NJA to NJI

[miles otoole]

I know it stings a little to hear the truth. Don't kid yourself.

Is NJA the largest frac operator? YES
Does NJA create more revenue than any other FRAC? YES
Do the NJA pilots see less of that revenue percentage wise than any other FRAC Pilot group? YES
Is NJA the lowest paid? YES
Are you the only FRAC with a Union? YES
Is the Union new to NJA? NO, been thare an awfully long time
Has Union representation has any positive benefit on the pilot group? NO
Do the NJA pilots sound like broken records when they say, "Well, when we get this new contract........."? YES

You forgot THE most important question that matters to Santulli- Does NJA create more PROFIT than any other frac operator? Nothing else matters. This alone wil be the death knell of NJAs fight. Sorry.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

Mr. Otoole is right. Net Jets creates NO profit. Split the units up, and NJA and NJI both are profitable. The overseas divisions (Europe and the Middle East) are not profitable, and their losses each year are greater than any profit that NJA and NJI makes. Because Netjets is publically traded (it's a division of Berkshire Hathaway), their books are reported as 1 company, which shows a loss. That's too bad, because if their #s were not being dragged down by the overseas units, they might have a chance for a decent raise. At this point, mgnt will just tell them they are not working hard enough to get a raise, because if they were, they'd be profitable. It's a Sh!tty deal, I know, but it's the only one they got!

You forgot THE most important question that matters to Santulli- Does NJA create more PROFIT than any other frac operator? Nothing else matters. This alone wil be the death knell of NJAs fight. Sorry.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

My colleague wrote:



“Nji is definitely the place to be. Non union, happy, and contented. Best thing to ever happen to me was being hired here. Period.”



I can certainly take the same position here. I've never been happier flying an airplane. NJI pilots are the best in this business and I’m extremely proud to be associated with my company. That said, I certainly hope nothing but the best for the NJA pilots, but I don’t have a direct interest in the bargaining agenda there. And any attempt to use my position or company as a bargaining chip to further gains at NJA will prove futile in my opinion.

 

[CatYaaak]

When a business model's success depends substantially on low-wages, and thousands of pilots vote "Yes" to those wages by accepting jobs working within that model, no union will later be able to significantly change the force or fact of this low-wage dependency.

Once upon a time NetJets was considered a PFT suck-it-up-financially, jet time-building stepping stone to a lucrative job at the majors when they were hiring in record numbers. That the frac-to-major route has suddenly shut down doesn't change anything about the frac business model, only the expectations and realization of harsh realities of those working within it, and the labor market is flooded.

The moral of the story should be obvious; don't take a job that sucks, know the business you work in and don't pretend it's something it's not, and don't believe the promises of those lacking foresight who did, even if there's a lot of 'em.

 

[flyfish]

And,

Once upon a time Fedex was considered a low paying, fly by night, DA-20 flying, time building job as well. I know a pilot that was there. He is now reaping the rewards of his foresight and the ever increasing capacity of the business model.

 

[h25b]

When a business model's success depends substantially on low-wages, and thousands of pilots vote "Yes" to those wages by accepting jobs working within that model, no union will later be able to significantly change the force or fact of this low-wage dependency.

Once upon a time NetJets was considered a PFT suck-it-up-financially, jet time-building stepping stone to a lucrative job at the majors when they were hiring in record numbers. That the frac-to-major route has suddenly shut down doesn't change anything about the frac business model, only the expectations and realization of harsh realities of those working within it, and the labor market is flooded.

The moral of the story should be obvious; don't take a job that sucks, know the business you work in and don't pretend it's something it's not, and don't believe the promises of those lacking foresight who did, even if there's a lot of 'em.

Unfortunately that's the grim reality... I think that at least in the NetJet's business model, their bread and butter (as far as profit goes) was in selling shares. That is where their money is. Well, now they need to figure out how to make money operating these aircraft. This is where the news flash takes place.

IT'S REALLY HARD TO MAKE MONEY OPERATING BUSINESS AIRCRAFT !!! ASK ANY CHARTER OPERATOR...

Right now they are just treading water at this under the current labor agreement and crapping their pants figuring out how to do it under another agreement.

 

[h25b]

And,

Once upon a time Fedex was considered a low paying, fly by night, DA-20 flying, time building job as well. I know a pilot that was there. He is now reaping the rewards of his foresight and the ever increasing capacity of the business model.

YOUR ARE JOKING RIGHT, PLEASE TELL ME THIS WAS SARCASM...

Kinda of apples and oranges isn't it... FedEx offers a service that almost every person in the world will need at one point or the other. Fast, reliable, expedited package/freight service. Now you tell me what percentage of the U.S./World population will need (and can afford) a private jet...

Get a clue man. PLEASE...

 

[CatYaaak]

And,

Once upon a time Fedex was considered a low paying, fly by night, DA-20 flying, time building job as well. I know a pilot that was there. He is now reaping the rewards of his foresight and the ever increasing capacity of the business model.

FedEx basically invented and made workable overnight package delivery service. Competition of that service followed, and people depend and plan on it now.

NetJets, on the other hand, did NOT invent flying businesspeople and/or wealthy individuals around in corporate jets when and where they choose. They just invented a model that made it slightly more economical for a niche market (dependent on hours flown per year) carved from within that larger group, promising tax breaks, ease of budgeting, combined with relatively few hassles.

Make it more expensive and increase the hassles, and a large portion of the current niche will bolt to another frac, resume chartering, or buy their own aircraft. Once again, you don't operate in a vacumn.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Caat,

I am ready to test your theory and Shut the place down if you are right.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

At the time with they opened, Fedex offered a service that most business needed for effieiency, whether they knew it or not. Fedex was cutting edge, innovative, and isolated with their thinking. What is special about Fedex is that they can do something most companies cannot. Netjets does somethign that any comapny with enough coin can. It's all about volume. Lots of people don't know, but Fred Smith started Fedex as a college research paper, and got a "D" on it, just because the professor did not want to flunk him for his "dumb" idea.

Netjets had that same chance in the early 80s when they 1st got under way, but they did not market the concept hard enough until the 90s, and by that time, the niche that they had was gone due to competition. They also do not offer a service that most people can use econimically. They can only market to a special segment of the population, very limited at that, with a signifigant net worth. They have let too much competition into the market place, and it's just too late. In both cases, time really is money, except Fedex delivers for a lot less than Netjets.

And,

Once upon a time Fedex was considered a low paying, fly by night, DA-20 flying, time building job as well. I know a pilot that was there. He is now reaping the rewards of his foresight and the ever increasing capacity of the business model.

 

[flyfish]

Thanks boys for your disortations on Fedex operations. As a former employee of Fedex and former F-27 pilot for one of their feeders I am intimately aware of the operation. You missed my point. I was drawing a parallel between two companies that went from rags to riches. Starting a concept that no-one believed could be profitable. I am still here because I firmly believe in this concept and it's potential. Netjets is doing very well, I just hope they don't blow it by continuing to disrespect their front line.

 

[Fozzy]

"Gunfyter, I hope you are right. How did you arrive at your conclusion? And if you are correct, why is common carrier status so important to the union? To the pilots? I can't figure it out"


G4 I will give you one reason of many. We want your Union Dues.

I look foward to seeing you all wearing the UGLY yellow tie. It is coming, so get used to the idea.

 

[GEXDriver]

G4 ... I look foward to seeing you all wearing the UGLY yellow tie. It is coming, so get used to the idea.

Extremely unlikely. This kind of thinking is what occurs when you involve the Wish Fairy in your career planning.

Everyone should keep in mind that you had equal opportunity to apply at NJI when you took that job at NJA. Oh, wait! You weren't and still aren't qualified to go to work at NJI or you would apply now. But, rather than try to get that Gulfstream job through merit, ability and paying your dues, you want to steal it from other pilots through union thuggery and chicanery. That's dispicable behaviour. Unless your moral compass is completely adrift, you should be ashamed of yourself. Face it - the guys at NJI made a better deal than you did with Santulli because they were better qualified and could demand it.

I fully support your effort to improve your lot at NJA, that will have a positive impact on the industry if you are successful and will reverse the trend of diminishing compensation throughout non-corporate aviation. I just don't see how you can sleep at night if you have to do it on the backs of other pilots who definitely don't want what you have to offer.

I fly out of the same airport as your BBJ base and know many of their pilots - both the majority that supported the TA and the others who did not . I find it interesting that even though those guys have made their own (much better) deal with management and have spilt off into their own company (check the SEC Registry), you guys aren't complaining about their organization.

GEX

 

[Gulfstream 200]

When a business model's success depends substantially on low-wages, and thousands of pilots vote "Yes" to those wages by accepting jobs working within that model, no union will later be able to significantly change the force or fact of this low-wage dependency.

Once upon a time NetJets was considered a PFT suck-it-up-financially, jet time-building stepping stone to a lucrative job at the majors when they were hiring in record numbers. That the frac-to-major route has suddenly shut down doesn't change anything about the frac business model, only the expectations and realization of harsh realities of those working within it, and the labor market is flooded.

The moral of the story should be obvious; don't take a job that sucks, know the business you work in and don't pretend it's something it's not, and don't believe the promises of those lacking foresight who did, even if there's a lot of 'em.

cat's pretty much dead on here folks. Read it and re-read it.

Every new hire you have had for the last 10+ years has voted NO for a pay
raise - by saying yes to a horribly underpaid position.

I dont understand the strike talk? what are you going to strike? they arent taking anything away from you - you never even had it. Nobody is outsourcing you - you all volunteered!

 

[old*art]

GEXDriver - NJI was started for one reason only - so NJA union pilots would not be flying the airplanes. As I understand it the salaries at NJI are not exactly up to par in the Gulfstream world either - so it was a case of the experienced Gulfstream pilots they got doing the same as NJA pilots had done in the past - take an inferior Gulfstream pay job. As long as we are on the subject of experience - the pilots of whom I have first hand knowlege who have been hired at NJI are NOT highly experienced Gulfstream pilots. As a matter of fact - neither had any Gulfstream time at all. One came from NJA and did not have an impressive amount of time but knew the right people. The other was a retired USAF single seat fighter jock - never flown a pax trip in his life before going to NJI, but again knew the right people. What sticks in the craw at NJA is when the powers that be are asked for 7/7 schedules for more crews, it is rejected as not productive enough but then it is given to NJI. When asked for fly from home, it is rejected as not practical, but given to NJI. When the company toys with the idea of RCAs for NJA, it is not practical to do it to NJI. I would make the argument that the pilots who took the jobs at NJI were a bit naive in the world of labor relations if they thought the pilots of NJA would tolerate being treated like red headed step children and then sit idly by and have their faces rubbed in it while the pilots of NJI are treated better when there is legal relief to stop it. If nothing but highly qualifed Gulfstream pilots were being hired at NJI I would accept your argument, but from what I understand it is also the lowest paid job in the industry for the work done and the aircraft flown. Please correct me if I am wrong.