NMB to ASA: keep negotiating

[IHateDaley]

More dates have been announced: 6/28 & 6/29. This sounds like a broken record.

 

[WWEfan]

Disappointing to say the least.

 

[Crash Pad]

at least the golfing is a nice perk

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Vote your job.....lobby your hobby....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

When the sides are less than 10 mil apart there is no way that they are going to release. It sucks but that is the way that the NMB sees it.

 

[jeroom]

Then yes it sucks...

Looks like we'll be in d a m n negociations for the rest of our lives (I already know what the outcome of those future "negociations" dates will be).

We should all go wherever this time they will meet, block the door once they start, and not let them come out until we have a TA!

 

[79%N1]

How about our negotiators focus on getting a fair deal that works for the pilots and the company instead of holding out for a release. It is time to freakin compromise and get this damn thing done!!! We have achieved most of the goals we initially set forth, and are close on the rest. We need a little give and take and get this finished so we can finally move forward.

 

[~~~^~~~]

A release is needed to do the horse trading required to get this deal done. Right now, we don't have a Section 1 to our contract. A release is the union's most effective tool and they don't want to walk away without having had the opportunity to use it.

ACL65's comment was interesting. What do you think if the only open section is Section 1? What about a release with nearly no difference in economic items?

When the release comes, we can expect it to not be during a "busy" time of the year. I'm willing to wager $5 on something within 45 days of October 1st.

 

[PCL_128]

When the sides are less than 10 mil apart there is no way that they are going to release. It sucks but that is the way that the NMB sees it.

Not true at all. The NMB doesn't look at it like that. In fact, your chance of a release actually gets better when you narrow down the differences between the proposals. Once you've done that and can still make no ground, then the NMB will either have to park you (unlikely again since we're closing in on 5 years), or release you. The problem that ASA has had for so long is that they've had way too many issues still on the table. For several years only a handful of sections were TA'd. The way to get a release is to settle as many sections as you can so as to leave only the big-ticket items. The company will then balk at giving you any ground at all, and then an impasse being declared is only a matter of time.

 

[crjskipper]

the CNC has been promising for the last month that a release was 'definite' since the nmb was 'furious' with the company for their lack of effort. at my lunch with the CNC a few weeks ago durring recurrent JR and NT swore to my group that a release was imminent. i asked what they would do if we werent released since the summer was coming, and what if they didnt achieve their end game of a release, what if just maybe they are wrong - and i was told by Nt that I was listening to management too much.

face it - the CNC has gambled and lost. any contractual improvements have been pushed off for at least three more months. some will say i'm all doom and gloom - but at what point does the CNC and MEC need to become accountable.

they need to be replaced pronto...

 

[TurboAWD]

they need to be replaced pronto...

You've waited this long and can't stomach another three months? This is your whole career they are fighting for right now. Just because the American public has been to blind to see the degradation of the middle class and continued to vote in anti-labor politicians doesn't mean your MEC or NC are not doing their job, it just means the are fighting a uphill battle. And they need your support, not just a give up and take what mgmt is offering attitude.

Turbo

 

[PCL_128]

Vote your job.....lobby your hobby....

You know, I'm almost starting to agree with you on that.

 

[79%N1]

the CNC has been promising for the last month that a release was 'definite' since the nmb was 'furious' with the company for their lack of effort. at my lunch with the CNC a few weeks ago durring recurrent JR and NT swore to my group that a release was imminent. i asked what they would do if we werent released since the summer was coming, and what if they didnt achieve their end game of a release, what if just maybe they are wrong - and i was told by Nt that I was listening to management too much.

I heard exactly the same thing, and it seemed as this was our strategy. Maybe our CNC purposly stalled out the last session hoping to get more with a release. I don't know, I think that was a poor strategy. You have to remember, this is no longer about the middle class or getting what you want or think you deserve! What did the ACA guys 'want' from United? Did they ultimately achieve getting what they want? How about Air Wisconsin? How about more recently....Comair? (Yes, bankrupcy, I know) Mesaba? Management has a leg up in one respect. They are diluting their brands to enable crafty ways to keep costs down. Skywest type rates and contract is basically on the table. Ok, we want Express Jet rates. Well, look at what is happening to them now. They are forced to undercut othere airlines and try to get flying at super-low margins, one thing Skywest is unwilling to do! What if their stand-alone does not last? Where will they be then? We can puff our chests out and say it is up us to raise the bar for the industry (laughable), or raise our current standard in pay (yes, there is pay increases - maybe not what some want or think they deserve) and hugh leaps in QOL. If you are on reserve, or going to be on reserve wouldn't you like the new reserve rules? If you commute, wouldn't you like the new commuter policy? Would you not like the more freedom in trip swapping or open time? These not only are QOL, but have an economic impact, and we are losing every day. What about scheduling? In the initial polling, the overwhelming majority of pilots said these were the number 1 issues and concerns they wanted addressed! Well, they are awaiting. Now, we change course. I do not think right now one list or scope binding Skywest is achievable. So, what is plan B? How about a contract that benefits us in drastic ways, and keeps us competitive not only for keeping our current flying, but to get new flying...maybe for an additional Mainline Partner. That would mean growth, hiring, upgrades and more domicile choices. We have lost out on some of these opportunities because of these dragging negotiations.

So much of these negotiations seem personal. The MEC seems more interested in fighting management and pointing fingers than coming to an equitable solution. I, for one think it is fair to receive a bonus to enhance my income. Just sit down and agree to one. We are demanding it be based on the profits of Skywest Airlines as well as our ASA side. Why is that? Skywest pilots do not receive their bonus plan based on ASA's profits. Just their side. Lets compromise on that....and it's done! One less thing. Agree to Skywest rates plus 1%, and if the raise theirs over the life of the contract, we match it......voila! Two done. What else? Retro. Well, we just gave in on a couple issues, so now the company can give in a little here and raise their offer. 3 down. See how it works. We stay competetive. Get the contract over. Get some new planes, maybe a new code share and enjoy our bigger paychecks and QOL improvements we all have screamed for for so long.

Can't we be reasonable?

 

[Jmoney]

Beyond Silly....

I can say both sides are to blame here. I hear that the company offered us exactly what Comair had years ago-but that wasn't "good enough." Now the company ain't offering us diddly.
Can you blame them?

We have been behaving like morons this whole negotiation cycle. We let ourselves get roped into that insane "interest-based bargaining" b.s.! That was a total waste of over two years!

I agree with Skipper-let's get what we can and get out of this silliness. The CNC has done their fair share of goofy stuff as well as the company. We simply are not going to get the moon and the stars-management knows what they are dealing with here-and it ain't exactly the A-Team.

I think we need to get rid of the concept of pilot-negotiators next time. These guys might try hard, but they have no professional experience. For what we have spent on all these guys negotiating over the past half-decade, we probably could have saved money by going with a professional negotiating firm that knows what the hell is going on. I'll bet we wouldn't be in this mess now.

That interest-based-bargaining stupidity is the main reason I am so averse to the way we have done things-any professional would never have agreed to that mess!

-Let's get real!

 

[JoeMerchant]

The amazing thing is that some people are actually surprised by this..... Based on our current table position.... and the current environment, we will not be released.....

 

[crjskipper]

i am not giving up turbo - never will. i feel - as did about 15 of the 20 guys in my recurrent class - that what was currently on the table from the company is a fair deal. i feel that the CNC is out of touch - i disagreed with their 'belief' and i was right. i was openly told i was wrong to my face when i offered a different opinion.

the CNC seems to be under the single mindset that if a release was accomplished the outcome would be a win not matter what for alpa - JA gives in and we get the greatest contract ever - or we strike and do down as martyrs.

i am not willing to sacrifice my future on the beliefs of a few alpa individuals who are (in my view) in this for themselves.

they were sure - they were wrong - they need to change course.

 

[outtahere]

Has anyone on here actually gone on the website and looked at the current proposal from the CNC? Middle of the road at best on the 200/ATR, less than Express jet, just slightly above Chatauqua, who by the way is going to start negotiations soon. The 700 rates are the second highest, for now as I said you have alot of groups starting negotiations, however that is still only a 3% increase over current book. The main issues holding us up are scope and back pay. Personally, the current proposal rates are already to low for me, I will not sign without scope, and I doubt it will happen but I want 100% retro. Now if that is to much for you turncoats to stomach then why aren't you trying to find another job. And if you are trying to find another job then stop trying to sabotage this current negotiations. Joe I know you are a lifer, no need to respond.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You know, I'm almost starting to agree with you on that.

And it is not like I came up with it..... its been said by the long term guys that have been doing this for decades...

 

[GeekMaster]

For those of you kind enough to read my thread on the "silent majority", I thank you.

As I stated on that thread, WITH OUR CURRENT DEMANDS ON 50 SEAT RATES WE WILL NOT BE RELEASED!!!! I also pointed out that the ALPA reps have already acknowledged that the current ASA offer would pass at around 60%. So imagine this:

We lower our pay demands to "at or near" current SKW rates and work instead on liveable COLA increases over the contract. Use the remainder of any negotiating capital on what we can acheive in scope. (we ain't gettin single list....the mona lisa aint for sale) Instead of damning the company to extinction with full retro, work for a more acheivable $5mil or so signing bonus.

The best scope on a deal like this is that there is no economical advantage to disassemble ASA. Contrare: we are now a stable, cost competitive regional with known costs ready to bid on more flying where SKW inc simply can't go. (due to no compete clauses)

I'm betting the 60% silent majority becomes 75+ right away.

 

[crjskipper]

outahere - how are we turncoats if we are happy with what we could get now? most of us are only now beginning to realize all of the benefits already TA'd in the new contract. how about you find somewhere else to go where you can get all those happy things you want without the real possibility of screwing it for the rest of us.

guess what - you are the minority and every day more and more lemmings like yourself are fading away.

you can say all those tough-guy things - beat yourself on the chest all you want. call us turncoats for being informed and making our own decisions after listening to all the arguments.

most of us want a contract that is good for us and the company - whether you plan and stay here or not. the top 100 pilots may not love it - but they are still above most of their peers in the industry.

our union leadership is no longer listening to their members. i respect your right to your opinion though i heartily disagree with it, it is not in our best interest - i challenge you to keep this professional and above the waist.

turncoat to you - but you keep making me feel like a prophet...

 

[John Pennekamp]

So much of these negotiations seem personal. The MEC seems more interested in fighting management and pointing fingers than coming to an equitable solution. I, for one think it is fair to receive a bonus to enhance my income. Just sit down and agree to one. We are demanding it be based on the profits of Skywest Airlines as well as our ASA side. Why is that? Skywest pilots do not receive their bonus plan based on ASA's profits. Just their side. Lets compromise on that....and it's done! One less thing. Agree to Skywest rates plus 1%, and if the raise theirs over the life of the contract, we match it......voila! Two done. What else? Retro. Well, we just gave in on a couple issues, so now the company can give in a little here and raise their offer. 3 down. See how it works. We stay competetive. Get the contract over. Get some new planes, maybe a new code share and enjoy our bigger paychecks and QOL improvements we all have screamed for for so long.

Can't we be reasonable?

Because the union spent the last three years raising everyone's expectations out of the stratosphere.

Now, they can't back down or they'll lose face.

This current MEC can't get it done. It's time to replace them. They gambled our careers, certain they would get a release, and lost... AGAIN. They just don't get it.

 

[PCL_128]

This current MEC can't get it done. It's time to replace them. They gambled our careers, certain they would get a release, and lost... AGAIN. They just don't get it.

Do you have any valid replacements to offer? Telling people to remove their leadership without having experienced replacements is suicide.

 

[Palerider957]

If nothing else, the current MEC just hasn't achieved results. This alone is reason to replace them. It's nothing personal, but a change at the helm might be healthy for everyone.

 

[Palerider957]

Do you have any valid replacements to offer? Telling people to remove their leadership without having experienced replacements is suicide.

Suicide? That's a bit dramatic, don't you think. Experience isn't always helpful, remember your CRM classes? Get some new blood in the mix, and perhaps some of the old ALPA/managment grudges might ease a bit.

IMHO.

Either way, the ASA pilot deserve a good contract.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Do you have any valid replacements to offer? Telling people to remove their leadership without having experienced replacements is suicide.

MYOB, PCL, you don't even work here. The ASA pilots know who their choices are.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So now what? Here, let me lay it out for you.

The union will spin this that we're SO CLOSE NOW and we'll get released this time FOR SURE. Then they'll go negotiate, make minor improvements, and we'll be right back where we are now in October. Then the cycle repeats.

I know the MEC is reading this. Y'all have had your last chance. Settle the contract this month, or we'll find someone who will.

If "all the money on the table can't buy scope", then the best scope we can get is to be competetive. Take SKW plus cola and settle.

It's over boys. Time to stop chasing windmills.

 

[SSDD]

In my experience, if the company is being unreasonable, then the mediator leans towards release, but if labor's demads are out of whack, then they tend to keep you tied up.

Just an observation.

 

[JoeMerchant]

In my experience, if the company is being unreasonable, then the mediator leans towards release, but if labor's demads are out of whack, then they tend to keep you tied up.

Just an observation.

Your absolutely correct SSDD, but that falls on deaf ears with the hardliners.... they don't want to believe it....

If the NMB thought we were the ones being reasonable, then we would already have our release...

 

[PCL_128]

MYOB, PCL, you don't even work here. The ASA pilots know who their choices are.

In other words, you don't have any ideas. Thought so.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Has anyone on here actually gone on the website and looked at the current proposal from the CNC? Middle of the road at best on the 200/ATR, less than Express jet, just slightly above Chatauqua, who by the way is going to start negotiations soon. The 700 rates are the second highest, for now as I said you have alot of groups starting negotiations, however that is still only a 3% increase over current book. The main issues holding us up are scope and back pay. Personally, the current proposal rates are already to low for me, I will not sign without scope, and I doubt it will happen but I want 100% retro. Now if that is to much for you turncoats to stomach then why aren't you trying to find another job. And if you are trying to find another job then stop trying to sabotage this current negotiations. Joe I know you are a lifer, no need to respond.

If that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.... if this is too little for you chest -thumping alpaistas, then why don't YOU find another job.... I'm not holding a gun to your head to stay, so don't try and take me down because you are pi$$ed about way things are going....