havenothing against JB at all, I am just pointing out something.

 

[bvt1151]

The CHQ payrates and contract cetainly leave much to be desired (all regional CBAs do), but the pilot group can cetainly not be blamed for that. As CHQ pilots have explained, their rates were negotiated under duress, much like the Mesa contract thanks to the Freedumb pilots. I seriously doubt that the 190 rates at CHQ would look like they do now if Republic was not a threat to their job security at the time.

I'm so sick of hearing that the CHQ pilots could do nothing because of Republic. They allowed it to happen, and that is the fault of the CHQ pilots. They caved and gave in to demands and pay in order to "make up" for their prior mistake. Not only that, but CHQ negotiated their 190 rates prior to JetBlue. It could very easily be argued that they are the reason for JetBlue's low rates, rather than vice-versa. Seems CHQ has been right behind Mesa in the nose-dive for the bottom all along.

If management has you by the juevos, its your fault for putting them in their hands to begin with.

 

[h25b]

I'm so sick of hearing that the CHQ pilots could do nothing because of Republic. They allowed it to happen, and that is the fault of the CHQ pilots. They caved and gave in to demands and pay in order to "make up" for their prior mistake. Not only that, but CHQ negotiated their 190 rates prior to JetBlue. It could very easily be argued that they are the reason for JetBlue's low rates, rather than vice-versa. Seems CHQ has been right behind Mesa in the nose-dive for the bottom all along.

If management has you by the juevos, its your fault for putting them in their hands to begin with.

Please explain how CHQ "allowed" Republic to happen... They didn't allow that to happen. Please don't hurt yourself jumping on the bash CHQ bandwagon.

 

[bvt1151]

Please explain how CHQ "allowed" Republic to happen... They didn't allow that to happen. Please don't hurt yourself jumping on the bash CHQ bandwagon.

What did CHQ do to prevent the Republic threat? Nothing. They waited until the threat materialized, and then, when it was too late, they dealt with it and said there was nothing they could do. This is how they allowed it to happen.

The fact that they did nothing to proactively eliminate the Republic threat places the blame squarely on their shoulders. I do not buy the argument that things "were just different," because they weren't as it applies to this situation. They were fooled by a management tactic, and nothing else (except maybe the magical "fast upgrade" illusion). No other situation lended itself to CHQ's contract collapse except for management's genius move of creating a new airline. You'd think the pilots would have gotten the hint after the Freedom fiasco...but no... not Chautauqua. Now we see 190 rates below 50-seat rates. Nobody to blame but themselves, and they don't seem to care, as long as bigger, newer planes come.

 

[h25b]

What did CHQ do to prevent the Republic threat? Nothing. They waited until the threat materialized, and then, when it was too late, they dealt with it and said there was nothing they could do. This is how they allowed it to happen.

The fact that they did nothing to proactively eliminate the Republic threat places the blame squarely on their shoulders. I do not buy the argument that things "were just different," because they weren't as it applies to this situation. They were fooled by a management tactic, and nothing else (except maybe the magical "fast upgrade" illusion). No other situation lended itself to CHQ's contract collapse except for management's genius move of creating a new airline. You'd think the pilots would have gotten the hint after the Freedom fiasco...but no... not Chautauqua. Now we see 190 rates below 50-seat rates. Nobody to blame but themselves, and they don't seem to care, as long as bigger, newer planes come.

Possibly the dumbest assertion ever posted. O.K. Mr. Master of our Industry.... Just what does one do to prevent such a tactic ??? Please fill us all in because this would be valuable information. Last time I checked any airline can go out and try to get another certificate. No union is going to be able to prevent this.

I think that you need to grow up just a bit, taste a bit of the real world, and get back to me in about 5 more years after you start developing some of your own thoughts on these matters. You seemed pretty programmed with this type of garbage. If ANYONE has failed us all in this race to the bottom I would invite you to focus all of this anger at the mainline unions for giving the regionals jets to fly in the first place... I'm guessing you work for Comair and if you do you really should keep your mouth shut. Didn't you guys just vote in a concessions for jets package ???

I hope your username doesn't indicate you are a Purdue grad ...

 

[puttin4doh]

What did CHQ do to prevent the Republic threat? Nothing. They waited until the threat materialized, and then, when it was too late, they dealt with it and said there was nothing they could do. This is how they allowed it to happen.



This is the most uselessly vague language I've seen in awhile

"The problem is, they didn't deal with the situation when the situation needed to be dealt with. So, when they needed the deal, they had a situation and couldn't situate. Had they dealt with the deal earlier....situationally the deal could have been materialized." - Hi, I like to type words..word after wordy word

It's alright, though...he's training to be a cage fighter

 

[jumppilot]

(except maybe the magical "fast upgrade" illusion).

It isn't an illusion. Some people in 170 upgrade class have only been here 16 months...And that is just straight seniority, no J4J or anything like that.

 

[bvt1151]

Isn't this the way this board works? They can't refute your claims so they just call it stupid. And don't dare use a vocabulary... that would be horrible.


Crawl out of your protected world where everyone tells you that its not your fault and realize that there's noone to blame but yourself. You were forced to sign that contract because you didn't have the foresite to prevent it.

Comair's pay freeze was the fault of the Comair pilots not negotiating rolling furlough protection in their last contract. Anyone who tells you the contrary is denying the truth. I don't think you'll hear anyone arguing that Comair should have been able to get more out of their last contract, but they now have rolling furlough protection as a reactive measure to the strong threats that Comair would be dismantled. Do you understand how significant it is to guarantee the jobs of pilots who aren't even here yet? All this at apparently a very minimal cost to the Comair pilots, since they still have higher 50-seat pay than CHQ 90-seat pay.

But CHQ's largely substandard contract has absolutely nothing to do with Comair's pay freeze. It came years before the pay freeze, and logic actually lends evidence to the opposite. Rather, CHQ had nothing but higher contracts to build from, and they were trumped by management's hand because they failed to see it coming. The CHQ pilots got outplayed by management, plain and simple. Don't try to justify your shortcomings by saying you had no choice, or by publishing only Captain's rates. Chautauqua's contract is not up to standard because Chautauqua pilots failed to force one.

 

[BoilerUP]

Rather, CHQ had nothing but higher contracts to build from, and they were trumped by management's hand because they failed to see it coming. The CHQ pilots got outplayed by management, plain and simple.

Don't forget to mention Comair's contract was negotiated pre-9/11 while Chautauqua's was two years after. Spare us the "that shouldn't have had any effect" speech, because this board has heard that before.

I have one question - did YOU see "it" coming? If so, and you are so concerned and affected by all that has gone on, why did you sit idly by and not tell the oblivions at CHQ who failed to see what you seem to find so obvious? Isn't hindsight a lovely thing?

 

[I.P. Freley]

bvt, since you are the all-knowing arbiter of pilot group behavior...

What WERE the CHQ pilots supposed to do to "prevent" the company from starting another certificate? Short of hiring hit men to eliminate all of upper management? Gas everyone at HQ, maybe?

Seems to me they did exactly what they could, which is prevent any flying done for the entire RAH empire from being flown by anyone that is not on THEIR seniority list... Thus preventing the possibility of a b-scale or another list for whipsaw purposes.

Please illuminate us to the PROPER way they should've handled the situation. Since you are so critical of what they did, tell us the bvt way.

 

[bvt1151]

Don't forget to mention Comair's contract was negotiated pre-9/11 while Chautauqua's was two years after.

This is not a valid argument, especially since CHQ never even lost a penny through it all. The effects of 9/11 as they pertain to pilot contracts are purely economical. CHQ did not experience the economical effects of 9/11 mainly due to their contract flying arrangements.

I have one question - did YOU see "it" coming? If so, and you are so concerned and affected by all that has gone on, why did you sit idly by and not tell the oblivions at CHQ who failed to see what you seem to find so obvious? Isn't hindsight a lovely thing?

Very valid point. In fact, I'll even take it a step further and say that I did not see Comair's pay freeze coming at the signing of the last Comair contract (where we would have last had the ability to prevent such a freeze). But not seeing and preventing Comair's future issues are the fault of the Comair pilots, just as not seeing and preventing CHQ's future issues are the fault of the CHQ pilots.

What WERE the CHQ pilots supposed to do to "prevent" the company from starting another certificate? Short of hiring hit men to eliminate all of upper management? Gas everyone at HQ, maybe?

It only took you two more sentences to answer your own question.

Seems to me they did exactly what they could, which is prevent any flying done for the entire RAH empire from being flown by anyone that is not on THEIR seniority list... Thus preventing the possibility of a b-scale or another list for whipsaw purposes.

In fact you list the very thing that should have been done, years ago. Could you have seen it? yes. Should you? perhaps. Did I? No, Not when you signed your last contract, but it still does not change the fact that your substandard contract is the fault of no other pilot group than CHQ.

Perhaps you think I'm blaming the problems at Comair on the CHQ pilots? You didn't make it any easier on us, but ultimitely the problems at Comair are due to Comair pilots lack of adequate prevention. The same applies to CHQ.

 

[h25b]

Isn't this the way this board works? They can't refute your claims so they just call it stupid. And don't dare use a vocabulary... that would be horrible.


Crawl out of your protected world where everyone tells you that its not your fault and realize that there's noone to blame but yourself. You were forced to sign that contract because you didn't have the foresite to prevent it.

Comair's pay freeze was the fault of the Comair pilots not negotiating rolling furlough protection in their last contract. Anyone who tells you the contrary is denying the truth. I don't think you'll hear anyone arguing that Comair should have been able to get more out of their last contract, but they now have rolling furlough protection as a reactive measure to the strong threats that Comair would be dismantled. Do you understand how significant it is to guarantee the jobs of pilots who aren't even here yet? All this at apparently a very minimal cost to the Comair pilots, since they still have higher 50-seat pay than CHQ 90-seat pay.

But CHQ's largely substandard contract has absolutely nothing to do with Comair's pay freeze. It came years before the pay freeze, and logic actually lends evidence to the opposite. Rather, CHQ had nothing but higher contracts to build from, and they were trumped by management's hand because they failed to see it coming. The CHQ pilots got outplayed by management, plain and simple. Don't try to justify your shortcomings by saying you had no choice, or by publishing only Captain's rates. Chautauqua's contract is not up to standard because Chautauqua pilots failed to force one.

For God's sake man, answer my question !!! We're all waiting. How do you prevent an airline from doing what CHQ did with Republic. If you don't want your claims termed stupid than back them up. Come on young one, please tell us all how this works, we're waiting... Tell us what the CHQ guys/gals should've done to prevent this.

Biggest bunch of self-righteous B.S. I've seen posted on this board to date. Fitting coming from a Comair hypocrit.

 

[I.P. Freley]

In fact you list the very thing that should have been done, years ago. Could you have seen it? yes. Should you? perhaps. Did I? No, Not when you signed your last contract, but it still does not change the fact that your substandard contract is the fault of no other pilot group than CHQ.

You can stow the "you" and "your contract" when answering me because it's not "my contract" now or ever.

CHQ's contract locked out separate lists, increased their pay, improved their work rules, and there were worthwhile benefits all around. What you conveniently ignore is that they simply started from a lower level to begin with and to expect bigger gains in the midst of a recession was sheer fantasy. Why did they start from a lower level? Because only six or so years ago they were plodding along with a fleet of worn-out Saabs and a seniority list that wouldn't fill a high school auditorium... They weren't a well-established, wholly-owned juggernaut that could bring a major to its' knees, like some other companies I can think of. The bigger, better-financed, better-established companies don't generally have better contracts for no reason, you know.

I don't work for CHQ and don't really have a part of this fight, but I think the CHQ group did well considering their circumstances.

Your assertion that they should've had a "one list" provision in their contract "years ago" is pretty mysterious in light of where the company was "years ago", and they don't have the Airline Crystal Ball that prompts them to campaign for contractual items that have no bearing on present or foreseeable circumstances. You slam CHQ for not having the prescience to have such a provision prior to the last contract, yet a few posts earlier you boast:

(ComAir) now have rolling furlough protection as a reactive measure to the strong threats that Comair would be dismantled

(boldface added)

...so ComAir's group doesn't see everything coming, either.

Your point is muddy at best, pointing fingers at CHQ for not seeing the future while your own group doesn't either... Ignoring history... Claiming CHQ was unaffected by 9/11 or the recession... Loudly proclaiming half-truths (CHQ's 90-seat rates are NOT lower than ComAir's 50-seat rates, unless you pointedly use only FO rates)...

In the end you try to sound reasonable by saying that you aren't happy with ComAir's contract, either. I don't think anyone is dim enough to not notice this tactic. You sit comfortably in your glass house and don't realize that you aren't truly padding the condescending stones you're throwing.

 

[Cracker]

From a CHQ employee and fervent Local 747 follower...the company did everything perfectly legal when it came to Republic. The actions by our management were constantly being scrutinized by our union reps during the whole process. They could not stop the process because the company knew how to skirt around any restrictions, as did Mesa's management.

If the pilot group would have done any form of "self-help" refusing to fly, calling in sick, etc. to try to prevent Republic, the union would have been heavily fined. Score one for the pilots! Anyone with any knowledge on union preoceedings is aware of this.

So...the union and pilot group did what they legally could...demand a master seniority list preventing any undercutting of the pilot group by management. And if you have ever sat in on labor contract negotiations, it isn't as easy as that. Tit for Tat...if you can't agree then it goes to arbitration...yadda yadda yadda.

So, please enlighten us on how we could have "legally" stopped this from happening. All sarcasm aside, I honestly want to know to help prevent this from happening in the future. Leave all hatred out and give us a cut and dry answer.

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Ultimately H25B is correct.

ALPA allowed the regional jets to be farmed out.

There should NEVER have been anything bigger than a Dash 8 (and i'd argue even THAT) that should have been outsourced.

If the airplane says US Airways on the side -- should be flown by pilots on the US Airways seniority list.

If the airplane says Delta on the side -- should be flown by pilots on the Delta seniority list.

etc...

ALPA is solely to blame for the destruction of the air line pilot profession. As a result we are left with lower-middle class garbage jobs for garbage companies who (due to competition) are unwilling to provide good benefits or meaningful retirement.

Today, LCCs like Jetblue, Frontier -- and low-end operators like Kalitta, Polar, Atlas, etc. cause so much downward pressure on salaries that there is no upside potential.

We've successfully made ourselves into low paid bus drivers. I just hope somebody gets the word out to the flight schools.

The only thing that will save this profession now is a real, honest to goodness, Kit Darby style "pilot shortage".

 

[jumppilot]

You just wrote the best post I have ever seen on Flightinfo.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

ALPA allowed the regional jets to be farmed out.

There should NEVER have been anything bigger than a Dash 8 (and i'd argue even THAT) that should have been outsourced.

If the airplane says US Airways on the side -- should be flown by pilots on the US Airways seniority list.

If the airplane says Delta on the side -- should be flown by pilots on the Delta seniority list.

etc...

ALPA is solely to blame for the destruction of the air line pilot profession. As a result we are left with lower-middle class garbage jobs for garbage companies who (due to competition) are unwilling to provide good benefits or meaningful retirement.

ALPA "solely?" What about the APA and the IACP (prior to CAL pilots going ALPA...they were independent)? Should they have not be accused with blame as well since AA and CAL have a veritable armada of RJ's?

-Neal

 

[jimcav]

The origional poster of this thread said he would not allow these guys on his js. I did not see ATP in his credentials which leads me to believe that he is an fo. Isn't it the CAPTS call as to whether or not somebody rides the js?

 

[h25b]

ALPA "solely?" What about the APA and the IACP (prior to CAL pilots going ALPA...they were independent)? Should they have not be accused with blame as well since AA and CAL have a veritable armada of RJ's?

-Neal

You are correct that they are at least all partially responsible, but I believe ALPA got the ball started with Comair ...

 

[bvt1151]

For God's sake man, answer my question !!! We're all waiting. How do you prevent an airline from doing what CHQ did with Republic.

Perhaps you should read my post before you reply to it. You look awfully silly asking a question that was answered already.

...so ComAir's group doesn't see everything coming, either.

Your point is muddy at best, pointing fingers at CHQ for not seeing the future while your own group doesn't either... Ignoring history... Claiming CHQ was unaffected by 9/11 or the recession... Loudly proclaiming half-truths (CHQ's 90-seat rates are NOT lower than ComAir's 50-seat rates, unless you pointedly use only FO rates)...

Doesn't anyone read posts before they reply anymore?

CHQ's 90 seat rates for pilots are lower than Comair's 50-seat rates. You may have forgotten that it requires both a Captain and an FO to fly aircraft, and therefore both pay rates are included in my analysis. Let me be clear, (since you apparently don't have the patience to go back and read a thread before you reply) CHQ will pay less for pilots flying the 190 at identical seniority than Comair pays for 50-seat pilots. Thats CA's + FO's. This forces people to look at the whole story, rather than hiding behind only the Captain's rates.


Assuming you won't read the above, hopefully you'll read single lines...

Answer this, if CHQ's substandard contract was not the fault of the CHQ pilots, then whose fault was it?

The whole point I'm trying to make is that the CHQ pilots need to take responsibility for their own actions. Nobody but CHQ pilots were responsible for signing that contract, and to say you had no choice is a cop-out. If you were left with no choice, then you failed to prevent being backed into a corner. Regardless of what was going on six years prior, the CHQ pilots failed to plan six years ahead. Nobody's fault but your own.

Now you're going to fly 90-seat aircraft for less than other carriers fly 50-seat aircraft, and you think its because you had no choice? Open your eyes to the plain and simple fact that your contract is little (if any) improvement over Mesa's. Not even the Skywest pilots will fly 90-seaters for less than 50-seat pay, and they're non-union!

But you had no choice.