No arbitration in SWA and F9 deal

[Tanker Clown]

FDJ2,

Thanks for the F9 info. With reports like that, they must have a ton of offers to get out of Ch 11. You should be a Ch 11 expert, being a Delta guy and all.

 

[shootr]

Decisions...no. This decision...it would seem so. For what it's worth, SWAPA and FAPA have already had post announcement meetings and SWAPA officials seem to be happy with where FAPA is coming from. They have been in communication about this very thing for over a year.

 

[starchkr]

All of you who keep talking baout voting on what SWAPA comes up with for an integration do realize that a deal MUST be reached by the 10th right? It's now the 5th...do you have anything to vote on yet? I would bet that your management WILL go through with a purchase if they want to no matter what the pilot group thinks or says, since there are only 5 days remaining before the auction takes place.

Also, how many of you know what the RAH plan is for F9? Why do you think a SWA deal may be better than the RAH deal? I have heard what is planned for the company should RAH win...fences, planes, staffing, etc...not sure if i can exactly share them, but they sound a little better than the "hired as needed" plan that SWA has put forth so far. That could change though in the next few days, so we will have to see.

Also, like has been said, the employees at F9 do not get a very big say in which deal gets taken. We can agree to everything you SWA pilots want, and you still may lose the auction because of the Unsecured Creditors Committee and the judge. Again! RAH holds the largest say outside the judge as to which bid gets accpeted since they are number one on the UCC. We'll have to wait until the 11th to see, so really, right now bickering over seniority is pretty moot.

 

[Cometman]

All of you who keep talking baout voting on what SWAPA comes up with for an integration do realize that a deal MUST be reached by the 10th right? It's now the 5th...do you have anything to vote on yet? I would bet that your management WILL go through with a purchase if they want to no matter what the pilot group thinks or says, since there are only 5 days remaining before the auction takes place.

Also, how many of you know what the RAH plan is for F9? Why do you think a SWA deal may be better than the RAH deal? I have heard what is planned for the company should RAH win...fences, planes, staffing, etc...not sure if i can exactly share them, but they sound a little better than the "hired as needed" plan that SWA has put forth so far. That could change though in the next few days, so we will have to see.

Also, like has been said, the employees at F9 do not get a very big say in which deal gets taken. We can agree to everything you SWA pilots want, and you still may lose the auction because of the Unsecured Creditors Committee and the judge. Again! RAH holds the largest say outside the judge as to which bid gets accpeted since they are number one on the UCC. We'll have to wait until the 11th to see, so really, right now bickering over seniority is pretty moot.

First of all if SWA wins do you really need to decide which company would be better for you. Being at the bottom with the pay and benefits would be the best choice. If SWA wins and you don't like the deal SWAPA offered, don't take it.

 

[U2DRVR]

All of you who keep talking baout voting on what SWAPA comes up with for an integration do realize that a deal MUST be reached by the 10th right?

RAH holds the largest say outside the judge as to which bid gets accpeted since they are number one on the UCC.

Both incorrect

SWA will structure their bid such that the deal will not close unless and until labor agreements are reached. The deal is not likely to close until the end of the year. The auction will end on the 17th and then SWAPA and FAPA will have at least 30-45 days to come to an agreement. What they agree to will depend heavily on the details of how the purchase is structured.

RAH will not have a vote because they are a bidder and are legally obligated to recuse themselves from the decision.

 

[Tanker Clown]

I may be no legal scholar, but I can only assume that since RAH is on the board of creditors, they must recuse themselves from the proceedings.

 

[koko nw]

I have little doubt that SWAPA wants to staple F9 pilots, but I also have little doubt that at the end of the day SWAPA will have little say in the acquisition and if F9 is acquired that the Bond-McCaskill bill will mandate A-M LPPs.

UOTE]
I beg to differ as the man said a couple of postings ago

"Swapa will have a legally binding way to stop the deal. The binding offer will have a contengency requiring a labor agreement between the pilot groups prior to closing of the transaction.

That is how the Swapa president can say with all certainty that this will not go to arbitration. We either come to agreement or the deal is off"

You may be right about having to integrate them but what's to stop them from furloughing them later on? Isn't that what's being proposed at big D if not enough folks take the early out? You can't honestly believeyou folks are going to keep all the Delta and NWA's boys and girls are you with all your capacity reductions and "synergy" effects?

Remember this company ain't run like yours. The puzzle palace folks actually give a rats behind about their employees and it's culture. It might suprise you but they actually do listen to their front line employees.....How novel.

regards

 

[Porch]

As far as the hire as needed thing goes... I'd rather be hired as needed given WN's past hiring numbers, no furloughs & performance... than be at RAH. So you sit on the street for a while getting uneployment and enjoying your family or you get your EMT, volunteer @ the fire dept. We all know that you should have at least 1 year salary in the bank for situations like this... Right? In the long run it would behove the F9'ers. IMFOpinion

 

[starchkr]

First of all if SWA wins do you really need to decide which company would be better for you. Being at the bottom with the pay and benefits would be the best choice. If SWA wins and you don't like the deal SWAPA offered, don't take it.

Ummmmm...if SWA wins, do i really have any choice whatsoever as to which company would be "better"?

 

[starchkr]

Both incorrect

SWA will structure their bid such that the deal will not close unless and until labor agreements are reached. The deal is not likely to close until the end of the year. The auction will end on the 17th and then SWAPA and FAPA will have at least 30-45 days to come to an agreement. What they agree to will depend heavily on the details of how the purchase is structured.

RAH will not have a vote because they are a bidder and are legally obligated to recuse themselves from the decision.

Part one...ok, i understand the idea.

Part two...I guess that would make the pilots the next highest voice on the UCC.

 

[shootr]

Here's the chioce you have...convince your union leadership to come to an agreement with SWAPA and then vote yes. If SWA wins the auction, you just made your choice. If you get all militant, negotiations break down, and SWAPA politely asks SWA to pull out (and they comply as they said they would), there's your other choice. I agree this is a harsh reality. I don't envy your position. I truly wish you and your pilot group the best and I hope we can work this thing out.

shootr

 

[airlinepilot]

It will be interesting....RJ's and their payscales or SWA and their pay scales......let's see is that a hard one?

 

[StaySeated]

Both incorrect

SWA will structure their bid such that the deal will not close unless and until labor agreements are reached. The deal is not likely to close until the end of the year. The auction will end on the 17th and then SWAPA and FAPA will have at least 30-45 days to come to an agreement. What they agree to will depend heavily on the details of how the purchase is structured.

RAH will not have a vote because they are a bidder and are legally obligated to recuse themselves from the decision.

Respectfully, this is not accurate.

RAH does not have to recuse themselves and, if you read their investment proposal, they have significant leverage with regard to who wins the auction.

The RAH investment proposal is available publicly at the epiq website. Due to the fact that they presented the first qualifying offer and binding proposal (the only binding proposal thus far) they were able to seriously stack the deck in their favor.

The auction will take place, in $1 Million dollar increments, next Tuesday. The "Successful Proposal" will be decided on that day. Due to the fact that SWA and SWAPA are now saying that they must have an agreement prior to submitting a binding proposal and the binding proposal must be in by the 10th, I am not sure how there will be any sort of a vote. The RAH investment proposal does allow for an extension up to the 17th, however, RAH has the right to deny that extension.

RAH, as the "white night" (first person to submit a binding proposal) has essentially written the rules of the game. They couldn't be further from recusing themselves.

 

[FDJ2]

I have little doubt that SWAPA wants to staple F9 pilots, but I also have little doubt that at the end of the day SWAPA will have little say in the acquisition and if F9 is acquired that the Bond-McCaskill bill will mandate A-M LPPs.

UOTE]
I beg to differ as the man said a couple of postings ago

"Swapa will have a legally binding way to stop the deal. The binding offer will have a contengency requiring a labor agreement between the pilot groups prior to closing of the transaction.

That is how the Swapa president can say with all certainty that this will not go to arbitration. We either come to agreement or the deal is off"

From where does the SWAPA President derive the power to prevent SWA from acquiring F9? Maybe you have it written in your contract, could you produce the contract language that would prevent management from acquiring F9 without SWAPA's approval? Not saying your management won't back down in the end, just wondering where SWAPA has the contractual and binding power to drive management's decisions with regards to this merger.

You may be right about having to integrate them but what's to stop them from furloughing them later on?

If they furlough, wouldn't that be done in inverse seniority order at SWA? Or does SWAPA's PWA allow for furloughs in other than inverse seniority order? If the F9 pilots are integrated, what makes you believe they will be stapled?

Isn't that what's being proposed at big D if not enough folks take the early out?

No.

You can't honestly believeyou folks are going to keep all the Delta and NWA's boys and girls are you with all your capacity reductions and "synergy" effects?

No furlough planned so far, not even mentioned, but things change in this industry, even believe it or not at SWA, but this isn't about DAL, so nice try at changing the subject.

Remember this company ain't run like yours. The puzzle palace folks actually give a rats behind about their employees and it's culture. It might suprise you but they actually do listen to their front line employees.....How novel.

Really, at DAL we had negotiated payraises, and equity before the merger was even announced. Last I saw you don't even have a TA.

Good luck with your merger with F9 if it goes through. Remember the "Golden Rule". One day it might be you.

 

[FDJ2]

If you get all militant, negotiations break down, and SWAPA politely asks SWA to pull out (and they comply as they said they would), there's your other choice.

If SWAPA has enough pull to prevent a merger that SWA management apparently really wants, why don't you have a new contract? Certainly management at SWA will give SWAPA whatever it wants.

 

[737tanker]

If SWAPA has enough pull to prevent a merger that SWA management apparently really wants, why don't you have a new contract? Certainly management at SWA will give SWAPA whatever it wants.

SWA management has been quoted numerous time saying unless labor agreements are in place there will be no buying of Frontier. From what I hear management doesn't want to have happen at SWA what happened at UsAir/America West.

 

[Cometman]

Ummmmm...if SWA wins, do i really have any choice whatsoever as to which company would be "better"?

If and when SWA gets the bid and you are offered a staple then you can decide if you want to go with them. If you really feel that it is not fair, just stay behind. You have to be honest with yourself. F9 pilots should not expect to come out of Chapter 11 and be in better shape than they went in. You are on life support. You should be excited to be able to get off of it and have a job with SWA. Yes, there is a possiblilty that some F9 pilots will be out in the street for a while. There are guys out in the street now so at least they would be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[airlinepilot]

Gary has stated he will not go forward with the F9 deal unless SWAPA has sealed a labor deal with F9. If SWAPA and the F9 pilots cannot reach agreement then SWAPA will tell GARY a deal can't be reached and the deal is off. There will never be arbitration. I don't understand why that is so hard for some posters to understand.

 

[airlinepilot]

Our SWAPA Pres stated yesterday that SW pilots will get to vote on any agreement reached between F9 and SWAPA. I would assume that all the F9 pilots would get to vote also. Basically it will come down to a choice between WN and Replublic.

 

[Nevets]

Gary has stated he will not go forward with the F9 deal unless SWAPA has sealed a labor deal with F9. If SWAPA and the F9 pilots cannot reach agreement then SWAPA will tell GARY a deal can't be reached and the deal is off. There will never be arbitration. I don't understand why that is so hard for some posters to understand.

Maybe because this is the same thing that was told to the NWA and DAL pilots. I personally don't think SWA would do that to the SWA and F9 pilots. But the possibility is there.

 

[Bookingsareup]

Our SWAPA Pres stated yesterday that SW pilots will get to vote on any agreement reached between F9 and SWAPA. I would assume that all the F9 pilots would get to vote also. Basically it will come down to a choice between WN and Replublic.

There is no "CHOICE" for the pilots when it comes to SW vs RH! Can we get past this!! The pilots and employees will be TOLD who owns them.

 

[airlinepilot]

Yes there is a choice. The SWA bid will say that SWAPA and F9 pilots have to reach a signed and sealed agreement. If the F9 pilots reject the staple then they have by voting rejected SWA and selected Replublic.

 

[Cometman]

There is no "CHOICE" for the pilots when it comes to SW vs RH! Can we get past this!! The pilots and employees will be TOLD who owns them.

If F9 agrees with SWAPA and SWA wins the bid the deal goes through if approved by the court. However, if F9 doesn't agree with SWAPA, then SWA states they will not go forward with their bid. Then the only bid would be Republic. Does the court go with them or do they close the doors and seel everything off?

 

[shootr]

Maybe because this is the same thing that was told to the NWA and DAL pilots.

Can somebody from DAL/NWA clear this part up. Did your 2 groups not come to an agreement on your own?

 

[spiffomatic]

You are on life support. You should be excited to be able to get off of it and have a job with SWA. Yes, there is a possiblilty that some F9 pilots will be out in the street for a while.

And you guys want to pull the plug. Let's face it, SWA (at least the people expressing their opinions here) doesn't want arbitration because the result could actually be fair for both parties. Combined SWA/F9 will likely be smaller for a while before it may get bigger - it's not like there are tons of new markets to easily expand into and SWA cost structure ain't what it used to be. That ship has sailed, and I'm not sure I'd want to be on the very bottom of that likely shrinking seniority list when fuel hedging isn't there to make everything else insignificant.

It's an interesting contrast to RAH, a company with an unique business model and an F9 opportunity for a far more fair integration - Amongst some of the high and low-time backgrounds, RAH has quite a number of people with hours at a number of different airlines, J4J who've remained here, and those who have done their 20yrs flying in the military - but there's a broad appreciation for what F9 brings to the table and it won't be pushed aside. As much as the RAH contract and pay needs significant improvement, there's enough momentum here for large gains in both, and a new union leadership poised to make sure that happens. Equally recognized here is that F9's current payscales for the Airbus are viable and can be improved upon, and that a relatively reasonable bar has been set with respect to 190 pay with jetBlue's new scale.

For those at RAH who worked DEN E-170 flying for F9 until last year, it was the best thing going that most could remember doing while with the company, and there's no question that 99.9% went the extra mile to save fuel and create a positive customer experience in an attempt to keep F9 going.

The concept of a combined F9, Midwest and Mokulele (& Lynx) operation, with strong local appeal and devoted following, and a single combined seniority list with a reasonable integration (& fences, etc) seems like both a viable business plan and a chance at a strong pilot group with good negotiation leverage.

If nothing else, I wish the F9 pilots a fair and reasonable integration into SWA, who should remember where they came from and probably consider not charging the F9ers for a type rating. Otherwise, I'm confident that you'll be welcome with open arms into RAH.

 

[NuGuy]

Can somebody from DAL/NWA clear this part up. Did your 2 groups not come to an agreement on your own?

Heyas,

The short answer is "no".

DAL management was frothing at the mouth for the NWA deal. In an attempt to steamroller the process, they threw some trinkets at the DAL pilots, and SAID "we won't do the deal unless there is a contract AND a SLI agreement in place".

The DAL MEC thought they were going to ROTFLstomp the NWA MEC into a lopsided agreement, but the NWA guys dug their heels in and said "uh, no, it's going to be fair".

A joint contract WAS agreed to, but, predictably, the SLI wasn't. When this fell apart, DAL management "said" the deal was off.

Of note, during this time, a VERY loud contingent of "anti-merger" DAL pilots were preparing to recall all of the Council 44 reps over their support of the merger. I put that in quotes because, from the NWA side, it is unknown whether they were really anti-merger, or simply using that as a platform to scare guys into recalling the LEC 44 reps. With the merger boogyman gone, their platform evaporated, and the recall failed. But that whole thing was just a sideshow.

Fast forward a few weeks, and in one of the worst kept secrets of aviation, DAL announced they were doing the merger deal ANYWAY, and basically told the pilots to work things out. Of course, the DAL and NWA MECs were already up to speed, so it begs the question if the deal was really "off" at any point.

After some weeks of pointless negotiating, the SLI went to arbitration. During this time, you heard some pretty outlandish stuff from both sides.

Originally Posted by Cometman
You are on life support. You should be excited to be able to get off of it and have a job with SWA.

The NWA guys heard ALOT of this bovine excrement during the merger. It was spammed by all of the party line parrots. Ignore it. It's just noise.

I'm sure my good friend FDJ will have a slightly different perspective on the events, but suffice to say we've put aside our differences, and now work towards what's best for the entire group.

My advice to the F9 guys: You're worth more than you think. Don't listen to the other side, and negotiate what's best for you. Fact is, if the deal is worth doing now, it's worth doing no matter what. Fact is, if SWA DOESN'T do the deal, it isn't just a zero sum, where things remain status quo, but rather, a dangerous new competitor infuses an airline that has given SWA fits with a lot of cash, a lot feed, and a potential 2nd hub in MKE. There is a HUGE, expensive downside for SWA not doing this. Use that fact to your advantage

My advice to the SWA guys: Don't believe your own press.


Nu

 

[firstthird]

There are worlds of differences between DAL/NWA and SWA/F9. any reasonable observer already knows most of them so I won't repeat the obvious.

M&As are messy. F9 is 'lucky' enough to have two bids pending.

 

[waveflyer]

I think there are a lot of guys expressing their own self interest. Spiffomatic- that was well worded- but it smells like you like the possibility of F9 being on your list than on SWAs. Of course you do. But for frontier pilots- really, what is the better option? W/ rah how will your relationship w/ mgmt change? How will your control over your destiny? Either way- you're being acquired by airlines that have Far more pilots than you do- and therefore have democratic super majorities.

I just think Swa is a much better option. For culture and work environment. For QOL. Schedules. Pay. All-around. As long as you get on the Swa list- it's hard to see how you lose.

 

[MILPILOT17]

Heyas,

The short answer is "no".

DAL management was frothing at the mouth for the NWA deal. In an attempt to steamroller the process, they threw some trinkets at the DAL pilots, and SAID "we won't do the deal unless there is a contract AND a SLI agreement in place".

The DAL MEC thought they were going to ROTFLstomp the NWA MEC into a lopsided agreement, but the NWA guys dug their heels in and said "uh, no, it's going to be fair".

A joint contract WAS agreed to, but, predictably, the SLI wasn't. When this fell apart, DAL management "said" the deal was off.

Of note, during this time, a VERY loud contingent of "anti-merger" DAL pilots were preparing to recall all of the Council 44 reps over their support of the merger. I put that in quotes because, from the NWA side, it is unknown whether they were really anti-merger, or simply using that as a platform to scare guys into recalling the LEC 44 reps. With the merger boogyman gone, their platform evaporated, and the recall failed. But that whole thing was just a sideshow.

Fast forward a few weeks, and in one of the worst kept secrets of aviation, DAL announced they were doing the merger deal ANYWAY, and basically told the pilots to work things out. Of course, the DAL and NWA MECs were already up to speed, so it begs the question if the deal was really "off" at any point.

After some weeks of pointless negotiating, the SLI went to arbitration. During this time, you heard some pretty outlandish stuff from both sides.

Originally Posted by Cometman
You are on life support. You should be excited to be able to get off of it and have a job with SWA.

The NWA guys heard ALOT of this bovine excrement during the merger. It was spammed by all of the party line parrots. Ignore it. It's just noise.

I'm sure my good friend FDJ will have a slightly different perspective on the events, but suffice to say we've put aside our differences, and now work towards what's best for the entire group.

My advice to the F9 guys: You're worth more than you think. Don't listen to the other side, and negotiate what's best for you. Fact is, if the deal is worth doing now, it's worth doing no matter what. Fact is, if SWA DOESN'T do the deal, it isn't just a zero sum, where things remain status quo, but rather, a dangerous new competitor infuses an airline that has given SWA fits with a lot of cash, a lot feed, and a potential 2nd hub in MKE. There is a HUGE, expensive downside for SWA not doing this. Use that fact to your advantage

My advice to the SWA guys: Don't believe your own press.


Nu

Nice post! Thanks for the insight.

 

[slaquer5]

Heyas,

.

My advice to the F9 guys: You're worth more than you think. Don't listen to the other side, and negotiate what's best for you. Fact is, if the deal is worth doing now, it's worth doing no matter what. Fact is, if SWA DOESN'T do the deal, it isn't just a zero sum, where things remain status quo, but rather, a dangerous new competitor infuses an airline that has given SWA fits with a lot of cash, a lot feed, and a potential 2nd hub in MKE. There is a HUGE, expensive downside for SWA not doing this. Use that fact to your advantage

My advice to the SWA guys: Don't believe your own press.


Nu

Thats some good advise for someone that has no skin in the game. If your advise does not pan out are you going to compensate the F9 guys.

I think your the same guy that was saying buy GM at 40 bucks a share.