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Originally Posted by wolfpackpilot
I know 4 NJA FO cross-overs who will tell you it is the hardest airplane they have ever learned to fly.

:cool: and I question whether they actually can fly it.



He is correct about at least two and its not just the G .. but he also cannot say he was not warned !!!
 
I believe we at NJI are being treated fairly during this integration, even as almost all of us are chagrined at being forced to join a union. However, the trips we fly are often quite difficult, and overseas experience was crucial during start up of NJI. The airplane, by the way, is enjoyable, but challenging to fly smoothly.
I think we all will get along fine, as most of the NJA crossovers are fitting in well. Let's hope we recall the furloughees soon!
 
So now we're back to 'mine's harder than yours'? I was in my early 20s flying close to the East German buffer zone doing 480 kts groung at 200' AGL with very little experience. Amazing how we all learned so quickly, both conventional and nuke tactics, while listening to the RAWS reminding us how many Soviet missiles were along that border.

My point is that most pilots adapt very well to whatever equipment and airspace rules they encounter very well. There are always a few who slip through. I'll wager even some origional EJI/NJI folks fall into that category as well. Like the few who are very senior FOs who couldn't upgrade if their lives depended on it? And those who continue to try and sell the "difficulty" probably fall into that category as well.
 
Pervis said:
So now we're back to 'mine's harder than yours'? I was in my early 20s flying close to the East German buffer zone doing 480 kts groung at 200' AGL with very little experience. Amazing how we all learned so quickly, both conventional and nuke tactics, while listening to the RAWS reminding us how many Soviet missiles were along that border.

My point is that most pilots adapt very well to whatever equipment and airspace rules they encounter very well. There are always a few who slip through. I'll wager even some origional EJI/NJI folks fall into that category as well. Like the few who are very senior FOs who couldn't upgrade if their lives depended on it? And those who continue to try and sell the "difficulty" probably fall into that category as well.
Click to expand...


I listened to two NJI crews about 5+ years ago tell me they were "sure" the G200 was coming to the NJI side of the house because it was a Gulfstream product and Gulfstream won't let union folks fly "their" product.
It seems to me, many NJI folks were fed a huge amount of "you're a cut above", problem is a few folks still believe it, and profess it.
It's amazing how some folks still cling to the "but we were told this and promised that".
Next we'll see posts along the lines....
Europe and Asia will deny NJA access to their airspace because of the continuing onslaught of lost non-NJI piloted Gulfstreams blundering across borders, causing international incidents.
Please stop with the fear mongering.
International flying is not as tough as you make it out to be.

I don't think I missed the point of this thread at all.
 
JPPT is right.

Back when I was at Delta, there was a period when new hires were going to JFK 767ER FO. No one wanted to commute and be junior in the seat. On the Delta pilot forum there was much wailing and crying. "They can't be international pilots with no experience." A senior Capt answered this way. "If an MD88 Capt can get by with one new hire FO, I guess I can manage with two." They did just fine. It's called training. Most pilots are sponges, they will absorb what you teach them. The problem comes when you think they already know something before you start. Maybe, maybe not.

It's similar to another thing that was common at Delta. Military guys thought they were superior to pilots with civilian backgrounds and vice versa. As a check pilot for a number of years, I can tell you neither were right. Each group brought a different skill set to the party. Neither were complete. The good ones, from both sides, worked hard to fill the gaps and become the complete package. The rest were the ones who claimed to be better due to where they came from.

Just MHO,
Helm
 
Now that was a fine post. I vote post of the year...

Nicely put Helmsalee
 
wolfpackpilot said:
I know.... and I'm the PIC..... :laugh:
Click to expand...

Just think, for every day that passes for the rest of your career, you'll be getting more junior in your fleet. Every single new pilot that upgrades in the G will be senior to you. Your vacations bids will get worse, holding your choice of schedule will get more difficult, and every time you fly with another captain, you'll be the junior guy...no matter how long you stay at NJ. That's gotta be frustrating. Enjoy that G lil fella! :laugh:
 
NachoMamma said:
Just think, for every day that passes for the rest of your career, you'll be getting more junior in your fleet. Every single new pilot that upgrades in the G will be senior to you. Your vacations bids will get worse, holding your choice of schedule will get more difficult, and every time you fly with another captain, you'll be the junior guy...no matter how long you stay at NJ. That's gotta be frustrating. Enjoy that G lil fella! :laugh:
Click to expand...

In case you hadn't heard, the G-IV fleet is shrinking. One airplane sold a few weeks ago and is currently being refurbed in SAV before heading to its new owner (EJM client btw). Another sale is imminent. Translation: there won't be many more PIC bids in the IV. NJI may "owe" a few slots to NJA per the LOA but that will be it. As soon as integration is complete, the IV will be put into disposal. EVERYBODY in that fleet will become more junior every year.

And as for the V fleet, let's see. About a 140 PIC's and 15 SIC's. Doesn't take Einstein to see there won't be a whole lot of bids for the left seat for, oh, say a decade.

So don't feel bad for Wolfie or anyone for that matter. He'll be telling the other guy to load the bags more often than not for a while yet.
 
When the inequities of the LOAs with bidding limitations and pay differences are addressed in the next CBA, guess who will have the vast majority vote? Be careful not to burn the bridges you have yet to cross.
 
As much as I'd like to be a G-Whiz captain, I doubt it is in my future for the next 20 years minimum. Whatever the next CBA is, I don't see the union throwing the soon to be brothers under the bus and booting them from their seats. I am sure the company won't agree to any contract that allows for system wide bids like the airlines since that is a ginormous expense to retype and train hundreds of pilots over a seniority issue. About the biggest kick in the balls I can see is a big G-V downgrade binge by management right before the final integration (I am not saying it will happen or that I wish it to happen- just that it could happen). If it doesn't happen there, I don't see how anyone gets another upgrade on the V ever again with their current CA to FO ratio. I'd have to say the only way NJA guys will get seats is if we order the 650 and shrink the Vs when they come on property.
 
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jtf said:
As much as I'd like to be a G-Whiz captain, I doubt it is in my future for the next 20 years minimum. Whatever the next CBA is, I don't see the union throwing the soon to be brothers under the bus and booting them from their seats. I am sure the company won't agree to any contract that allows for system wide bids like the airlines since that is a ginormous expense to retype and train hundreds of pilots over a seniority issue. About the biggest kick in the balls I can see is a big G-V downgrade binge by management right before the final integration (I am not saying it will happen or that I wish it to happen- just that it could happen). If it doesn't happen there, I don't see how anyone gets another upgrade on the V ever again with their current CA to FO ratio. I'd have to say the only way NJA guys will get seats is if we order the 650 and shrink the Vs when they come on property.
Click to expand...

Sorry Wolf: Winner, winner. Chicken dinner.
 
NachoMamma said:
Every single new pilot that upgrades in the G will be senior to you.
Click to expand...

Like when I upgrade in the V? Lets see.... I have no seat lock, and you MUST be in the IV fleet to go to the V, and new Captains in the IV will have an equipment lock. As for the fleet disposal situation, they start from the bottom, and I'm not at the bottom.

So.... eventually, I will transition to the V as a PIC, keep my pay, still have 4 weeks of vacation, never fall below my current salary and will receive a 3.5% pay raise every year. And if I choose to stay at NetJets, all I need is 15 more years to retire. Hmm.....

Thanks for the LOA boys, I call it the "new McDonalds" cause I'm lovin it.
 
wolfpackpilot said:
Like when I upgrade in the V? Lets see.... I have no seat lock, and you MUST be in the IV fleet to go to the V, and new Captains in the IV will have an equipment lock. As for the fleet disposal situation, they start from the bottom, and I'm not at the bottom.

So.... eventually, I will transition to the V as a PIC, keep my pay, still have 4 weeks of vacation, never fall below my current salary and will receive a 3.5% pay raise every year. And if I choose to stay at NetJets, all I need is 15 more years to retire. Hmm.....

Thanks for the LOA boys, I call it the "new McDonalds" cause I'm lovin it.
Click to expand...

Good strategy Billy,
I hope it works out for you.
 
gutshotdraw said:
So don't feel bad for Wolfie or anyone for that matter. He'll be telling the other guy to load the bags more often than not for a while yet.
Click to expand...

Wolfie- cute nick name. Does his fo's call him that when landing? :)
 
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jonjuan said:
Wolfie- cute nick name. Does his fo's call him that when landing? :)
Click to expand...

I don't know. The closest we ever came to flying together was dinner in Teeterhole when we were sitting standby when I was still in the IV. And he was the F/O. My F/O's are usually too petrified to say anything when I'm landing the jet...
 
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