NJA to NJI

[h25b]

When a business model's success depends substantially on low-wages, and thousands of pilots vote "Yes" to those wages by accepting jobs working within that model, no union will later be able to significantly change the force or fact of this low-wage dependency.

Once upon a time NetJets was considered a PFT suck-it-up-financially, jet time-building stepping stone to a lucrative job at the majors when they were hiring in record numbers. That the frac-to-major route has suddenly shut down doesn't change anything about the frac business model, only the expectations and realization of harsh realities of those working within it, and the labor market is flooded.

The moral of the story should be obvious; don't take a job that sucks, know the business you work in and don't pretend it's something it's not, and don't believe the promises of those lacking foresight who did, even if there's a lot of 'em.

Unfortunately that's the grim reality... I think that at least in the NetJet's business model, their bread and butter (as far as profit goes) was in selling shares. That is where their money is. Well, now they need to figure out how to make money operating these aircraft. This is where the news flash takes place.

IT'S REALLY HARD TO MAKE MONEY OPERATING BUSINESS AIRCRAFT !!! ASK ANY CHARTER OPERATOR...

Right now they are just treading water at this under the current labor agreement and crapping their pants figuring out how to do it under another agreement.

 

[h25b]

And,

Once upon a time Fedex was considered a low paying, fly by night, DA-20 flying, time building job as well. I know a pilot that was there. He is now reaping the rewards of his foresight and the ever increasing capacity of the business model.

YOUR ARE JOKING RIGHT, PLEASE TELL ME THIS WAS SARCASM...

Kinda of apples and oranges isn't it... FedEx offers a service that almost every person in the world will need at one point or the other. Fast, reliable, expedited package/freight service. Now you tell me what percentage of the U.S./World population will need (and can afford) a private jet...

Get a clue man. PLEASE...

 

[CatYaaak]

And,

Once upon a time Fedex was considered a low paying, fly by night, DA-20 flying, time building job as well. I know a pilot that was there. He is now reaping the rewards of his foresight and the ever increasing capacity of the business model.

FedEx basically invented and made workable overnight package delivery service. Competition of that service followed, and people depend and plan on it now.

NetJets, on the other hand, did NOT invent flying businesspeople and/or wealthy individuals around in corporate jets when and where they choose. They just invented a model that made it slightly more economical for a niche market (dependent on hours flown per year) carved from within that larger group, promising tax breaks, ease of budgeting, combined with relatively few hassles.

Make it more expensive and increase the hassles, and a large portion of the current niche will bolt to another frac, resume chartering, or buy their own aircraft. Once again, you don't operate in a vacumn.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Caat,

I am ready to test your theory and Shut the place down if you are right.

 

[757BBJ_Capt]

At the time with they opened, Fedex offered a service that most business needed for effieiency, whether they knew it or not. Fedex was cutting edge, innovative, and isolated with their thinking. What is special about Fedex is that they can do something most companies cannot. Netjets does somethign that any comapny with enough coin can. It's all about volume. Lots of people don't know, but Fred Smith started Fedex as a college research paper, and got a "D" on it, just because the professor did not want to flunk him for his "dumb" idea.

Netjets had that same chance in the early 80s when they 1st got under way, but they did not market the concept hard enough until the 90s, and by that time, the niche that they had was gone due to competition. They also do not offer a service that most people can use econimically. They can only market to a special segment of the population, very limited at that, with a signifigant net worth. They have let too much competition into the market place, and it's just too late. In both cases, time really is money, except Fedex delivers for a lot less than Netjets.

And,

Once upon a time Fedex was considered a low paying, fly by night, DA-20 flying, time building job as well. I know a pilot that was there. He is now reaping the rewards of his foresight and the ever increasing capacity of the business model.

 

[flyfish]

Thanks boys for your disortations on Fedex operations. As a former employee of Fedex and former F-27 pilot for one of their feeders I am intimately aware of the operation. You missed my point. I was drawing a parallel between two companies that went from rags to riches. Starting a concept that no-one believed could be profitable. I am still here because I firmly believe in this concept and it's potential. Netjets is doing very well, I just hope they don't blow it by continuing to disrespect their front line.

 

[Fozzy]

"Gunfyter, I hope you are right. How did you arrive at your conclusion? And if you are correct, why is common carrier status so important to the union? To the pilots? I can't figure it out"


G4 I will give you one reason of many. We want your Union Dues.

I look foward to seeing you all wearing the UGLY yellow tie. It is coming, so get used to the idea.

 

[GEXDriver]

G4 ... I look foward to seeing you all wearing the UGLY yellow tie. It is coming, so get used to the idea.

Extremely unlikely. This kind of thinking is what occurs when you involve the Wish Fairy in your career planning.

Everyone should keep in mind that you had equal opportunity to apply at NJI when you took that job at NJA. Oh, wait! You weren't and still aren't qualified to go to work at NJI or you would apply now. But, rather than try to get that Gulfstream job through merit, ability and paying your dues, you want to steal it from other pilots through union thuggery and chicanery. That's dispicable behaviour. Unless your moral compass is completely adrift, you should be ashamed of yourself. Face it - the guys at NJI made a better deal than you did with Santulli because they were better qualified and could demand it.

I fully support your effort to improve your lot at NJA, that will have a positive impact on the industry if you are successful and will reverse the trend of diminishing compensation throughout non-corporate aviation. I just don't see how you can sleep at night if you have to do it on the backs of other pilots who definitely don't want what you have to offer.

I fly out of the same airport as your BBJ base and know many of their pilots - both the majority that supported the TA and the others who did not . I find it interesting that even though those guys have made their own (much better) deal with management and have spilt off into their own company (check the SEC Registry), you guys aren't complaining about their organization.

GEX

 

[Gulfstream 200]

When a business model's success depends substantially on low-wages, and thousands of pilots vote "Yes" to those wages by accepting jobs working within that model, no union will later be able to significantly change the force or fact of this low-wage dependency.

Once upon a time NetJets was considered a PFT suck-it-up-financially, jet time-building stepping stone to a lucrative job at the majors when they were hiring in record numbers. That the frac-to-major route has suddenly shut down doesn't change anything about the frac business model, only the expectations and realization of harsh realities of those working within it, and the labor market is flooded.

The moral of the story should be obvious; don't take a job that sucks, know the business you work in and don't pretend it's something it's not, and don't believe the promises of those lacking foresight who did, even if there's a lot of 'em.

cat's pretty much dead on here folks. Read it and re-read it.

Every new hire you have had for the last 10+ years has voted NO for a pay
raise - by saying yes to a horribly underpaid position.

I dont understand the strike talk? what are you going to strike? they arent taking anything away from you - you never even had it. Nobody is outsourcing you - you all volunteered!

 

[old*art]

GEXDriver - NJI was started for one reason only - so NJA union pilots would not be flying the airplanes. As I understand it the salaries at NJI are not exactly up to par in the Gulfstream world either - so it was a case of the experienced Gulfstream pilots they got doing the same as NJA pilots had done in the past - take an inferior Gulfstream pay job. As long as we are on the subject of experience - the pilots of whom I have first hand knowlege who have been hired at NJI are NOT highly experienced Gulfstream pilots. As a matter of fact - neither had any Gulfstream time at all. One came from NJA and did not have an impressive amount of time but knew the right people. The other was a retired USAF single seat fighter jock - never flown a pax trip in his life before going to NJI, but again knew the right people. What sticks in the craw at NJA is when the powers that be are asked for 7/7 schedules for more crews, it is rejected as not productive enough but then it is given to NJI. When asked for fly from home, it is rejected as not practical, but given to NJI. When the company toys with the idea of RCAs for NJA, it is not practical to do it to NJI. I would make the argument that the pilots who took the jobs at NJI were a bit naive in the world of labor relations if they thought the pilots of NJA would tolerate being treated like red headed step children and then sit idly by and have their faces rubbed in it while the pilots of NJI are treated better when there is legal relief to stop it. If nothing but highly qualifed Gulfstream pilots were being hired at NJI I would accept your argument, but from what I understand it is also the lowest paid job in the industry for the work done and the aircraft flown. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[TCA]

7 & 7

7 & 7 was and is available to a limited number of crews. I think that it is less than 50 %. Thats my perception and please do not quote the number.

If you look at the salary in a vacumm, it is well below the standard. (not sure who's standard)

There are more important things than the money. If you will search my previous posts; you my uncover some the more important reasons that crews come to work at NJI.

Once again don't quote the numbers, but nearly 50% of the NJI pilots are previous Gulfstream folks. Those numbers have been decreasing over the past 4 years.

"Still Climbing"
TCA

 

[Live4flyng]

There are more important things than the money.

OH really? Like what? Flying famous people? Or maybe it's the crew meals. Possibly the less than 50% 7&7 lines you "think" are a available to most crews? You forgot to mention the fly from home. Please don't bring up the seat grab argument either, NJA was around long before NJI was formed to spit in the their faces! Old*art is right, NJI was started in spite of NJA and not for the old "experience" theory since "nearly 50% of the NJI pilots are previous Gulfstream folks." It's a good old boy system at NJI, all about who you know.

Should NETEJTS should form a new company when a new type of airplane is delivered? The CE680 was just delivered not long ago, not much experience in that plane.

 

[old*art]

"There are more important things than the money."

TCA you are correct. I came to NJA because I did not know anyone at NJI and - quite frankly - have had my fill of 6-8 hour legs and international flying. The reasons for coming to NJA were simple - well funded with Buffett, I gained senority extremely fast, flying new airlplanes, and this is the type flying I truly enjoy. I waited for them to open my hometown so fly from home has never been an issue for me other than wanting the same for the other pilots. I was betting on the pay getting better and with the group we have driving the boat now I am reservedly confident that will happen. With 91k having solved the duty/rest issues, pay is about all that is left where I am dissatisfied. By the way - I did not see anything in your post that contradicted anything in my earlier one.

 

[GVFlyer]

Please don't bring up the seat grab argument either, NJA was around long before NJI was formed to spit in the their faces! Old*art is right, NJI was started in spite of NJA and not for the old "experience" theory since "nearly 50% of the NJI pilots are previous Gulfstream folks." It's a good old boy system at NJI, all about who you know.

I have to get involved here, just to keep the facts straight.

The time is January 1995. NJA (EJA at that time) was known for it's low pay and history of hiring turbo-prop regional pilots into jets (at least that was our conception at Gulfstream). These pilots were willing to accept the work rules, duty periods, gateways and poor compensation their union had negotiated for them in return for jet time. They were flying mostly Citation IIs.

Richard Santulli approached Teddy Forstman, the then current owner of Gulfstream saying he would like to start an international operations company using Gulfstreams. Forstman handed the deal to Bill Boisture, then President of Gulfstream, to make happen.

The initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstman and Santulli are too much alike to work together easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli and Executive Jet were unable to capitilize them at that time (Richard had not yet sold his company to Warren Buffet so there was not a lot of cash on hand). In order for Gulfstream to provide these aircraft and be part of the deal, it was agreed that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture because safety was to be a key marketing point and NJI buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified, internationally experienced Gulfstream pilots. Gulfstream did not want unqualified or marginally qualified pilots flying their aircraft and their $100 million investment in NJI postioned them to demand this requirement.

It was originally determined that only pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours in Gulfstreams would be hired. To draw the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry standard (and still are).

Compensation for current hire NJI pilots is 50% percentile NBAA. The Captains who have been there for 10 years do considerably better.

As NJI has matured their hiring policies have changed. The initial cadre were all Gulfstream captains. Now, they hire First Officers and while prior Gulfstream experience is still a written requirement these pilots are hard to find. Gulfstream Flight Ops has experienced the same problem finding qualified Gulfstream pilots. At Gulfstream, the first of three hiring category priorities is for "Experienced Gulfstream Pilots", but recenty some non-Gulfstream qualified category two "Experienced Transport Pilots" have been hired.

The first EJI office was in the Gulfstream Customer lounge. Rick Schwartz, Ray Roberts and Peter Hanchak interviewed pilots while Joe Murphy, the present NJI President, shuttled between Savannah and Montvale hammering out compensation, homebasing, organization, workrules and duty periods.

Presently, maintenance, joint marketing and sales relationships exist between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

NJI is an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations chartered in South Carolina, a "Right to Work" state. It will be interesting to see how the International Brotherhood of Teamster's single carrier suit plays out.

We had a couple of 1/8th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as an NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and know many of the line pilots (some of whom I flew with at Andrews AFB) very well. I also know the Okatie leadership group from Gulfstream's efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of NJI and it is my observation that NJI pilots are a very happy pilot group with the company that they built - just as it is.

Should NETEJTS should form a new company when a new type of airplane is delivered? The CE680 was just delivered not long ago, not much experience in that plane.

It's not quite the same thing - there's plenty of Cessna experience at NJA. Besides - Cessna doesn't care who flys their aircraft.

GV






~

 

[old*art]

I know for a FACT a single seat fighter jock with no transport or pax experience was hired about four years ago. I have no problem with "who you know" - its what makes the world go 'round.

 

[Diesel]

Now if you want to hear the other side of the story ask a NJA guy what happened.

Sorry it's not as clear as that and gulfstream and RTS don't come out smelling like roses.

Also ever notice that Gulfstream is non union. No union pilots will fly gulfstream aircraft or the deal didn't go through.

RTS used the Gulfstreams as a carrot to the pilots or they got the stick.

i'll pm bizjet737 who was actually involved when the crap went down.

GVflyer would like to have you think it's all simple and easy but it isn't.

 

[Live4flyng]

Thanks for your history lesson GV.

Richard Santulli approached Teddy Forstman, the then current owner of Gulfstream saying he would like to start an international operations company using Gulfstreams. Forstman handed the deal to Bill Boisture, then President of Gulfstream, to make happen.

RTS approched the union at EJA and was unwilling to negotiate the terms for operating these new airplanes, resulting in the formation of EJI.

It was originally determined that only pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours in Gulfstreams would be hired.

Why would there be more qualified Gulfstream pilots in 1995 than there are today? You even said yourself that qualified pilots are hard to find today. As far as the Cessna comment about not caring who flies their airplanes, the same thing can be said for Gulfstream. We both know it's all about money, anyone with cash can buy an airplane and hire anyone they want to fly it.

NJI is an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations chartered in South Carolina, a "Right to Work" state. It will be interesting to see how the International Brotherhood of Teamster's single carrier suit plays out.

Nice try, but we know better. NJI was dispatched out of CMH less than a year ago. Netjets may have seen the writing on the wall with the single carrier suit and decided to move the operation out of CMH to try and prove it is a separate company. There are hundreds of supply lockers and store rooms around the country that NJI and NJA have access to. We carry the same pagers and blackberries, stay at the same (union rate negotiated hotels), receive the same discounted contract fuel rates at FBOs and fly the exact same owners. Not very autonomous sounding to me.

It's not quite the same thing - there's plenty of Cessna experience at NJA. Besides - Cessna doesn't care who flys their aircraft.

Oh it is quite the same thing. NJA operates the Gulfstream 200 and soon the G-150, I'm surprised they allowed that. Maybe Gulfstream doesn't really care who flies their aircraft afterall.

 

[Diesel]

Oh it is quite the same thing. NJA operates the Gulfstream 200 and soon the G-150, I'm surprised they allowed that. Maybe Gulfstream doesn't really care who flies their aircraft afterall.

It's because our scope clause with the company. NJI may only operate G4 or a derivative thereof. GV is one of those.

They can't operate a G200 or G150 because of the clause.

 

[GVFlyer]

Now if you want to hear the other side of the story ask a NJA guy what happened.

Sorry it's not as clear as that and gulfstream and RTS don't come out smelling like roses.

Also ever notice that Gulfstream is non union. No union pilots will fly gulfstream aircraft or the deal didn't go through.

RTS used the Gulfstreams as a carrot to the pilots or they got the stick.

i'll pm bizjet737 who was actually involved when the crap went down.

GVflyer would like to have you think it's all simple and easy but it isn't.

It is pretty simple, Diesel; everything I stated is a verifiable fact as opposed to the opinions that are rampant here.

Gulfstream employees are definitely non-union. The pilots are considered management and qualify for executive compensation. The "good-ole-boys" that do the touch labor on the factory floor "don't much cotten" to unions and run union organizers off every time they try to get a union on the premises. It is for the quality of labor of this work force that Gulfstream moved from Bethpage, NJ to Savannah.

Although I value Bizjet737's opinion, it is just that - a worker bee's perspective who would not have had access to the inner workings at Montvale just as you don't have access to the machinations at Woodbridge.

GV





~

 

[bizjet737]

it's very simple. gulfstream didn't want union pilots flying it's planes. nothing more, nothing less. we'll see what comes around with the single-carrier lawsuit.