No more bashing other airlines - Comair

[FishandFly]

This idiot must be some adults 13 year old kid who got daddies password and decided to get on here and have some fun.
An informed pilot who knows ANYTHING about the industry would never get on here and make such an idiotic statement.

An ADULT would know the Comair pilots put EVERY THING on the line back in 2001 to raise the bar.
An ADULT would know that after the Comair pilots raised the bar, the mesa, chawawa, and skywhore pilots slid right under it like slimmy slugs and gave mgt. the hammer they needed.
An ADULT would know that THE MESA, CHAWAWA, AND SKYHO pilot agreements set the market rates well below what the Comair pilots had set them.
An ADULT would know a little about the BK laws and 1113c rulings.

So kid, go drink some milk and have a cookie and GET OFF THIS WEB BOARD. IT IS FOR ADULTS ONLY!

If he's 13 he's old enough to remember when ASA and Comair were both owned by Big D, and when in the middle of ASA contract negotiations the Comair group agreed to lower wages in the hope that Big D would grant them a mystery jet called the E170. The 13 year old may even still have the "Comair pilots support ASA contract negotiations" sticker on his bmx bike.

 

[Occam's Razor]

At the decision point, it doesn't matter whether this is pre- or post-9/11. It doesn't matter if the Comair pilots are studs or not (they are!), or even if Delta is manufacturing the conflict at CMR as part of a long-term strategy to hammer the DCI carriers.

All that matters for the voting members at CMR is whether or not they think the TA is better than the alternative.

There won't be a balloting option of, "Really Angry!" or "Defending The Profession For My ASA Brothers!". The choices will consist of YES or NO.

Period.

YES will mean you believe:

1. The terms are better than would result from further action in court.
2. The pilot group is sufficiently divided to achieve a singular goal through alternative means. (I call it the "NWA Meets Hobson" scenario)

NO will mean you believe:

1. There is a reasonable chance you will improve the terms following a rejected TA.
2. You have a personal alternative that makes you less risk-sensitive. (I call it the "Meet my wife...the Doctor" scenario)

 

[ToiletDuck]

Yeah, those evil Comair pilot's fabricated Delta's bankruptcy, 14 months of negotiations, and an 1113(c) ruling against them just so they can take concessions and get growth! Screw those guys for thinking only of themselves when they blatently lost, in court time and time again, on purpose!

Don't forget the three month strike.

 

[DrewBlows]

How is this any different than Delta pilot's experience in BK?

Um, I give up. How?

I guess since Delta wasn't mentioned in this thread and really has nothing to do with this thread, I didn't feel obligated to mention the plight of the Delta pilot. Feel free to educate us.

You know, the Earth doesn't revolve around Delta airplanes, despite what they tell you in ground school.

 

[captainv]

I'm just starting to read the TA now, but on our internal web board, some one was mentioning that the whole thing will be invalid if we get sold. Methinks this whole arguement will be moot, anyway.

I'm sure if we vote to approve this thing, we'll get slammed for caving.

If we don't, mangement gets to impose a contract, and we aren't allowed to strike.

either way, we won't be allowed to negotiate someting better for years.

I'll wait for the road show to finalize my opinion, but how is this not lose/lose?

 

[acarpe3448]

Um, I give up. How?

I guess since Delta wasn't mentioned in this thread and really has nothing to do with this thread, I didn't feel obligated to mention the plight of the Delta pilot. Feel free to educate us.

You know, the Earth doesn't revolve around Delta airplanes, despite what they tell you in ground school.

Delta pilots went through all of the same hoops that the Comair pilots did! We had our strike vote! We had our strike center! We posted the threat everywhere, we walked informational picketing etc. etc.. but Comair pilots claimed that Delta pilots caved! Now the tone of this response was that in Comair's case, they had so much working against them that even though they faught harder than any other pilot group, that they were still the heros of the regional world! My point is, that as I said before Comair will cave also! Comair will bend over to get bigger aircraft, more aircraft etc. etc. It's in their nature! All we have seen in the end is that Comair pilots are no stronger than other group! If they quit the name calling and the dumb actions such as the senority grab, no job without giving up the senority # to furloughs, the RJDC, etc. etc. maybe they would look a little better! Thats all it meant!

 

[hyperboy]

comair now realizes

An adult would know that Comair now has had the chance to negotiate post 9/11. It would have been worse for ALL of Comair, I assure you if MESA would not have taken it in the $hitter as the first post 9/11 contract. Glad to help out a union brother....no hard feelings huh?! Your welcome!

 

[IronCityBlue]

PFT discussion points

An older adult would know that Comair lowered the bar initially by requiring pay for training...

Mookie

No doubt PFT was a slam to the profession. Its wo(e)rth noting though that many other airlines (mostly "regionals", but some "nationals", etc.) were PFT before, during and after Comair's tenure with the nefarious practice. At most airlines I can think of that had, and later recinded PFT, the retraction was inniated by management in reaction to market forces, not pilot solidarity.

Also, unless its specifically prohibited by an airline's contract or policy, PFT is management's perogative. So if your airline doesn't require PFT it probably has more to do with regionals scrambeling to put butts in seats far more than it has anything to do with pilot solidarity or bar raising. In most cases, management can bring back PFT at their leisure and there's nothing most pilot groups can do to prevent it.

Also, as disgusting as PFT was for the industry, how can we honestly say its any worse than training contracts or concessons for portfolio growth/competitive bidding?

 

[Bako Cap]

No doubt PFT was a slam to the profession. Its wo(e)rth noting though that many other airlines (mostly "regionals", but some "nationals", etc.) were PFT before, during and after Comair's tenure with the nefarious practice. At most airlines I can think of that had, and later recinded PFT, the retraction was inniated by management in reaction to market forces, not pilot solidarity.

Also, unless its specifically prohibited by an airline's contract or policy, PFT is management's perogative. So if your airline doesn't require PFT it probably has more to do with regionals scrambeling to put butts in seats far more than it has anything to do with pilot solidarity or bar raising. In most cases, management can bring back PFT at their leisure and there's nothing most pilot groups can do to prevent it.

Also, as disgusting as PFT was for the industry, how can we honestly say its any worse than training contracts or concessons for portfolio growth/competitive bidding?

It's not that the companies wanted PFT, it's the $#!+ head pilots who paid for the jobs. If the Comair pilot wantabies would have refused to pay, there would not have been any PFT due to market forces.

 

[IronCityBlue]

PFT rehash

It's not that the companies wanted PFT, it's the $#!+ head pilots who paid for the jobs. If the Comair pilots wantabies would have refused to pay, there would not have been any PFT due to market forces.

I agree that PFT'ing should be avoided on principal. But the same can be said about ASA, Express1 (Pinnacle) and numerous others at the time. Also, should pilots be signing training contracts? Concessions and/or predatory contracts during periods of extreme profitability for the purpose of winning RFP's and/or bringing larger equipment to their list for less pay? So called blended rates for FO's (which is really just code word for "lowest rate applies to all")? Should pilot groups literally be selling more and more flying of bigger and bigger equipment to management to outsource to the lowest bidder, knowing that will be used against them later, so they can get a one time "bargaining credit" for their own contracts?

I'm no PFT expert (not only never PFT'd, but specifically excluded PFT airlines at every opportunity) so I don't claim to know for a fact what airline invented the concept or when, but whoever it was, whenever it was, many others piled on for years.

Let's say for the sake of arguement that Comair singlehandedly invented the concept; fine, that may be the case, I don't know. But to say its anything other than an extremely minor contributor (who'se practice has been largely, if not completely discontinued) is an exageration. To say PFT was instrumental in the downfall of the profession just discredits by association any other valid points that may follow.

 

[samballs]

Doesn't MESA make you pay to interview?

 

[Boris Badenov]

For people who care about their futures so much, you sure do treat this like a sports team rivalry. Who cares what "Comair Pilots" did in 1995? The vast majority of the people who were there then aren't now. More to the point, the notion that different airlines are made up of different "type" or "levels of standup" guys is ludicrous. Expect other pilots not to cross picket lines. You've that right as a unionized workforce. Other than that, I've 0 interest in what you think I "should" do in order to protect your paycheck.

If you want to improve the profession (hah), don't work for less than $100/hour. That'll show em.

 

[doh]

thank you wilofsteel...post 9/11 it's a whole different ballgame...

A whole different ballgame? So the industry is no longer cyclical? Oh wait, now the cycle is on the upswing and airlines are making money again. Nope, not a single change, still cyclical and still pi$$ poor management at all levels. Please stop drinking the Koolaid and grow a pair.

 

[doh]

Delta pilots went through all of the same hoops that the Comair pilots did! We had our strike vote! We had our strike center! We posted the threat everywhere, we walked informational picketing etc. etc.. but Comair pilots claimed that Delta pilots caved! Now the tone of this response was that in Comair's case, they had so much working against them that even though they faught harder than any other pilot group, that they were still the heros of the regional world! My point is, that as I said before Comair will cave also! Comair will bend over to get bigger aircraft, more aircraft etc. etc. It's in their nature! All we have seen in the end is that Comair pilots are no stronger than other group! If they quit the name calling and the dumb actions such as the senority grab, no job without giving up the senority # to furloughs, the RJDC, etc. etc. maybe they would look a little better! Thats all it meant!

And if you doosch bags had stopped management from outsourcing your jobs in the first place, maybe you would look a little better. But you couldn't wait to be management's tools. You are the root problem, going back to the begining of dereg. Let's never forget that you original mistakes caused this whole mess. The former ALPA president that presided over the outsourcing has said it was a huge mistake. So let's just keep in mind who did this, and stop blaming the CMR folks for what you did!

 

[wmuflyguy]

I'm just starting to read the TA now, but on our internal web board, some one was mentioning that the whole thing will be invalid if we get sold. Methinks this whole arguement will be moot, anyway.

Not True, the only thing voided is the growth commitment. All other parts including the fleet requirements remain in place.