No more bashing other airlines - Comair

[acarpe3448]

Um, I give up. How?

I guess since Delta wasn't mentioned in this thread and really has nothing to do with this thread, I didn't feel obligated to mention the plight of the Delta pilot. Feel free to educate us.

You know, the Earth doesn't revolve around Delta airplanes, despite what they tell you in ground school.

Delta pilots went through all of the same hoops that the Comair pilots did! We had our strike vote! We had our strike center! We posted the threat everywhere, we walked informational picketing etc. etc.. but Comair pilots claimed that Delta pilots caved! Now the tone of this response was that in Comair's case, they had so much working against them that even though they faught harder than any other pilot group, that they were still the heros of the regional world! My point is, that as I said before Comair will cave also! Comair will bend over to get bigger aircraft, more aircraft etc. etc. It's in their nature! All we have seen in the end is that Comair pilots are no stronger than other group! If they quit the name calling and the dumb actions such as the senority grab, no job without giving up the senority # to furloughs, the RJDC, etc. etc. maybe they would look a little better! Thats all it meant!

 

[hyperboy]

comair now realizes

An adult would know that Comair now has had the chance to negotiate post 9/11. It would have been worse for ALL of Comair, I assure you if MESA would not have taken it in the $hitter as the first post 9/11 contract. Glad to help out a union brother....no hard feelings huh?! Your welcome!

 

[IronCityBlue]

PFT discussion points

An older adult would know that Comair lowered the bar initially by requiring pay for training...

Mookie

No doubt PFT was a slam to the profession. Its wo(e)rth noting though that many other airlines (mostly "regionals", but some "nationals", etc.) were PFT before, during and after Comair's tenure with the nefarious practice. At most airlines I can think of that had, and later recinded PFT, the retraction was inniated by management in reaction to market forces, not pilot solidarity.

Also, unless its specifically prohibited by an airline's contract or policy, PFT is management's perogative. So if your airline doesn't require PFT it probably has more to do with regionals scrambeling to put butts in seats far more than it has anything to do with pilot solidarity or bar raising. In most cases, management can bring back PFT at their leisure and there's nothing most pilot groups can do to prevent it.

Also, as disgusting as PFT was for the industry, how can we honestly say its any worse than training contracts or concessons for portfolio growth/competitive bidding?

 

[Bako Cap]

No doubt PFT was a slam to the profession. Its wo(e)rth noting though that many other airlines (mostly "regionals", but some "nationals", etc.) were PFT before, during and after Comair's tenure with the nefarious practice. At most airlines I can think of that had, and later recinded PFT, the retraction was inniated by management in reaction to market forces, not pilot solidarity.

Also, unless its specifically prohibited by an airline's contract or policy, PFT is management's perogative. So if your airline doesn't require PFT it probably has more to do with regionals scrambeling to put butts in seats far more than it has anything to do with pilot solidarity or bar raising. In most cases, management can bring back PFT at their leisure and there's nothing most pilot groups can do to prevent it.

Also, as disgusting as PFT was for the industry, how can we honestly say its any worse than training contracts or concessons for portfolio growth/competitive bidding?

It's not that the companies wanted PFT, it's the $#!+ head pilots who paid for the jobs. If the Comair pilot wantabies would have refused to pay, there would not have been any PFT due to market forces.

 

[IronCityBlue]

PFT rehash

It's not that the companies wanted PFT, it's the $#!+ head pilots who paid for the jobs. If the Comair pilots wantabies would have refused to pay, there would not have been any PFT due to market forces.

I agree that PFT'ing should be avoided on principal. But the same can be said about ASA, Express1 (Pinnacle) and numerous others at the time. Also, should pilots be signing training contracts? Concessions and/or predatory contracts during periods of extreme profitability for the purpose of winning RFP's and/or bringing larger equipment to their list for less pay? So called blended rates for FO's (which is really just code word for "lowest rate applies to all")? Should pilot groups literally be selling more and more flying of bigger and bigger equipment to management to outsource to the lowest bidder, knowing that will be used against them later, so they can get a one time "bargaining credit" for their own contracts?

I'm no PFT expert (not only never PFT'd, but specifically excluded PFT airlines at every opportunity) so I don't claim to know for a fact what airline invented the concept or when, but whoever it was, whenever it was, many others piled on for years.

Let's say for the sake of arguement that Comair singlehandedly invented the concept; fine, that may be the case, I don't know. But to say its anything other than an extremely minor contributor (who'se practice has been largely, if not completely discontinued) is an exageration. To say PFT was instrumental in the downfall of the profession just discredits by association any other valid points that may follow.

 

[samballs]

Doesn't MESA make you pay to interview?

 

[Boris Badenov]

For people who care about their futures so much, you sure do treat this like a sports team rivalry. Who cares what "Comair Pilots" did in 1995? The vast majority of the people who were there then aren't now. More to the point, the notion that different airlines are made up of different "type" or "levels of standup" guys is ludicrous. Expect other pilots not to cross picket lines. You've that right as a unionized workforce. Other than that, I've 0 interest in what you think I "should" do in order to protect your paycheck.

If you want to improve the profession (hah), don't work for less than $100/hour. That'll show em.

 

[doh]

thank you wilofsteel...post 9/11 it's a whole different ballgame...

A whole different ballgame? So the industry is no longer cyclical? Oh wait, now the cycle is on the upswing and airlines are making money again. Nope, not a single change, still cyclical and still pi$$ poor management at all levels. Please stop drinking the Koolaid and grow a pair.

 

[doh]

Delta pilots went through all of the same hoops that the Comair pilots did! We had our strike vote! We had our strike center! We posted the threat everywhere, we walked informational picketing etc. etc.. but Comair pilots claimed that Delta pilots caved! Now the tone of this response was that in Comair's case, they had so much working against them that even though they faught harder than any other pilot group, that they were still the heros of the regional world! My point is, that as I said before Comair will cave also! Comair will bend over to get bigger aircraft, more aircraft etc. etc. It's in their nature! All we have seen in the end is that Comair pilots are no stronger than other group! If they quit the name calling and the dumb actions such as the senority grab, no job without giving up the senority # to furloughs, the RJDC, etc. etc. maybe they would look a little better! Thats all it meant!

And if you doosch bags had stopped management from outsourcing your jobs in the first place, maybe you would look a little better. But you couldn't wait to be management's tools. You are the root problem, going back to the begining of dereg. Let's never forget that you original mistakes caused this whole mess. The former ALPA president that presided over the outsourcing has said it was a huge mistake. So let's just keep in mind who did this, and stop blaming the CMR folks for what you did!

 

[wmuflyguy]

I'm just starting to read the TA now, but on our internal web board, some one was mentioning that the whole thing will be invalid if we get sold. Methinks this whole arguement will be moot, anyway.

Not True, the only thing voided is the growth commitment. All other parts including the fleet requirements remain in place.

 

[flylike44]

that's a good one doh! telling me to grow a pair and calling someone else a "doosch bag"...very mature lil' fella...in case you hadn't noticed, the subject of this thread deals with one pilot group bashing another for a certain reason, and then turning around and doing the same thing...you have made some very valid points, albeit off topic points, but the sophomoric name calling and chest thumping leave you devoid of all credibility...the comair pilots went on strike--and i admire them for doing so...but it was in a different environment industry wise and if you choose to ignore that fact then so be it...while you're ignoring facts and bored, why don't you purchase a thesaurus and come up with some new buzz words? koolaid, outsourcing, management tool, alpa sucks, etc...they're all so tired...for the sake of the board find something new to say...

 

[DrewBlows]

Delta pilots went through all of the same hoops that the Comair pilots did! We had our strike vote! We had our strike center! We posted the threat everywhere, we walked informational picketing etc. etc.. but Comair pilots claimed that Delta pilots caved!

Congratulations... I guess. I still don't see what Delta pilot's have to do with this thread, or why you you felt obligated to respond to my post, as this Comair pilot has never claimed Delta pilots caved and doesn't represent anyone other than himself (if you didn't catch it the first time, I slipped seamlessly from first to third person mid-sentance, no small feat).

Now the tone of this response was that in Comair's case, they had so much working against them that even though they faught harder than any other pilot group, that they were still the heros of the regional world!

Well, thank you for interpreting the tone of my post. It was completely wrong, but it helps me understand why you thought I was dissing Delta pilots. My original post was a sarcastic response to the original post which completely left out the fact that Comair ALPA was rendered powerless by bankruptcy law and implied that Comair pilot's were happy to give their money away.

My point is, that as I said before Comair will cave also! Comair will bend over to get bigger aircraft, more aircraft etc. etc. It's in their nature!

Now you are implying that Comair pilot's are happy to give away their money. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not happpy to give anything away. Now, if you had invoked the 2005 LOA, which had the intention of growth for concessions, you might have an argument. I can't offer an opinion on that, other than it was a dumb idea, since I wasn't at Comair at the time.

All we have seen in the end is that Comair pilots are no stronger than other group! If they quit the name calling and the dumb actions such as the senority grab, no job without giving up the senority # to furloughs, the RJDC, etc. etc. maybe they would look a little better! Thats all it meant!

Name calling? I have no idea what you are talking about.

Seniority grab? I suspect you are talking about the 2000 PID, which was seven years ago now and they have quit doing.

New hires giving up their seniority number? Comair ALPA made a formal statement against this practice. There are, or have been, Delta pilots on Comair's seniority list. Again this is behavior that has "quit".

RJDC? Are you really concerned about this? My understanding (from listening to Dan Ford talk about it) is that the case is currently in the "disclosure" phase (I could be mistaken about the exact phase, because I'm not a law expert, but it's in a phase before trial) and if the judge doesn't allow it to go to trial (likely), it will die.


I guess I really don't see what your problem with all Comair pilots is. I clearly don't have any bias against Delta pilots (hell, I'd even like to be one), yet you assumed that my original post was some slight against Delta pilots. I'd suggest that your greivance's (real or imagined) against some Comair pilots is misguided and far reaching. Perhaps you should hold criticism until you actually hear something derogitory against you or your Delta brothers.

 

[XJohXJ]

Doesn't MESA make you pay to interview?

Yes, they do. Mesa charges $50 per "candidate" to interview. What a sh!tty company.

 

[doh]

that's a good one doh! telling me to grow a pair and calling someone else a "doosch bag"...very mature lil' fella...in case you hadn't noticed, the subject of this thread deals with one pilot group bashing another for a certain reason, and then turning around and doing the same thing...you have made some very valid points, albeit off topic points, but the sophomoric name calling and chest thumping leave you devoid of all credibility...the comair pilots went on strike--and i admire them for doing so...but it was in a different environment industry wise and if you choose to ignore that fact then so be it...while you're ignoring facts and bored, why don't you purchase a thesaurus and come up with some new buzz words? koolaid, outsourcing, management tool, alpa sucks, etc...they're all so tired...for the sake of the board find something new to say...

The only difference in the environment was the attitude of the pilot group. The industry is and always will be cyclical. Management needs to take a longer term strategy and plan for some down turn time. If you as a pilot group allow them to compensate you less every time they fail to manage, then you need to grow a pair. This is not off topic, it speaks to the very statement you made. As for what I said, and say every time a$$carpe posts something stupid, ill informed, and/or just plain derogatory about the Comair pilot group, he is an a$$. Read what he posts, and you will see that our hatred is mutual. I will not apologise for my comments to or about him (or maybe her).

 

[flylike44]

not asking you to apologize...you know what you're talking about--no doubt about that...i agree with you on every point you made...your comments are, however, off topic as far as the title of the thread is concerned...you seem to have a firm grasp on the state of the industry...my point is that your frustration should be directed in a positive direction...instead of calling people names, channel that energy into educating the newbies in your pilot group (or the salty veterans that need a kick in the backside)...your passion for bettering the sorry state of the industry on OUR level is a huge asset...that passion is wasted haranguing people on FI every time you feel that you've been slighted...all i said was that the post 9/11 environment was different from the pre 9/11 environment...pick your battles...

 

[acarpe3448]

And if you doosch bags had stopped management from outsourcing your jobs in the first place, maybe you would look a little better. But you couldn't wait to be management's tools. You are the root problem, going back to the begining of dereg. Let's never forget that you original mistakes caused this whole mess. The former ALPA president that presided over the outsourcing has said it was a huge mistake. So let's just keep in mind who did this, and stop blaming the CMR folks for what you did!

No doosch bag! The answer is get rid of you commuter pilots! Give all the flying back to the major airlines! You all are so blind to what the real problem is! Comair pilots suck! All others are ok in my book!

 

[acarpe3448]

The only difference in the environment was the attitude of the pilot group. The industry is and always will be cyclical. Management needs to take a longer term strategy and plan for some down turn time. If you as a pilot group allow them to compensate you less every time they fail to manage, then you need to grow a pair. This is not off topic, it speaks to the very statement you made. As for what I said, and say every time a$$carpe posts something stupid, ill informed, and/or just plain derogatory about the Comair pilot group, he is an a$$. Read what he posts, and you will see that our hatred is mutual. I will not apologise for my comments to or about him (or maybe her).

You can't understand why I would be a little upset about the Comair pilot group? May I suggest you go back to 9/10/01 and review history up to this point!

 

[dooork]

No doosch bag! The answer is get rid of you commuter pilots! Give all the flying back to the major airlines! You all are so blind to what the real problem is! Comair pilots suck! All others are ok in my book!

You are correct. The answer is to get rid of all contract flying.
To the post you responded to: I believe it started with Allegheny contracting Mohawk to do some of its flying in and out of Boston...and that was in the 1950s.

 

[doh]

No doosch bag! The answer is get rid of you commuter pilots! Give all the flying back to the major airlines! You all are so blind to what the real problem is! Comair pilots suck! All others are ok in my book!

That is exactly my point, you a$$ munch! You control the scope and you allow the outsourcing! You have always allowed the outsourcing, so you are the root problem! If you had the collective will, you would not allow your management to have feeder airlines. This whole mess is directly YOUR FAULT! That is why you are a doosch bag, you whine about commuter pilots when you, and only you, have the control of scope to have all Delta flying done by Delta pilots.:uzi:

 

[AvJunke]

No doosch bag! The answer is get rid of you commuter pilots! Give all the flying back to the major airlines! You all are so blind to what the real problem is! Comair pilots suck! All others are ok in my book!

Classy!! I'll sleep better knowing that all pilots (other than Comair's) are okay in your book.