NJI Questions

[gutshotdraw]

Gut,

I have long heard the story as you recant it here but...

I've never heard of a aircraft sales deal in the history of aircraft sales deals that let Unions get in the aircraft builder making a sale.

Money always trumps principle.

Always stunk like labor busting to me. JMHO, but I choose never to simply believe the story laid out by someone else as gospel...

We are together now... that's the important thing.

Fly, email Billy N. He'll answer and he'll confirm the story. Gulfstream was NOTORIOUSLY anti-union then and they were extremely protective of their brand image. They weren't exactly on board with the whole fractional concept and they were being asked to front TENS OF MILLIONS worth of airplanes to RTS. It wasn't a union busting thing on RTS' part. If it had been, he would have pushed harder for the G 200 to fall under the NJI banner (going to court if necessary) and he would have leveraged that fleet in 2005. He didn't do either.

Going forward, it's all water under the proverbial bridge. Some will think we got too sweet a deal and some will think we got shafted. As with all things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Fly, email Billy N. He'll answer and he'll confirm the story. Gulfstream was NOTORIOUSLY anti-union then and they were extremely protective of their brand image. They weren't exactly on board with the whole fractional concept and they were being asked to front TENS OF MILLIONS worth of airplanes to RTS. It wasn't a union busting thing on RTS' part. If it had been, he would have pushed harder for the G 200 to fall under the NJI banner (going to court if necessary) and he would have leveraged that fleet in 2005. He didn't do either.

Going forward, it's all water under the proverbial bridge. Some will think we got too sweet a deal and some will think we got shafted. As with all things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Gut,

For the life of me, I cannot recall a major aircraft manufacturer making a decision over billions in sales over who will fly them. Or what color their skin is. Or where the pilots live. Or what kind of movies they are into.

GD is in the business of selling airplanes and if they passed up a deal over something as petty as Union pilots, I would wager that management team wouldn't last long.

Again, money talks.

Tribal lore is tribal lore. It's great entertainment value. I'd no sooner believe anything Bill Noe said than my stock broker. They are both trying to sell an angle.

I read the facts and GD doesn't make money off of principles, they sell planes.

In 2004, if RTS would have wanted to add more fuel to the fire by sending the G200 to NJI, so be it. He'd of stoked a larger mess than he had.

 

[gutshotdraw]

GD didn't own Gulfstream in 1995. Wayyyyy different mindset then.

 

[gret]

How is Forstman Little different than GD? Why would they have a different mindset? If anything, quite the opposite. They would sell their children if a buck was involved.

 

[gutshotdraw]

At the time, the concept was unproven and Gulfstream was fearful of damaging their brand name in the corporate world if there was a problem. At the time, there were very few Exec Jet guys with any large aircraft or international experience and fewer still with and Gulfstream experience. To ramp up the operation quickly, EJA and Gulfstream formed Gulfstream Shares and went out and hired guys that had been flying G-II's, III's, and IV's for a couple of decades.

 

[NachoMamma]

At the time, there were very few Exec Jet guys with any large aircraft or international experience and fewer still with and Gulfstream experience. To ramp up the operation quickly, EJA and Gulfstream formed Gulfstream Shares and went out and hired guys that had been flying G-II's, III's, and IV's for a couple of decades.

Yeah because the Gulfstream was waaaaay more difficult to fly than any other silly biz jet...what a bunch of crap.

 

[Partyfoul]

Yeah because the Gulfstream was waaaaay more difficult to fly than any other silly biz jet...what a bunch of crap.

Nobody said it was. When Gulfstream fronts the money to help get it started they can have a say in who flys them.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Gulfstream was NOTORIOUSLY anti-union then and they were extremely protective of their brand image.

I can confirm this personally. My brother was instrumental in delivery of the early Gulfstream aircraft to EJI. With over 30 years of experience flying Gulfstream aircraft for the manufacture and numerous corporate clientele, he has told several times the exact same story you've heard from Gut. And he plays golf with the people who bought these jets, so you cant get much better information than that.

Ever wondered why the worlds premier private jet builder moved their entire operation to Savannah, GA? Do a little research on that and you will discover just how anti-union Gulfstream was.

Just the truth... no spin here.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Yeah because the Gulfstream was waaaaay more difficult to fly than any other silly biz jet...what a bunch of crap.

I know 4 NJA FO cross-overs who will tell you it is the hardest airplane they have ever learned to fly.

and I question whether they actually can fly it.

 

[gutshotdraw]

just the truth... No spin here.

w w c d

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

I've said before, you wanted an arranged marriage, you got one. Hope you like your new bride...

Kinda reminds of that old joke when the new covict goes into his jail cell and is greeted by his new cellmate"you wanna be the husband or do you wanna be the wife?". Giggle giggle.

Both sides aren't totally happy, so I think it may go well. Be patient folks, the ride has just left the station.

 

[gret]

I can confirm this personally. My brother was instrumental in delivery of the early Gulfstream aircraft to EJI. With over 30 years of experience flying Gulfstream aircraft for the manufacture and numerous corporate clientele, he has told several times the exact same story you've heard from Gut. And he plays golf with the people who bought these jets, so you cant get much better information than that.

Ever wondered why the worlds premier private jet builder moved their entire operation to Savannah, GA? Do a little research on that and you will discover just how anti-union Gulfstream was.

Just the truth... no spin here.

I guess we should all take this to the bank. Not sure what else they is to say.

If he plays golf with these guys and Gulfstream is the premier private jet builder...how can anyone dispute this?

 

[jppt2000]

I know 4 NJA FO cross-overs who will tell you it is the hardest airplane they have ever learned to fly.

and I question whether they actually can fly it.

Wow, attacking pilot's flying abilities, behind their backs.
Most of those pilots have been at NJA almost two to three times longer than you.

 

[NachoMamma]

I know 4 NJA FO cross-overs who will tell you it is the hardest airplane they have ever learned to fly.

*** YAWN ***
(That's me being really impressed) :laugh:

 

[av8trinabarrel]

I know 4 NJA FO cross-overs who will tell you it is the hardest airplane they have ever learned to fly.

and I question whether they actually can fly it.

Compared to most of the crap cessna puts out, it might be difficult, but anyone with RJ time or bigger, then a G training event is nothing more than 6 weeks of getting kicked in the nuts like any other airplane.

 

[Mountain Troll]

Well, for those that never have done it, guess you will never know if it is complicated or easy. But you keep speculating you tail off if that makes you happy. For me, the Gulfstream was more difficult than the BBJ or 757. Also, didn't Boeing make NJA hire some people to fly the BBJ for a year or two for IOE? I think those guys went elsewhere eventually, but my memory may be wrong, Boeing wouldn't sell the airframes without more experience in the front.....

 

[Mountain Troll]

Now further, if you look at what the actual experience level to include number of type ratings, total time. number of ocean crossings, continents operated on and so on, the NJI/EJI pilot applicant and new hire by far exceed NJA/EJA in comparison. Secondly, the posted minimums are just that, the least you can have. NJI/EJI has never hired anyone with just the minimum, oh, excuse me, I am wrong, they came from NJA, look at your LOA's. And finally, NJI/EJI never has had a recruiter or a program to recruit pilots. NJA/EJA has in the past recruited pilots, I even heard of a guy who chased a pilot into the bathroom at an FBO to get him to apply. Met a NJA guy a few years back whose only other job was a CFI at a mom n pop operation. NJI/EJI NEVER has done that. Now, attack me at your pleasure, it doesn't change the facts.

 

[Mountain Troll]

Sorry, I forgot. I know a few guys who were hired at NJA, still work there, are happy there. I have flown with them and would trust the lives of my family with them at any time. I am not a NJA hater.

 

[jppt2000]

Denial
Denial that there was an ongoing "issue" between two pilot groups during 2005 and before.
Denial that the merger IBB LOA was going to happen
Some folks threatened to leave if it happened, are still here.
Shock that maybe some folks were mislead by their leadership, maybe told what they wanted to hear.
Now we see posts like We're better pilots than you are.
Were you told that too?
Give it up, how petty.
Desperate

 

[gutshotdraw]

And you have missed the point of the discussion entirely...