NJA to NJI

[TCA]

7 & 7

7 & 7 was and is available to a limited number of crews. I think that it is less than 50 %. Thats my perception and please do not quote the number.

If you look at the salary in a vacumm, it is well below the standard. (not sure who's standard)

There are more important things than the money. If you will search my previous posts; you my uncover some the more important reasons that crews come to work at NJI.

Once again don't quote the numbers, but nearly 50% of the NJI pilots are previous Gulfstream folks. Those numbers have been decreasing over the past 4 years.

"Still Climbing"
TCA

 

[Live4flyng]

There are more important things than the money.

OH really? Like what? Flying famous people? Or maybe it's the crew meals. Possibly the less than 50% 7&7 lines you "think" are a available to most crews? You forgot to mention the fly from home. Please don't bring up the seat grab argument either, NJA was around long before NJI was formed to spit in the their faces! Old*art is right, NJI was started in spite of NJA and not for the old "experience" theory since "nearly 50% of the NJI pilots are previous Gulfstream folks." It's a good old boy system at NJI, all about who you know.

Should NETEJTS should form a new company when a new type of airplane is delivered? The CE680 was just delivered not long ago, not much experience in that plane.

 

[old*art]

"There are more important things than the money."

TCA you are correct. I came to NJA because I did not know anyone at NJI and - quite frankly - have had my fill of 6-8 hour legs and international flying. The reasons for coming to NJA were simple - well funded with Buffett, I gained senority extremely fast, flying new airlplanes, and this is the type flying I truly enjoy. I waited for them to open my hometown so fly from home has never been an issue for me other than wanting the same for the other pilots. I was betting on the pay getting better and with the group we have driving the boat now I am reservedly confident that will happen. With 91k having solved the duty/rest issues, pay is about all that is left where I am dissatisfied. By the way - I did not see anything in your post that contradicted anything in my earlier one.

 

[GVFlyer]

Please don't bring up the seat grab argument either, NJA was around long before NJI was formed to spit in the their faces! Old*art is right, NJI was started in spite of NJA and not for the old "experience" theory since "nearly 50% of the NJI pilots are previous Gulfstream folks." It's a good old boy system at NJI, all about who you know.

I have to get involved here, just to keep the facts straight.

The time is January 1995. NJA (EJA at that time) was known for it's low pay and history of hiring turbo-prop regional pilots into jets (at least that was our conception at Gulfstream). These pilots were willing to accept the work rules, duty periods, gateways and poor compensation their union had negotiated for them in return for jet time. They were flying mostly Citation IIs.

Richard Santulli approached Teddy Forstman, the then current owner of Gulfstream saying he would like to start an international operations company using Gulfstreams. Forstman handed the deal to Bill Boisture, then President of Gulfstream, to make happen.

The initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstman and Santulli are too much alike to work together easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli and Executive Jet were unable to capitilize them at that time (Richard had not yet sold his company to Warren Buffet so there was not a lot of cash on hand). In order for Gulfstream to provide these aircraft and be part of the deal, it was agreed that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture because safety was to be a key marketing point and NJI buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified, internationally experienced Gulfstream pilots. Gulfstream did not want unqualified or marginally qualified pilots flying their aircraft and their $100 million investment in NJI postioned them to demand this requirement.

It was originally determined that only pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours in Gulfstreams would be hired. To draw the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry standard (and still are).

Compensation for current hire NJI pilots is 50% percentile NBAA. The Captains who have been there for 10 years do considerably better.

As NJI has matured their hiring policies have changed. The initial cadre were all Gulfstream captains. Now, they hire First Officers and while prior Gulfstream experience is still a written requirement these pilots are hard to find. Gulfstream Flight Ops has experienced the same problem finding qualified Gulfstream pilots. At Gulfstream, the first of three hiring category priorities is for "Experienced Gulfstream Pilots", but recenty some non-Gulfstream qualified category two "Experienced Transport Pilots" have been hired.

The first EJI office was in the Gulfstream Customer lounge. Rick Schwartz, Ray Roberts and Peter Hanchak interviewed pilots while Joe Murphy, the present NJI President, shuttled between Savannah and Montvale hammering out compensation, homebasing, organization, workrules and duty periods.

Presently, maintenance, joint marketing and sales relationships exist between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

NJI is an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations chartered in South Carolina, a "Right to Work" state. It will be interesting to see how the International Brotherhood of Teamster's single carrier suit plays out.

We had a couple of 1/8th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as an NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and know many of the line pilots (some of whom I flew with at Andrews AFB) very well. I also know the Okatie leadership group from Gulfstream's efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of NJI and it is my observation that NJI pilots are a very happy pilot group with the company that they built - just as it is.

Should NETEJTS should form a new company when a new type of airplane is delivered? The CE680 was just delivered not long ago, not much experience in that plane.

It's not quite the same thing - there's plenty of Cessna experience at NJA. Besides - Cessna doesn't care who flys their aircraft.

GV






~

 

[old*art]

I know for a FACT a single seat fighter jock with no transport or pax experience was hired about four years ago. I have no problem with "who you know" - its what makes the world go 'round.

 

[Diesel]

Now if you want to hear the other side of the story ask a NJA guy what happened.

Sorry it's not as clear as that and gulfstream and RTS don't come out smelling like roses.

Also ever notice that Gulfstream is non union. No union pilots will fly gulfstream aircraft or the deal didn't go through.

RTS used the Gulfstreams as a carrot to the pilots or they got the stick.

i'll pm bizjet737 who was actually involved when the crap went down.

GVflyer would like to have you think it's all simple and easy but it isn't.

 

[Live4flyng]

Thanks for your history lesson GV.

Richard Santulli approached Teddy Forstman, the then current owner of Gulfstream saying he would like to start an international operations company using Gulfstreams. Forstman handed the deal to Bill Boisture, then President of Gulfstream, to make happen.

RTS approched the union at EJA and was unwilling to negotiate the terms for operating these new airplanes, resulting in the formation of EJI.

It was originally determined that only pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours in Gulfstreams would be hired.

Why would there be more qualified Gulfstream pilots in 1995 than there are today? You even said yourself that qualified pilots are hard to find today. As far as the Cessna comment about not caring who flies their airplanes, the same thing can be said for Gulfstream. We both know it's all about money, anyone with cash can buy an airplane and hire anyone they want to fly it.

NJI is an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations chartered in South Carolina, a "Right to Work" state. It will be interesting to see how the International Brotherhood of Teamster's single carrier suit plays out.

Nice try, but we know better. NJI was dispatched out of CMH less than a year ago. Netjets may have seen the writing on the wall with the single carrier suit and decided to move the operation out of CMH to try and prove it is a separate company. There are hundreds of supply lockers and store rooms around the country that NJI and NJA have access to. We carry the same pagers and blackberries, stay at the same (union rate negotiated hotels), receive the same discounted contract fuel rates at FBOs and fly the exact same owners. Not very autonomous sounding to me.

It's not quite the same thing - there's plenty of Cessna experience at NJA. Besides - Cessna doesn't care who flys their aircraft.

Oh it is quite the same thing. NJA operates the Gulfstream 200 and soon the G-150, I'm surprised they allowed that. Maybe Gulfstream doesn't really care who flies their aircraft afterall.

 

[Diesel]

Oh it is quite the same thing. NJA operates the Gulfstream 200 and soon the G-150, I'm surprised they allowed that. Maybe Gulfstream doesn't really care who flies their aircraft afterall.

It's because our scope clause with the company. NJI may only operate G4 or a derivative thereof. GV is one of those.

They can't operate a G200 or G150 because of the clause.

 

[GVFlyer]

Now if you want to hear the other side of the story ask a NJA guy what happened.

Sorry it's not as clear as that and gulfstream and RTS don't come out smelling like roses.

Also ever notice that Gulfstream is non union. No union pilots will fly gulfstream aircraft or the deal didn't go through.

RTS used the Gulfstreams as a carrot to the pilots or they got the stick.

i'll pm bizjet737 who was actually involved when the crap went down.

GVflyer would like to have you think it's all simple and easy but it isn't.

It is pretty simple, Diesel; everything I stated is a verifiable fact as opposed to the opinions that are rampant here.

Gulfstream employees are definitely non-union. The pilots are considered management and qualify for executive compensation. The "good-ole-boys" that do the touch labor on the factory floor "don't much cotten" to unions and run union organizers off every time they try to get a union on the premises. It is for the quality of labor of this work force that Gulfstream moved from Bethpage, NJ to Savannah.

Although I value Bizjet737's opinion, it is just that - a worker bee's perspective who would not have had access to the inner workings at Montvale just as you don't have access to the machinations at Woodbridge.

GV





~

 

[bizjet737]

it's very simple. gulfstream didn't want union pilots flying it's planes. nothing more, nothing less. we'll see what comes around with the single-carrier lawsuit.

 

[Diesel]

GV-

If your going post just facts make sure you include all the facts. Tv networks do the same thing but they seem to put their own spin on it just like the rest of us.

D

 

[h25b]

GV-

If your going post just facts make sure you include all the facts. Tv networks do the same thing but they seem to put their own spin on it just like the rest of us.

D

For goodness sakes lets not have anyone post fact. That would be a crime...



GVFlyer,

The truth is a useless pursuit on this forum... RUN away, just RUN away...

You're a good man for trying though.

 

[AA717driver]

Today, I drove past AC #5071, a green G550 sitting on the back lot at SAV. Most people flying 550's make pretty good money.

While there are a whole lot more gulfstreams out there today than in the past, the pay has gone up to the point that many of us who would like to work at NJI aren't willing to take the pay cut to start there.

There are a couple of NJI guys in my class and they knew what they were getting into--being non union and didn't even apply to NJA. Different animal.

I hope gunfyter is right about the future of an integrated list. But, I have no faith in human nature and fully expect any integration of the two groups to turn into a staple job with a subsequent flush.TC

 

[old*art]

"GVFlyer,

The truth is a useless pursuit on this forum... RUN away, just RUN away...

You're a good man for trying though"

I would tend to agree with you in most discussions I have seen on this board - but in this case it displays a lack of knowlege of the complexity of this situation. Santulli would never have been able to put the deal together with Gulfstream if he had not already had a modestly successful fractional operation at NJA. And where do you think Santulli's seed money for EJI was found ? Same for NJE. Low paid NJA pilots.

 

[CatYaaak]

it's very simple. gulfstream didn't want union pilots flying it's planes. nothing more, nothing less. we'll see what comes around with the single-carrier lawsuit.

It's very simple bizjet737. GVflyer is right on in his summary of EJI's inception, why only experienced Gulfstream pilots were recruited during those early years, and who was involved. Revisionist, pro-union historians like yourself try and create an impression among those that weren't there... that it was some kind of whipsawing tactic...forget the obvious; EJI pilots were hired making MORE than EJA union rates.

I'm sure Santulli and co. would've loved to have extrapolated, and locked in your union-rates for Gulfstream seats. What would that be...Captains making about 45K a year?...F/Os starting at 30K? The saddest thing is, you all would have done it and claimed it was "righteous" by virtue of being collectively-bargained. 'Scuse me while I puke. If anything, the EJA cadre's excruciatingly low wages had a depressing effect on what should have been higher Gulfstream pay.

Gulfstream made the requirement for experienced Gulfstream crews, EJA didn't have any. We all know why EJA didn't have any. and it's as simple as that.

 

[Diesel]

hey catyaak you don't work here, you don't work for nji so why don't you mind your own buisness. You don't know anything about what we do on the road and the history.

Mind your own fing buisness

 

[ce750drvr]

Extremely unlikely. This kind of thinking is what occurs when you involve the Wish Fairy in your career planning.

Everyone should keep in mind that you had equal opportunity to apply at NJI when you took that job at NJA. Oh, wait! You weren't and still aren't qualified to go to work at NJI or you would apply now. But, rather than try to get that Gulfstream job through merit, ability and paying your dues, you want to steal it from other pilots through union thuggery and chicanery. That's dispicable behaviour. Unless your moral compass is completely adrift, you should be ashamed of yourself. Face it - the guys at NJI made a better deal than you did with Santulli because they were better qualified and could demand it.

I fully support your effort to improve your lot at NJA, that will have a positive impact on the industry if you are successful and will reverse the trend of diminishing compensation throughout non-corporate aviation. I just don't see how you can sleep at night if you have to do it on the backs of other pilots who definitely don't want what you have to offer.

I fly out of the same airport as your BBJ base and know many of their pilots - both the majority that supported the TA and the others who did not . I find it interesting that even though those guys have made their own (much better) deal with management and have spilt off into their own company (check the SEC Registry), you guys aren't complaining about their organization.

GEX

Dude, put the crack pipe down. It ain't good for the 'ole heart. We arent trying to get the gulfstream job you moron. We are trying to increase OUR pay. If we merge, we wouldn't get to fly the Gbird for a long time. They would become union and left in type. We couldn't touch em for a while. It is all about trying to get what we want (again, PAY), and threatening to file single carrier forces them to make a decision...

As far as sleeping at night....we don't sleep at night because we are trying to figure out how to pay bills. We don't want anything off of the backs of the NJI pilots. We just want what is due to us. Don't drink before you post.

The majority that supported the TA???? Huh???? It failed by 83%. Those that supported it would be called the MINORITY. I think you need to start sucking more oxygen at cruise. Do us all a favor and just shut up unless you have something intelligent to say.

 

[Hawkered]

CE750 Drvr

What exactly was that you were trying to say? Please be more clear>>>LOL!!!

Not to defend B757 and others, but single-carrier could be harder to legit' in court than we think because of the distinctive restriction on aircraft types.

 

[semperfido]

hey catyaak you don't work here, you don't work for nji so why don't you mind your own buisness. You don't know anything about what we do on the road and the history.

Mind your own fing buisness

LOL..this kills me...it's a public forum...an amusement.

 

[Stickshaker]

Mister 757BBJ Capt. (cool name, I bet you have a big watch too. )

You are so outdated.
Your right, it's been over 1300 day's and counting for our new contract and our OLD union had a hard time at it. BUT, we have a new chapter, and a new experienced leadership that is getting things done (such as our new chapter). We will win this long battle. It takes time to do it right.
Now tell us why your so bitter and angry. I know your not as ignorant as you sound, so please just let it out. Maybe you lost a job in the past that was part of a union and now you can't fly your heavy 757. What ever it is, please just talk to someone, life is to short to be so bitter and uniformed.
Good luck Mister 757BBJ CAPT.

 

[CatYaaak]

hey catyaak you don't work here, you don't work for nji so why don't you mind your own buisness. You don't know anything about what we do on the road and the history.

Mind your own fing buisness

Tut, tut...once again you're confused, Deisel. It's precisely because I DO know what you do, your business, and your history, that I don't work there. To know you is to avoid employment there, and I'm definitely not alone in this. It's not like there's been a shroud of secrecy over the place, especially not to anyone paying even the most passing attention.

Take a look around and ask yourself..who's griping and moaning about being misled and tricked regarding the working conditions, contract promises, and pay at NJA. Now look at who wasn't misled, and where do they work? That alone should tell you something about who was "minding the business" you seem to think is a big secret to everyone but yourselves.

But thanks for cracking me up...enormously. Unfortunately for you though (and to my enjoyment), a public message board isn't a union hall where you can control who gets to voice themselves. I recommend putting me and anyone you don't agree with on "Ignore"....you guys have always been good at that.

But then again, look at the state you're in.....solve-nothing lawsuits and pointless, illogical scablist threats. Just think if, instead of spreading such bad Karma around, you channelled all that energy into something productive!

 

[Live4flyng]

But then again, look at the state you're in

A fractional will be in your state soon, and your little cushy jet job that allows you so much time on a message board will be over. Enjoy it while it lasts D!ck!

 

[AA717driver]

Mind your own fing buisness

Diesel--Like you're minding your business with the single carrier filing. You'll f'k with someone else's life to improve your...TC

 

[Heavy Set]

Dude, put the crack pipe down. It ain't good for the 'ole heart. We arent trying to get the gulfstream job you moron. We are trying to increase OUR pay. If we merge, we wouldn't get to fly the Gbird for a long time. They would become union and left in type. We couldn't touch em for a while. It is all about trying to get what we want (again, PAY), and threatening to file single carrier forces them to make a decision...

As far as sleeping at night....we don't sleep at night because we are trying to figure out how to pay bills. We don't want anything off of the backs of the NJI pilots. We just want what is due to us. Don't drink before you post.

The majority that supported the TA???? Huh???? It failed by 83%. Those that supported it would be called the MINORITY. I think you need to start sucking more oxygen at cruise. Do us all a favor and just shut up unless you have something intelligent to say.

Just speculating. If NJA and NJI merge, would the GIV/V FOs at NJI have to bid the Beechjet/Ultra to get PIC time or could they conceivably move straight to the left seat of the GIV/V? In other words, if the NJI pilots aren't automatically subordinated to the bottom of NJA's list and instead allowed to stay in the Gulfstreams, is it likely that NJA pilots would be given first dibs on open Gulfstream slots (left or right seats)? That would likely leave a lot of Gulfstream FOs floating with an inability to move to the left seat. Not sure how appealing a move to the Beechjet would be after flying worldwide on the GIV/V.

I know it is pure speculation at this point about what would happen if a merger of seniority lists takes place... Nobody can fortell the future. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there are a lot of concerned Gulfstream FOs out there hoping this doesn't happen any time soon...

 

[Live4flyng]

Diesel--Like you're minding your business with the single carrier filing. You'll f'k with someone else's life to improve your...TC

Oh please spare us the emotion TC. Netjets has screwed with NJA long enough. In business, you get what you can negotiate. If it turns out that NJI may not have negotiated as good a deal as NJA when this is all over, no hard feelings. It's just business, right?

 

[GEXDriver]

Dude, put the crack pipe down. It ain't good for the 'ole heart. We arent trying to get the gulfstream job you moron. We are trying to increase OUR pay. If we merge, we wouldn't get to fly the Gbird for a long time. They would become union and left in type. We couldn't touch em for a while. It is all about trying to get what we want (again, PAY), and threatening to file single carrier forces them to make a decision...

Thanks for the intelligent and articulate response to my post. Here's a couple of excerpts from your fellow NJA pilot's regarding forcing the NJI pilots into your union:

I been here 7 years and I think a G-IV would look very good on me.

We are not interested in your pilots. It is the airplanes we are interested in.

At least you guys speak with one voice.

The majority that supported the TA???? Huh???? It failed by 83%. Those that supported it would be called the MINORITY. I think you need to start sucking more oxygen at cruise. Do us all a favor and just shut up unless you have something intelligent to say.

Dispite the disparaging remarks you made about me and my perceptive skills, I never-the-less read and comprehend the posts to which I respond; something you apparently are unable to do. If you will reread my post you will see that I said it was the majority of BBJ pilots who supported the TA as did the majority of Falcon 2000 pilots. What you have at NJA is a reversal of the union paradigm at the Legacy airlines where the senior captains could care less about the junior pilots. At NetJets the junior guys, primarily post 9/11 hires, threw the senior pilots under the bus costing them a $25,000 signing bonus and a 13% raise. By the way, the TA was voted down by 82% not 83%. You work for the company - at least you could get your facts straight.

You didn't respond as to why you don't care that the BBJ pilots made their own deal with Santuli paying from $135k to $213k (where your payscale tops at 95.8k) and have formed their own company.

GEX

 

[CatYaaak]

A fractional will be in your state soon, and your little cushy jet job that allows you so much time on a message board will be over. Enjoy it while it lasts D!ck!

Ah yes, another thing you frequently sink to..threats to close down corporate flight departments...the very places you want your pay to be on par with! Then you can do that corporation's flying for crap wages...victory in your eyes, but pretty much the same thing you moan about scabs and non-union pilots doing in the airline world undercutting the well-paid positions. How sad that you actually think that's something desirable.

But I'm not too worried about losing my job to fractionals. Fracs are only appealing to a niche market, and that presumes not only my employer fitting the niche, but also that there's a free market where I work. My job doesn't fit either. My employer just buys stuff anyway...they don't rent. But I can pretty much guarantee your union won't be in this country no matter who's flying what, since unions are illegal, and my employers make the rules because they run the place. I'm guessing here, but that would probably bother you more than the extremist whackos running around. You'd hate it here, in fact, which is probably why I like it.

Yes, I do fly the little cushy jets..they keep them around by virtue of their ability to easily operate into places the rest of my employer's private fleet can't. 777s and A340s aren't really designed for many airports off the beaten path like London City or african strips or Swiss ski resorts, and even finding parking places for them can be a b!tch not only due to aircraft footprint but also because they'll sink.

I'm not complaining...there's much more variety and flights to interesting places on the little ones, but unfortunately at the price of fewer Flight attendants on board...ususally only 2 instead of about 20 for the big ones. There are few BBJs, but they're usually detailed to precede the rest of us around, carrying luggage and security detail so they don't get any FAs at all...poor saps.

So I'd like to listen in while one of your salesmen or Warren himself tries to sell them on all the ways your company or any fractional can serve them better. Perhaps they could provide some XLs for the big ones to use as escape pods.

 

[semperfido]

Ah yes, another thing you frequently sink to..threats to close down corporate flight departments...the very places you want your pay to be on par with! Then you can do that corporation's flying for crap wages...victory in your eyes, but pretty much the same thing you moan about scabs and non-union pilots doing in the airline world undercutting the well-paid positions. How sad that you actually think that's something desirable.

this is a very good point and makes a lot of sense. you are either a "free market economy" guy or not. you can't have it both ways. this is where the union mentality becomes schizophrenic.

 

[Live4flyng]

You didn't respond as to why you don't care that the BBJ pilots made their own deal with Santuli paying from $135k to $213k (where your payscale tops at 95.8k) and have formed their own company.

The BBJ pilots did not make their own deal. They are part of the same contract, and a vote took place over the BBJ pay scale years ago. They can call the BBJs whatever company they want, still falls under the NJA seniority list.


Cat,

I wasn't threatening you, just pointing out where business aviation is headed.

Fido,

Please don't label me a communist, socialist or whatever else you are trying to say. I am all for a free market economy. If you want to put a label on me, Capitalist sounds good. You don't know jack about our union and pilot group, or you would have a different opinion. You think our union is "schizophrenic"? It is highly organized and your opinions no longer matter.

 

[semperfido]

"my opinions on this subject don't matter"-- ok i'll agree with that

and ok you are a capitalist. but the quote from Catyak was an apt description. . and you are correct i don't know much about your union/pilot group-- just what i read here while amusing myself on trips. i am not interested in being a part of any formal union.