No More ASA

[cessnamann]

SKW has almost $1bn in cash. All of these other regional airlines that ASA has to compete with, for the 2nd lowest cost structure, have nothing even close to that. I wouldn't be surprised to see SKW purchase Mesa in the near future.

 

[sweptback]

Thank you. Finally someone with some honor. You, sir, realize that if you aren't happy, you should leave.

Thank you for having integrity.

Well, let's be honest here. That's what we are "supposed" to do.

We all know regionals are only cheap if the pilots don't stay long. Once you hit year $106/hr you're making close to what a 737 captain makes, but you're generating a lot less revenue. Pinnacle has historically been a pretty lousy place to work, and therefore most guys bail out to greener grass. However, it keeps their costs down, and allows them to expand.

Fortunately, ASA has always been a pretty decent place to work, and more and more people are planning on staying here until they turn 65. Unfortunately, that -- not any gains we make in our contract -- will kill us. We could work for sub-Mesa pay, but if the bulk of our pilot group is year 12+ then we are dead. (Furloughing, by the way, won't help us with our costs.)

All the Pinnacle pilots will do by voting in their contract will be to reinforce that it's not a career airline, and pilots will continue to leave there at the first opportunity. That in turn keeps their costs down, and they will continue to grow... until one day they finally stand up for themselves and demand a decent contract. Then, just like ASA, their pilot group will get more and more senior.

Say ASA did the same thing in our next contract, for the sake of argument. If we signed off on a raw deal under the guise that it will make us cheap so we can grow, it still wouldn't do anything. We have too senior of a pilot group for it to matter.

Look at Comair -- they took huge paycuts, gave back all their trophy contract gains, and they're still getting shrunk into oblivion. Payrates aren't the problem there (they're cheaper than us) but their average longevity is killer.

Longevity, my friends, is our problem. Unfortunately, there's no answer as long as our business model is to compete for fee-for-departure flying.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, let's be honest here. That's what we are "supposed" to do.

We all know regionals are only cheap if the pilots don't stay long. Once you hit year $106/hr you're making close to what a 737 captain makes, but you're generating a lot less revenue. Pinnacle has historically been a pretty lousy place to work, and therefore most guys bail out to greener grass. However, it keeps their costs down, and allows them to expand.

Fortunately, ASA has always been a pretty decent place to work, and more and more people are planning on staying here until they turn 65. Unfortunately, that -- not any gains we make in our contract -- will kill us. We could work for sub-Mesa pay, but if the bulk of our pilot group is year 12+ then we are dead. (Furloughing, by the way, won't help us with our costs.)

All the Pinnacle pilots will do by voting in their contract will be to reinforce that it's not a career airline, and pilots will continue to leave there at the first opportunity. That in turn keeps their costs down, and they will continue to grow... until one day they finally stand up for themselves and demand a decent contract. Then, just like ASA, their pilot group will get more and more senior.

Say ASA did the same thing in our next contract, for the sake of argument. If we signed off on a raw deal under the guise that it will make us cheap so we can grow, it still wouldn't do anything. We have too senior of a pilot group for it to matter.

Look at Comair -- they took huge paycuts, gave back all their trophy contract gains, and they're still getting shrunk into oblivion. Payrates aren't the problem there (they're cheaper than us) but their average longevity is killer.

Longevity, my friends, is our problem. Unfortunately, there's no answer as long as our business model is to compete for fee-for-departure flying.

So what is your answer? What is ALPA's answer?

 

[Speedtape]

So what is your answer? What is ALPA's answer?

I say it's time to blow up the T.V., throw away the paper and move to the country.

 

[Speedtape]

SKW has almost $1bn in cash. All of these other regional airlines that ASA has to compete with, for the 2nd lowest cost structure, have nothing even close to that. I wouldn't be surprised to see SKW purchase Mesa in the near future.

That will never happen. Mesa owns nothing of value.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I say it's time to blow up the T.V., throw away the paper and move to the country.

I've already thrown away the paper and moved to the country....But I'm not giving up the TV...

 

[JoeMerchant]

That will never happen. Mesa owns nothing of value.

Except some DCI contracts that Delta can't seem to get rid of....

 

[sweptback]

So what is your answer? What is ALPA's answer?

I don't have an answer. I wish I did.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't have an answer. I wish I did.

So supporting ALPA without question isn't the answer? So fighting for better pay and workrules here at ASA isn't the answer? So trusting our union to "fix" this isn't the answer?....I thought an ALPA true believer would have answers.....

How about preparing to go our own way? How about giving our management a cost structure that would allow for an independent run? How about partnering with management for now, instead of fighting them? How about doing what is necessary to protect our jobs...

Your answer isn't going to cut it for an ALPA cheerleader...That isn't a good enough answer for someone we are paying 2% of our income to....

 

[olympus593]

So what is your answer? What is ALPA's answer?

Ok so what your answer joe?

 

[olympus593]

How about giving our management a cost structure that would allow for an independent run?

joe is Lorenzo's wet dream, come true, thank you for your support in destroying the industry, hope I never have to share a cockpit with a D*ouche like you! You are a waste of a human skin.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Ok so what your answer joe?

There are 2 options...

1. We act like a real union, and negotiate a single contract that includes all of us within a brand and stops the competition within a brand for flying....Realistically that isn't going to happen...

In the absence of #1

2. We all do what is best for each pilot group....We undercut to gain flying and let the chips fall where they may....Regionals negotiate competitive rates to fly larger aircraft and mainline groups negotiate competitive rates to fly "RJs"...Every man for themself...

One or the other...Time to $hit or get off the pot....This pretend "brotherhood" is wearing thin...

 

[JoeMerchant]

joe is Lorenzo's wet dream, come true, thank you for your support in destroying the industry, hope I never have to share a cockpit with a D*ouche like you! You are a waste of a human skin.

Mainline pilots have negotiated lower rates for my flying....Do you feel the same about them? Why did they give up this flying in the first place...I don't really care if you call me names...This is business...pure and simple....You don't care about me, and I don't care about you.....

 

[cessnamann]

joe is Lorenzo's wet dream, come true, thank you for your support in destroying the industry, hope I never have to share a cockpit with a D*ouche like you! You are a waste of a human skin.

Lorenzo's wet dream is having a buch of contracted labor groups compete for the same flying. Oh wait. That's not a dream. Joe's just calling it like it is. You seem to not want to accept the reality of our industry.

 

[JoeMerchant]

lorenzo's wet dream is having a buch of contracted labor groups compete for the same flying. Oh wait. That's not a dream. Joe's just calling it like it is. You seem to not want to accept the reality of our industry.

bingo!

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Ok so what your answer joe?

His answer was real simple. Sue someone.
See how well that worked out for him?:laugh:

 

[Scope out RJ's]

There are 2 options...

1. We act like a real union, and negotiate a single contract that includes all of us within a brand and stops the competition within a brand for flying....Realistically that isn't going to happen...

In the absence of #1

2. We all do what is best for each pilot group....We undercut to gain flying and let the chips fall where they may....Regionals negotiate competitive rates to fly larger aircraft and mainline groups negotiate competitive rates to fly "RJs"...Every man for themself...

One or the other...Time to $hit or get off the pot....This pretend "brotherhood" is wearing thin...

Or option #3, sue someone. When that doesn't work, hide behind an anonomyous losername on a message board and throw stones from the comfort of your computer like the chicken ******************** you are!

 

[GeekMaster]

Realistically, for now, the BEST option for ASA is to take the approach of EFFICIENCY! We don't need to cut our paychecks individually. Instead, make adjustments that allow us to operate all of our block hours with less pilots while still paying each individual pilot their current wage. We all know that "starts" with PBS; like it or not. There are other things that would add additional cost savings without hindering quality of life.

The problem is, that if you increase efficiency that much, you are lowering the TOTAL PAYROLL. (by needing less pilots) By lowering the total payroll, you are lowering the amount of total dues paid to ALPA National. Our current leadership doesn't seem too keen on that idea. They kind of know that PBS is inevitable from their PBS workgroup. At this point, they're still trying to minimize National's revenue loss by demanding much of the savings back.

Of course all of the things that promote efficiency will create a need for less pilots. That's why THERE IS NO BETTER TIME to get this done. ASA can't furlough anymore pilots "right now". Get it done to put us in the optimum position to grow back into our staffing. In other words, don't be shortsighted. Look at the longterm health of this group. There may not be much regional industry growth on the horizon, but THERE WILL be some sideways adjustments. I don't wish bad on anyone, but IT IS going to happen. We're either going to be in a position to receive some or give some.

I hope our current leadership can get on board. I have little faith that will happen. I hope our group will make that adjustment this fall.

 

[outtahere]

How bout this, instead of selling out the guys and gals that are furloughed to save your own skin, how about you act like a man and demand change. We have a contract, quit letting them violate it. Take for example the red arrow days for September, there are 16!!! What happened to all that over staffing? You guys are letting brad, Scott, and Jerry stroke you and calm you down right before they plunge that knife in your back. Wake up!! This is not a personal relationship, they are not your friends, they are business people looking out for the good of the share holders. Like it or not they are smarter than us, that's why they are where they are, but we have a massive army of pilots that can demand accountability. Flood them with emails about why there are sixteen red arrow days, make them justify the furloughs and downgrades. I'm not just an employee, I'm also a stockholder, and I want answers. If enough of us are pestering and asking, they will either tell us the truth, or we will eventually catch them in a lie, either way we know what's going on. Also, for those of you that have noticed your QOL slipping here lately, they are exploiting every possible hole in our contract language. Why you ask? Well, we start negotiating again in May, so those of you carting around broke airplanes with out writing them up better get your pencils sharpened, because you need to be consistant when the contract is long expired. It's not time to join hands and hope management is looking out for our best interest, they aren't, they are looking out for the bottom line of Skywest Inc. If that means they have to ruin each of our lives to protect that bottom line, they will. We are all that each other has, the ASA union. Forget alpa national, it's us alone looking out for our own best interest. ALPA national just provides insurance and lawyers, not day to day support. I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone of my fellow pilots, it's just time to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[GeekMaster]

Outtahere- How bout this, instead of selling out the guys and gals that are furloughed to save your own skin, how about you act like a man and demand change.

What change, exactly, should we demand? More pay? More days Off? 3 for 1 duty rigs? 6 hour Min. Day credit? That'll secure our jobs for sure. The BEST WAY to bring our current furloughs back is to create the staffing need for them. In fact that's the ONLY way. If we make demands that increase our costs, it's pretty much the same as drinking poison ourselves and hoping our enemy will die.

Outtahere- Take for example the red arrow days for September, there are 16!!!

This IS being approached properly. It is currently in grievance and going through DUE PROCESS. Are you suggesting a "self help" approach? ......especially at a time when we are trying to market 20 "has been" airplanes by spring?

Outtahere- This is not a personal relationship, they are not your friends, they are business people looking out for the good of the share holders.

We are business people too. If we are to survive in business, we MUST adjust according to our market. I don't believe we need to sell out in the form of lower wages, but instead through efficiency.

Have you lost your passion for flying or is "burn the place down" just a natural part of your personality? Wouldn't it be better to try and make the job better?

 

[JustaNumber]

Well, we start negotiating again in May, so those of you carting around broke airplanes with out writing them up better get your pencils sharpened, because you need to be consistant when the contract is long expired.

For those who haven't heard, the local FAA is currently out for blood on this issue, so you need to write up broken airplanes for their sake.

That being said, this isn't yesterday's ASA. Things are not as bad as you fear. All Delta flying is down about 10%; ASA's flying is down about 10%. The sky is not falling. When the economy eventually rebounds and the public starts demanding more flying, we will be okay. Burning the place down is the worst thing we could do now. Relax and go get yourself a beer.

 

[ultrarunner]

Sorry to say it guys, but I believe ASA is on the way out.........................

Note to self:

Quit reading about folks worrying about stuff they have absolutely NO control over....

Ahhh....

ok, back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[outtahere]

Not one time in my post did I mention burn the place down, I don't want that. However, I do expect my company to treat me as a professional, and to follow the contract that they signed in good faith. Please don't think for a second however, that if it is more profitable for Skywest to shrink ASA and then absorb what is left over into Skywest airlines that they won't do it. We are not your run of the mill sweatshop regional, and I don't want to be, that will be our undoing though. In my opinion, I would rather ASA disappear than subject ourselves to a contract like Pinnacle or Mesa, we are all better than that.

 

[ohplease!]

Not one time in my post did I mention burn the place down, I don't want that. However, I do expect my company to treat me as a professional, and to follow the contract that they signed in good faith. Please don't think for a second however, that if it is more profitable for Skywest to shrink ASA and then absorb what is left over into Skywest airlines that they won't do it. We are not your run of the mill sweatshop regional, and I don't want to be, that will be our undoing though. In my opinion, I would rather ASA disappear than subject ourselves to a contract like Pinnacle or Mesa, we are all better than that.

maybe not but you did say you were getting out....so, shut up and leave. don't go away mad, just go away. afterall, the economy is booming and the unemployment rate is at an all new historical low and companies are walking around door-to-door offering unqualified people jobs with starting pay rates OVER $100K! man! this is the time for your move....go for it....jump in with both feet....don't worry, you'll be fine!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Who's flying around with broken airplanes? Not me.

If the plane breaks, I write it up. If it happens in ATL, I write it up. If it happens at an outstation, I write it up.

I've had guys get off a plane in ATL before and tell me about something that wasn't working quite right. When I found out they didn't notify MX about it, I put it in the logbook for them.

We have received numerous emails from the company about what is expected of us in this regard. If it is broken, write it up. Deal with outstation MX if needed, or defer the item with the help of MX Control and your DX. It's pretty straight forward. You are the PIC, and thus have a responsibility to your passengers and your crew to make sure they are flying on a safe airplane.

 

[Freebrd]

outtahere[/B];1866041] However, I do expect my company to treat me as a professional, and to follow the contract that they signed in good faith. .

thought you were leaving, so go already will you, you're all talk, you won't leave

 

[GeekMaster]

Not one time in my post did I mention burn the place down, I don't want that. However, I do expect my company to treat me as a professional, and to follow the contract that they signed in good faith. Please don't think for a second however, that if it is more profitable for Skywest to shrink ASA and then absorb what is left over into Skywest airlines that they won't do it. We are not your run of the mill sweatshop regional, and I don't want to be, that will be our undoing though. In my opinion, I would rather ASA disappear than subject ourselves to a contract like Pinnacle or Mesa, we are all better than that.

Ok we're making progress here. This post represents much softer edges than the harshness of your original post.

SOOO let's look at it. First question then: Instead of having ASA "disappear", do you think there's a chance we could first look at totally different ideas that would protect our incomes and quality of life while at the same time lowering our total cost? Be open minded. We're looking for solutions, not mindless complaints.

Do you at least see the potential that if we became the regional airline with the best bang for the buck (not necessarily the absolute cheapest) then we would become the "go to" choice? Remember, Skywest Inc NEEDS at least two different divisions in order to deal with no compete clauses among its mainline customers.

I don't know how long you've been here, but all and all, we are treated very well overall at ASA. Yes we need to resolve this red arrow issue and the grievance is moving along. I agree WITH YOU in that we don't want to become a Mesa or Pinnacle. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BEING TREATED BADLY IS until you look at the life of a MESA pilot. (mesa sucks)

So final question: If an acceptable solution is found, would you still rather "walk away at the next decent opportunity" or hang around and make it better?

 

[outtahere]

Ok we're making progress here. This post represents much softer edges than the harshness of your original post.

SOOO let's look at it. First question then: Instead of having ASA "disappear", do you think there's a chance we could first look at totally different ideas that would protect our incomes and quality of life while at the same time lowering our total cost? Be open minded. We're looking for solutions, not mindless complaints.

Do you at least see the potential that if we became the regional airline with the best bang for the buck (not necessarily the absolute cheapest) then we would become the "go to" choice? Remember, Skywest Inc NEEDS at least two different divisions in order to deal with no compete clauses among its mainline customers.

I don't know how long you've been here, but all and all, we are treated very well overall at ASA. Yes we need to resolve this red arrow issue and the grievance is moving along. I agree WITH YOU in that we don't want to become a Mesa or Pinnacle. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT BEING TREATED BADLY IS until you look at the life of a MESA pilot. (mesa sucks)

So final question: If an acceptable solution is found, would you still rather "walk away at the next decent opportunity" or hang around and make it better?

I'll still leave because as soon as the pilot shortage starts, everyone will be doing four days with twelve off, and getting extended after every trip. It won't matter if you have in one year or twenty, that is our future. The regional industry is never going to change. I've heard through the grapevine that the rest of fall and winter are going to be red arrowed out because the company is afraid of swine flu causing alot of sick calls. Wake up guys! Skywest will be here in force by the winter, and we will still be shrinking.

 

[GeekMaster]

I'll still leave because as soon as the pilot shortage starts, everyone will be doing four days with twelve off, and getting extended after every trip. It won't matter if you have in one year or twenty, that is our future. The regional industry is never going to change. I've heard through the grapevine that the rest of fall and winter are going to be red arrowed out because the company is afraid of swine flu causing alot of sick calls. Wake up guys! Skywest will be here in force by the winter, and we will still be shrinking.

Ok then I sincerely wish you best of luck. I will add that once you do, you'll learn a little more about the industry itself. You will learn, when you get to Delta or Continental our wherever you're going, that you will encounter the same issues. Simply put, in this brave new world of the airline industry, front line employees are no longer considered an asset. They are a liability. Even at the majors, they've endured furloughs, pay cuts, tighter work rule adjustments and many other downward pressures. IT WILL BE THE SAME CIRCUS WITH DIFFERENT CLOWNS!

I notice you didn't hold onto your original sentiment that ASA would "disappear". That's an improvement. Hopefully, you've also (openly or privately) let go of the "become a man/stand up for yourself" martyrdom approach to fixing things here. Do we agree on that will accomplish nothing?

In the meantime the rest of us will hopefully open our minds on new ideas to compete and improve our already decent jobs.

 

[Freebrd]

I've heard through the grapevine that the rest of fall and winter are going to be red arrowed out because the company is afraid of swine flu causing alot of sick calls. Wake up guys! Skywest will be here in force by the winter, and we will still be shrinking.

did your 'grapevine' also tell you that the skywest crews can/will get the flu too? man you are one paranoid fella. if I were you I'd git right now, LEAVE!