NJI Questions

[ozpilot]

Typically they smack my shoulder and say... "wake-up *sshole, its your turn to land".

:laugh::laugh:

 

[ozpilot]

I know 4 NJA FO cross-overs who will tell you it is the hardest airplane they have ever learned to fly.

and I question whether they actually can fly it.

Hey no need to be baggin' on Diesel like that! He tries hard; he really does

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Hey no need to be baggin' on Diesel like that!

Actually George is an excellent pilot... Although his head/ego is the size of Texas.

 

[Abbey]

Like when I upgrade in the V? Lets see.... I have no seat lock, and you MUST be in the IV fleet to go to the V, and new Captains in the IV will have an equipment lock. As for the fleet disposal situation, they start from the bottom, and I'm not at the bottom.

So.... eventually, I will transition to the V as a PIC, keep my pay, still have 4 weeks of vacation, never fall below my current salary and will receive a 3.5% pay raise every year. And if I choose to stay at NetJets, all I need is 15 more years to retire. Hmm.....

Thanks for the LOA boys, I call it the "new McDonalds" cause I'm lovin it.

Our Union leadership failed miserably by representing the interests of non union pilots at the expense of the dues paying members. Of course, they were given their 30 pieces from management for the effort.

From the NJA pilots, you're welcome.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Our Union leadership failed miserably by representing the interests of non union pilots at the expense of the dues paying members. Of course, they were given their 30 pieces from management for the effort.

From the NJA pilots, you're welcome.

Thanks for nothing. It's a location joke. You have to be here to get it.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Well Abbey...


At least you have the balls to say how you feel. I respect that.

 

[Abbey]

Gut,

Maybe so. Enjoy the 3 hour show/go before your hot spare in LVS. You'll soon be here to get that. We all get that.

 

[Sky Captain]

I've said before, you wanted an arranged marriage, you got one. Hope you like your new bride...

I will like my new bride fine as long as you continue to cook, clean, and SWALLOW your ego (just kidding about ego) as we consumate our new Union (ie marriage). Welcome to OUR family!

 

[Pervis]

I'm curious how long the bidding restrictions will continue post integration, especially since the IV will enter CBA defined disposal status. Those restrictions were written for two separate entities. With all combined, assuming our union grows any teeth, all aircraft bids will be strictly seniority based bids.

As far as the pay issue, I still see concern by some NJI pilots that a pay cut is involved. For some that have never dealt with written agreements, that may seem possible. However, the letter sent to all NJI pilots is very clear, and enforceable like all parts of the CBA. There will be no reduction in salary, whatever option you chose. That's the sort of thing many NJA pilots have a problem with. Not NJI protection per se, but the lack of language bringing us UP to parity.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I'm curious how long the bidding restrictions will continue post integration, especially since the IV will enter CBA defined disposal status. Those restrictions were written for two separate entities. With all combined, assuming our union grows any teeth, all aircraft bids will be strictly seniority based bids.

As far as the pay issue, I still see concern by some NJI pilots that a pay cut is involved. For some that have never dealt with written agreements, that may seem possible. However, the letter sent to all NJI pilots is very clear, and enforceable like all parts of the CBA. There will be no reduction in salary, whatever option you chose. That's the sort of thing many NJA pilots have a problem with. Not NJI protection per se, but the lack of language bringing us UP to parity.

If it's on paper, it's on paper, right? That means BOTH parts of the LOA. If the union tries to obviate the fences, the people who will be pissed off the most will be NJA guys that came over and have been patiently putting in their time to comply with the terms.

The IV will be put into disposal status shortly after integration which only means that the most junior G-IV Captains (NJI people) will begin to fall off the fleet as aircraft are sold and will disperse among the other fleets. Other than that, pretty much status quo for the foreseeable future.

And don't get me started again on the pay situation. Like I said earlier, it's a location joke.

 

[Pervis]

One LOA has to do with NJA to NJI transition from 2007, while both companies were separate. It was never meant to stay in place post integration. The second LOA has to do with pay protection for NJI pilots POST integration, and clearly states that the company will look back, on an individual basis, and true up any difference, regardless of your choice. It also clearly states no NJI pilot will see a reduction in pay as a result of integration. Unless you recieved additional pay under the table, location makes no difference.

 

[Abbey]

Question

So when said junior G-IV PIC's fall off the airplane when the displacements start, are they going to be pay protected at their NJI PIC pay while they are holding down a SIC seat in the 40th percentile of any of the other fleets?

 

[Pervis]

So when said junior G-IV PIC's fall off the airplane when the displacements start, are they going to be pay protected at their NJI PIC pay while they are holding down a SIC seat in the 40th percentile of any of the other fleets?

They are seat protected. No one will be downgraded as far as rank is concerned.

 

[Ultra Grump]

They are seat protected. No one will be downgraded as far as rank is concerned.

There is no language addressing the combination of integration and fleet disposal. Should be interesting to see how the union deals with it. There are many IV PICs junior to the most junior 400 PIC. If true displacements occur post-integration - i.e., most junior IV PIC is junior-manned out of the fleet, our CBA language dictates that they will be downgraded to an SIC position.

 

[Abbey]

Thus the reason to upgrade every single NJI pilot that they could before integration.

NJI pilots, please do not confuse my dismay of our contract and our union leaders as hostility towards you. I am looking forward to us all being under one roof and operating together. The question is: who's best interest the union leadership has or had? I believe the answer is: their own. I guess it pays sometimes to be non union afterall.

 

[NJAPLT]

All I expect is for the company and union to follow the contract and loa's, including the fence.

Now, for the next contract, I will lobby for the fences to be eliminated, in the interest of fairness to the entire nja pilot group.

I would also expect any pay negotiation to bring us all up to the level of the nji pilots, after all, the company by accepting that highest pay rate the company has already said that pay rate is fair, and we need to work our pay scale up from there.

(In addition, we need longer pay scales, it will take way more than 10 years to upgrade an fo to captain, but we will be capped soon.) Of course, I have pic's in the g4 who are junior to me, great for them, I don't expect to take their seat, but it upsets the principal of seniority.

i have had a standing upgrade bid posted in every available airplane since the first day I was given access to crewops. I am starting my 6th year with NetJets. I guess the 9 month upgrade time I was told in my interview was slightly inaccurate?

I would imaging many of the pic's will have the same issue, as they reach the end of the negotiated pay scale (which I believe is shorter in the small and mid size cabin fleets.)

Like the fence, it is something that has to be taken care of during the contract negotiation.

 

[NJAPLT]

There is no language addressing the combination of integration and fleet disposal. Should be interesting to see how the union deals with it. There are many IV PICs junior to the most junior 400 PIC. If true displacements occur post-integration - i.e., most junior IV PIC is junior-manned out of the fleet, our CBA language dictates that they will be downgraded to an SIC position.

I just reread the loa, it says they will not have a reduction of pay as a result of the integration. Further more, it says the pay will continue until the pilot bids and is awarded another position. As long as a g4 pic does not bid an sic position, i can't see how the company could reduce their pay. I would guess they will get sic pay until the true-up occurs at he end of the year (saves the company interest.)

Of course, because they can't reduce these pilots pay, they may just decide it isn't worth it to downgrade them into sic slots, they may just displace them as Pics instead, where they would have the same pay as they had when nji existed.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

If true displacements occur post-integration - i.e., most junior IV PIC is junior-manned out of the fleet, our CBA language dictates that they will be downgraded to an SIC position.

I believe the company can also offer a special bid open only to those pilots being displaced. Much like they just did for the BBJ pilots. Now... I wonder what aircraft a displaced GIV pilot might be of use to the company.... I'm thinking the GV.

 

[NJAPLT]

True, they can offer a displacement bid from the 4 to the 5 after integration, and it will only be those in the fleet that is allowed to bid. Of course, anyone who did would lose the extra pay in my opinion, as it is a bid.

Now, if no one bids, the most junior pilots in that fleet can be forced to change planes, since they did not bid they would keep the pay provisions.

Of course, it's all theoretical until it happens. If I was coming over from nji I would make sure I had these issues clarified before bidding anything.

Oh, and for every pic position they offer, they must by contact displace an equal number of sic pilots. They do not have to go to the sane fleet however (The last ultra displacement sent pic's to the g200, and sic's to the da-2000.)

 

[netjetwife]

.... They do not have to go to the sane fleet however ....)

Meaning that all the others are insane... There are some people who think it's a crazy lifestyle frac pilots lead....

Seriously, I hope the transition goes smoothly for all involved. NJW

 

[NJAPLT]

Meaning that all the others are insane... There are some people who think it's a crazy lifestyle frac pilots lead....

Seriously, I hope the transition goes smoothly for all involved. NJW

D'oh... Have to love the autocorrect on the iPhone.....

 

[netjetwife]

It was one of the most interesting typos I've seen.... and frac pilots do have some crazy schedules sometimes.... it could fit...

 

[ozpilot]

If the union tries to obviate the fences, the people who will be pissed off the most will be NJA guys that came over and have been patiently putting in their time to comply with the terms.

Not sure where your going on this. Any NJA FO Cross Over who wants to bid GIV Captain has to bid against the VSL. Just like any NJA pilot. It is unlikely any of the NJA FO cross overs will ever see the left seat of a G.

What do you mean by "patiently putting in their time to comply with the terms"?

 

[Pervis]

Not sure where your going on this. Any NJA FO Cross Over who wants to bid GIV Captain has to bid against the VSL. Just like any NJA pilot. It is unlikely any of the NJA FO cross overs will ever see the left seat of a G.

What do you mean by "patiently putting in their time to comply with the terms"?

Probably refering to the PIC crossovers, which still doesn't matter. Those guys are very senior and can hold any airframe on the property. Almost all FOs would never see the left seat in a G if seniority rules, which it does.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Perv is right. I was referencing the NJA PIC's that have been serving the seat lock terms of the LOA waiting for a seat in the V. A bunch of the early crossovers are in the 200's. They would be the ones pissed off if the fence was suddenly dropped and a more senior guy jumped over them into the V without flying the IV first.

 

[Pervis]

Gutshot, there are a whole lot more pissed off that there are many more junior pilots already PIC in the IV and V. In fact, management outright lied about the upgrades that were done in the last two years, clearly to favor the NJI pilots. That is history. Bottom line is this is something we all have to live with now. Not everyone will be happy. That's a fact in every merger out there.

Are we going to move forward as one, or blame each other for the crap managemnt made out of this whole thing? That is exactly what management does when dealing with a union shop. Divide and conquer will result in the focus of the pilot group being in the wrong place. Guess who that helps out? Not us, that's for sure. Let's see what we can do when the next round of negotiations begin. My only concern is that our leadership takes a moment to consider the consequences of rushing LOAs, and the membership demands that of them. That's what got us where we are today. Some is good, but lots of unintended consequences have made their ugly heads visible recently.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I think we're caught in a mobius loop....





Arthur C. Clarke fans will get that.

 

[TransMach]

Yeah because the Gulfstream was waaaaay more difficult to fly than any other silly biz jet...what a bunch of crap.

"What he said!"

TransMach

 

[TransMach]

In case you hadn't heard, the G-IV fleet is shrinking. One airplane sold a few weeks ago and is currently being refurbed in SAV before heading to its new owner (EJM client btw). Another sale is imminent. Translation: there won't be many more PIC bids in the IV. NJI may "owe" a few slots to NJA per the LOA but that will be it. As soon as integration is complete, the IV will be put into disposal. EVERYBODY in that fleet will become more junior every year.

And as for the V fleet, let's see. About a 140 PIC's and 15 SIC's. Doesn't take Einstein to see there won't be a whole lot of bids for the left seat for, oh, say a decade.

So don't feel bad for Wolfie or anyone for that matter. He'll be telling the other guy to load the bags more often than not for a while yet.

Wow, now doesn't that tell the story ..

TransMach

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Not everyone will be happy. That's a fact in every merger out there.

Pervis,

I'm inline with your thought process on this. The jury is still out on how this whole 'integration' will play out over the years. I'm fascinated to be honest! I've always been an avid reader of Pilot Labor issues dating back to the RLA. It is truly amazing to see the trail that leads us to 2010 (and I'm not talking about NJA, but pilots in general).

Ten years ago I would have stood up and yelled at the top of my lungs "EXACTLY" what was going to happen, because I was that smart. :laugh: Now... I sit back and analyze, because I realize I have no crystal ball and this whole thing could go straight and narrow or take a mountain road in a heart beat.

NJI was a wonderful place to work, and the people made all the difference in the world. I took the best part of NJI with me, a 28 year old smoking hot blond bombshell from Idaho! and made her my wife. Life changes and NJI will soon be gone, that I have accepted. How I am treated and paid and so forth at NJA will determine my level of 'caring' for this company. I come from a long line of pilots, and I've never been scared to up and move if need be. That is just the way I'm wired. We'll see if it comes to that.

For me personally, I'm ready to shake hands and go out for Indian food with any NJA pilot that acts like a regular dude (95% of them). For the ones that cop an attitude with me I'll gladly give the middle finger too.

Wolf
(technically a BSU Bronco starting next month during football season)