NJA Upgrade time

[notaNJApilot]

Right, but I'd be interested to know how many FOs upgraded this year and how many FOs were hired. 300 seems to be a realistic number for new hires and I don't think that 300 FOs upgraded this year, but I could be wrong.

 

[Ultra Grump]

By my count, there were 322 PIC slots awarded this year so far, with 181 upgrades. The biggest mover was the XL, with 112 PIC slots awarded and 94 upgrades. FWIW.

 

[TORCH67]

There are so many factors relating to upgrades at NJ. Anyone that can tell you what will happen is guessing or is a psychic! I have a hard time believing that age 60+ pilots are waiting for $16K(13K after taxes) before calling it quits. The ratio of pic to sic has been close to 60/40 give or take a few %. If you add 400 pilots per year then you would see ~ 240 Pic bids minus the aircraft attrition plus pilot attrition. The last upgrades were in the 1600 range recently and would put a new hire with 2500 number upgrading in 3 1/2 years no matter what aircraft. Most if not all of the movement in the larger aircraft(with apu) will be PIC to PIC. It will also take another year or so for the post contract movement to settle down due to bypass FO's upgrading or going back to FO pay. It's good to be optimistic, but don't spend that paycheck before it's in the bank!

 

[Ultra Grump]

Latest awards: XL upgrades went down to #1704 (7/06 hire). Encore went to #1800 (10/04 hire). Sovereign to #1712 (7/06 hire) - that's a shocker!

 

[Guitar Guy]

Latest awards: XL upgrades went down to #1704 (7/06 hire). Encore went to #1800 (10/04 hire). Sovereign to #1712 (7/06 hire) - that's a shocker!

Don't you mean 7/04 hire dates for the junior XL and 680 awards? If not, then I want to know how someone hired last month got ahead of me on the seniority list...:erm:

 

[NJA bound]

So it looks like upgrades are at 1 year and 10 months here currently.

 

[Guitar Guy]

So it looks like upgrades are at 1 year and 10 months here currently.

I'd caution against a potential new-hire thinking that he or she could get hired next month and be a captain before the end of 2008. I had a friend just get on here and I told him before he accepted the job that he'd likely be around 4 years of seniority before upgrading.

Of course, it's all a SWAG but I don't think 22 months to upgrade is good estimate for a new-hire today.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Don't you mean 7/04 hire dates for the junior XL and 680 awards? If not, then I want to know how someone hired last month got ahead of me on the seniority list...:erm:

Yep, I've got '06 on the brain. 2004 is correct. Tried to edit, won't let me.

 

[acaTerry]

Yep, I've got '06 on the brain. 2004 is correct. Tried to edit, won't let me.

You just don't know how. Now go recover one of my Hawker 400 trips! :laugh:

 

[Twotter76]

Actually the revised award shows the Encore going to #1813 (10/04 hire). Amazing how they can never go a month without revising at least one award. Just looked at the delivery schedule (albeit a dated one) and the upgrades should continue for the near future baring any significant changes in our operation.










Edited cuz I cant speel

 

[Ultra Grump]

You just don't know how. Now go recover one of my Hawker 400 trips! :laugh:

It would appear that once someone has posted after me, I can no longer go back and edit my post. If you know how, I'm all ears.

And as for recovering for you - if you only knew...

 

[widespreadpanic]

Just my opinion, with some big announcements at NBAA next month the upgrades should continue.

WP

 

[bailey3083]

*****Hijack*****

I actually enjoy chatting with all the NJA pilots when I am in the FBO's around the country and I am even a Flex guy!


****You may have your thread back******

 

[netjetwife]

Bailey, I should think that most of the frac pilots would enjoy visiting with each other because they share much common ground and can easily identify with one another's experiences. As for NJA pilots, specifically, who better to draw hope and encouragement from than the pilots who have already shown that it is possible to stand up for one's self and win the contract that has been earned through significant contribution to the company's success.

 

[bailey3083]

Bailey, I should think that most of the frac pilots would enjoy visiting with each other because they share much common ground and can easily identify with one another's experiences. As for NJA pilots, specifically, who better to draw hope and encouragement from than the pilots who have already shown that it is possible to stand up for one's self and win the contract that has been earned through significant contribution to the company's success.

Yes it is fun since we have a nice mixture of people from all different backgrounds. I am happy for the NJA guys for getting a good contract but some of us who came from a Union Airline still have a bad taste in our mouths and do not wish for another Union anytime soon.

Bailey

 

[netjetwife]

As the NJ pilots will tell you, a union is a direct reflection of its members. The motivation, work output, and determination to forward its interests--all come straight from the pilots themselves. Like many things in life, you get out of it what you put into it. Each group should be judged on its own characteristics, not the one you belonged to previously.

We all know that many frac pilots are definitely underpaid. That needs to stop. So to all those of you who don't care for unions, I pose this question: What alternative can you offer that will provide the written contract and compensation that is their due by merit of the skills and labor exchange they bring to the table? It's very basic, really. There's strength in numbers. It seems quite clear that only by working together can pilots affect change.

When they are treated like the professionals they are, the pilots can turn their talents to working with their companies, to realize greater profitability and job satisfaction for all employees. From what I've seen and heard, it's managers that prevent that from happening--not the union of the pilots.

 

[CA1900]

Yes it is fun since we have a nice mixture of people from all different backgrounds. I am happy for the NJA guys for getting a good contract but some of us who came from a Union Airline still have a bad taste in our mouths and do not wish for another Union anytime soon.

Well, I guess I've seen the opposite end of things: I'm working for a non-union airline, and we haven't had a pay raise in six years, our health insurance has gone up $1300 a year, we don't have personal days, no duty/trip rigs, scheduling "rules" that change at the whim of the scheduler, etc, etc. So count me as a non-union pilot who's greatly looking forward to flying under a strong contract.

 

[netjetwife]

CA1900, unfortunately I think that your experience is far too common, and what can a handful of pilots do about that on their own? But if they all stand together..... and speak with one loud strong voice....they have a much better chance of getting the message across. To me, that is what a union is all about. You will have a hard time finding an 1108 pilot who would be willing to go back to the way things were before they became a Strong Union. Enjoy your contract!
Best Wishes!
Netjetwife

 

[Fozzy]

Well, I guess I've seen the opposite end of things: I'm working for a non-union airline, and we haven't had a pay raise in six years, our health insurance has gone up $1300 a year, we don't have personal days, no duty/trip rigs, scheduling "rules" that change at the whim of the scheduler, etc, etc. So count me as a non-union pilot who's greatly looking forward to flying under a strong contract.

Did you get an interview yet? I feel for you man, the Terry and Joel show gets real old.

 

[hopalong]

I am seeing my seniority number getting lower and lower pretty fast but what is up with hiring? Anyone know why they've slowed it so much?

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Just got out of recurrent a few weeks ago. Looks like 300ish for 2007 and possibly the same for 2008. There was a new hire class of 37 going on while I was there.

 

[netjetwife]

The training pipeline had been significantly clogged. Perhaps the company realized that it was expensive to pay pilots to sit home and wait for a slot to open up? Maybe they're trying to match hiring rate to training pace? My congratulations to all those recently hired and my best wishes to those in the application process. NJW

 

[cldsfr79]

At NJA I got hired at the beginning of the recent hiring boom 2 years ago, I am still sitting right seat and have another 100+ pilots to go before I can even hold the Ultra/Encore. I'm still about 300-500 pilots away from holding things such as the XL, X, etc. In 5 years it is highly unlikely that I will be holding captain in a Falcon or other larger cabin. I'm thinking by the end of the year I should upgrade, but I can't say how long its going to take the guy 700 pilots below me to upgrade.

 

[jherk02]

Well, the only silver lining I can see in the longer upgrade times is that, after two years, those getting hired now can bid the right seat in the nicest ride out there and not worry too much about costing themselves a Captain slot due to the seat lock.

 

[NJA bound]

At NJA I got hired at the beginning of the recent hiring boom 2 years ago, I am still sitting right seat and have another 100+ pilots to go before I can even hold the Ultra/Encore. I'm still about 300-500 pilots away from holding things such as the XL, X, etc. In 5 years it is highly unlikely that I will be holding captain in a Falcon or other larger cabin. I'm thinking by the end of the year I should upgrade, but I can't say how long its going to take the guy 700 pilots below me to upgrade.

I think you are reading the number of senior bids incorrect, you're 6 months senior to me and I am showing less than 200 from upgrade in either the 560XL, Hawker 800XPC, Soverign or X.

 

[jtf]

While it's nice to see if you are pretty close with the new bid software, it doesn't really reflect where you stand to get the actual bid since so many of the guys who are already a CA don't put in a bid until they are off of seat lock or until they think they can actually hold it. With the differences pay a lot of guys come over to the Excel once their seat lock is up and just put in a bid at the end. The Hawker 800 is already fairly senior and with the 900 comming soon and the differences pay that will probably follow, that one will probably get even more senior. I've been here over a year now and I'm guessing another year and a half if I'm lucky and a lot of guys retire.

I've recently heard the main reason behind the relative slow down in new hires is a lack of sim availability. Maybe training will actually get their act together and fix the bottle necks while they have a little breathing space. We are getting more and more airframes and I won't be suprised if we get fairly short handed later this year- especially if the Hawker 900s really get certified and come on this year and if the Hawker 4000s ever get rolling. At least the massive delays in that program should give enough time for adequate sim construction and then availability once they are ever finnished with the actual airplane. I believe over 80 left last year and this January had 10 or 12 (7 senior to me). I hope attrition heats up a bit more, but I'm not spending money I don't have in anticipation of a quick upgrade.

 

[FLYLOW22]

This company needs to pony up with $$$ for training hardware and resources. Otherwise we won't grow as fast as we need to moving forward.

If we need more sims, have FSI and Co buy them and build them ASAP. We will use them.

 

[cldsfr79]

If we need more sims, have FSI and Co buy them and build them ASAP. We will use them.[/quote]


I completely agree. I think that NJA needs to take control of our training. For the size of the company we are we need to extend our training capabilities in regards to owning our own sims, and conducting in house aircraft training. We also pay top dollar at flight safety; I understand that flight safety is under the same umbrella as our company, and it's like stealing from peter to pay paul. If we really wanted to stream line things and make it a trully professional training environment we would do all the training our self with state of the art equipment.

 

[JustInfo]

No kidding, just had a chance to fly the new Hawker 850 sim, no hydraulics. It flies more like the plane than any sim I have seen. We need more of those!