NJA TA in principal reached!!!

[BentOver]

Wait, what happened to 10/250 as the absolute minimum?

 

[gunfyter]

Wait, what happened to 10/250 as the absolute minimum?

14/250 if you work an average of 19 days per month and include 10% overtime and an average share of holiday pay. 228 work days per year.

11/150 for sic under same schedule.

 

[BentOver]

14/250 if you work an average of 19 days per month and include 10% overtime and an average share of holiday pay. 228 work days per year.

11/150 for sic under same schedule.

Is that for all fleets or larger cabin... Is the 18 day being upped to 19?

11 years to make $150 doing 19 days+ holidays as an SIC..... NJA will have the same problem they did '05-'07. SIC's leaving for airlines... Only thing that may deter a mass exodus is the number of airline spots available due to all the flow contracts with the regionals.

I can see Captains maybe voting yes if they can clear $200k+. But what is the word form SIC's.

 

[gunfyter]

Word is two Phenom captains left yesterday. I think if enough six attrition occurs they will come begging with an IBB to up the pay

I don't see the six/pic pay ratio as much of the problem as the lack of any idea if there will be any upgrades in a reasonable timeframe.

 

[imacdog]

10 yr SIC 7/7 doesn't even break 100k.

 

[gutshotdraw]

80 is my guess

I'll take that bet.

North of 65% would shock me. I will take a hammer to my crystal ball and never, ever, make a prediction again if that happens.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Two things come up from the hard-sellers every time somebody says they are a NO voter.

1. There's no more money. It's a pretty good raise. We can't get any more...etc. etc.

2. What will you do if it fails? We'll be screwed. The company will come back at us for more concessions. The skies will boil, chaos will reign, dogs and cats will be living together, MASS HYSTERIA!


Here's my answers.

1. It ISN'T about the salary scale. It's about the quality of life issues. It's pretty close to being a good deal but needs some "tweaking."

All 12 earned days available as PTO or sick days. Cost to the company: ZERO

Eliminate the GLC PIC salary scale disparity. Re-average the same available money into ONE scale (goring my own ox here BTW). Cost to the company: ZERO

The section on union/company assessment of hotels and the minor dispute process is EXPRESSLY extended to include international hotels and NetJets Europe is SPECIFICALLY REMOVED from selecting hotels for NJA crews. Cost to the company: NEGLIGIBLE

The 10 hour POLICY on coach/business class seating is PUT IN WRITING as a CBA REQUIREMENT. We can work on whittling the time down next time. Cost to company: NEGLIGIBLE

No rest period shorter than the preceding duty period, rounded up to the next hour. Cost to the company: Net positive because of fewer fatigue calls

DURATION The biggie. 4 years with a 2 year option. Cost to the company: TBA
I can stomach a poor to average deal for 6-8 years. 8-10? No way.

2. What do we do if it fails? Simple. Pedro and the EBoard ask for a sitdown with AJ and Bill. LUTHI STAYS OUT OF THE ROOM. Pedro says "We WANTED this to pass. We tried to get it passed. We're CLOSE. Tweak just a few of these things, especially duration and I think we can get it done."

You know, an ADULT conversation.

But it's moot. This thing is going to pass, it will suck the same but we'll get paid a bit more, and in two years you won't be able to find a soul who voted yes.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Can it be better QOL? Sure.

How do you write that into a CBA?

Corporate culture change is the only way to go in other ti achieve QOL.

Luthi can waive his magic schlong at AJ and Noe to accomplish that at a negotiating table.

It must happen from the top.

If the top heads down that path, there are seemingly thousands of beneficial effects.

I can think of just north of 2,700 actually.

 

[NachoMamma]

Two things come up from the hard-sellers every time somebody says they are a NO voter.

1. There's no more money. It's a pretty good raise. We can't get any more...etc. etc.

2. What will you do if it fails? We'll be screwed. The company will come back at us for more concessions. The skies will boil, chaos will reign, dogs and cats will be living together, MASS HYSTERIA!


Here's my answers.

1. It ISN'T about the salary scale. It's about the quality of life issues. It's pretty close to being a good deal but needs some "tweaking."

All 12 earned days available as PTO or sick days. Cost to the company: ZERO

Eliminate the GLC PIC salary scale disparity. Re-average the same available money into ONE scale (goring my own ox here BTW). Cost to the company: ZERO

The section on union/company assessment of hotels and the minor dispute process is EXPRESSLY extended to include international hotels and NetJets Europe is SPECIFICALLY REMOVED from selecting hotels for NJA crews. Cost to the company: NEGLIGIBLE

The 10 hour POLICY on coach/business class seating is PUT IN WRITING as a CBA REQUIREMENT. We can work on whittling the time down next time. Cost to company: NEGLIGIBLE

No rest period shorter than the preceding duty period, rounded up to the next hour. Cost to the company: Net positive because of fewer fatigue calls

DURATION The biggie. 4 years with a 2 year option. Cost to the company: TBA
I can stomach a poor to average deal for 6-8 years. 8-10? No way.

2. What do we do if it fails? Simple. Pedro and the EBoard ask for a sitdown with AJ and Bill. LUTHI STAYS OUT OF THE ROOM. Pedro says "We WANTED this to pass. We tried to get it passed. We're CLOSE. Tweak just a few of these things, especially duration and I think we can get it done."

You know, an ADULT conversation.

But it's moot. This thing is going to pass, it will suck the same but we'll get paid a bit more, and in two years you won't be able to find a soul who voted yes.

Totally agree. Great post.

 

[ExecJetCA]

We now have first time Captains again on this current bid. One of you experts claimed it wouldn't happen anytime soon. Anything else you amateur Notredamueas like to predict?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Congrats to new Captains!

 

[BentOver]

We now have first time Captains again on this current bid. One of you experts claimed it wouldn't happen anytime soon. Anything else you amateur Notredamueas like to predict?

Only took 10 years and a bit of attrition..t

Interesting timing on the first upgrades in a decade oh so close to contract ratification time..

Good for the guys upgrading, I'd be skeptical of the timing

 

[jetlag7]

Is that for all fleets or larger cabin... Is the 18 day being upped to 19?

11 years to make $150 doing 19 days+ holidays as an SIC..... NJA will have the same problem they did '05-'07. SIC's leaving for airlines... Only thing that may deter a mass exodus is the number of airline spots available due to all the flow contracts with the regionals.

I can see Captains maybe voting yes if they can clear $200k+. But what is the word form SIC's.

Major changes to scheduling..... 7/7 is still there and still considered the "base" schedule. -- The 18 and 15 day schedules remain with "modifications" and they've added a 13 and 19 day schedule.

I predict an SIC Exodus as well, but as long as NJ continues to attract a fresh supply of retired airline Captains year after year to replace them, it probably won't create as big a problem as we think.....

 

[JJDriver]

80+ hour work weeks, 4-5 legs per day, loading bags and cleaning planes. They're going to need a fresh supply of retired guys every year.

 

[NachoMamma]

We now have first time Captains again on this current bid. One of you experts claimed it wouldn't happen anytime soon. Anything else you amateur Notredamueas like to predict?

Cute, but factually wrong (what a shock). Almost none of the guys that just got this award are actual 'first-time' Captains. Most were previous small jet captains that self downgraded into large cabin airplanes. The new TA removes the incentive for them to stay there as PBW was removed for FO's only (still not sure that is). Therefore, they're coming back to tiny jets...and they're going to hate it too. That was predictable.

Secondly, the claims that were made about the lack of upgrades here had to do with perspective NEW HIRES...not existing seniority list pilots. Everyone that got this award has been here at least a decade. A new hire here will be waiting 2-3 times that amount of time due primarily to the lack of a mandatory retirement age. So yes, for new hires (2015), there will never be upgrades here again.

Next time do your homework genius...you might learn something.

 

[BentOver]

Cute, but factually wrong (what a shock). Almost none of the guys that just got this award are actual 'first-time' Captains. Most were previous small jet captains that self downgraded into large cabin airplanes. The new TA removes the incentive for them to stay there as PBW was removed for FO's only (still not sure that is). Therefore, they're coming back to tiny jets...and they're going to hate it too. That was predictable.

Secondly, the claims that were made about the lack of upgrades here had to do with perspective NEW HIRES...not existing seniority list pilots. Everyone that got this award has been here at least a decade. A new hire here will be waiting 2-3 times that amount of time due primarily to the lack of a mandatory retirement age. So yes, for new hires (2015), there will never be upgrades here again.

Next time do your homework genius...you might learn something.

I know in my hire timeframe, I think it's still 2-300 numbers away...And that was a new hire class over 8 years ago. Even if they upgraded 30 new captains a year ( which they haven't done in a decade), that is 6-10 years away (not counting possible SIC attrition ahead of me.)

Those who were hired late 2005 early 2006 at the beginning of the hiring spree, they may sneak in by year 11 or 12... But as with any airline, those hired just a few month to a year later, it could add years to upgrade.

And to top it off it's a 11-15 year upgrade into a Phenom. The wait for anything more advanced/larger has got to be close to 20 years.

 

[ExecJetCA]

Cute, but factually wrong (what a shock). Almost none of the guys that just got this award are actual 'first-time' Captains. Most were previous small jet captains that self downgraded into large cabin airplanes. The new TA removes the incentive for them to stay there as PBW was removed for FO's only (still not sure that is). Therefore, they're coming back to tiny jets...and they're going to hate it too. That was predictable.



Secondly, the claims that were made about the lack of upgrades here had to do with perspective NEW HIRES...not existing seniority list pilots. Everyone that got this award has been here at least a decade. A new hire here will be waiting 2-3 times that amount of time due primarily to the lack of a mandatory retirement age. So yes, for new hires (2015), there will never be upgrades here again.



Next time do your homework genius...you might learn something.

Wow, you amaze me. I look at the awards, only one person was a previous Captain, maybe two. You no guys are just so smart. If it gets voted down, I would love to see your plan. Because, everything previous isn't going to work. Now if you guys collectively put on your tin foil hats and come up with something that might work, I would love to hear about. But if you fail to collect lost pay during renegotiations, and make improvements, whose fault will it be. Maybe the EB/NC decides to step down and let you kids have a go at, but you damn well better produce.

 

[NachoMamma]

I look at the awards, only one person was a previous Captain, maybe two.

Really? You looked at the awards? Because only 2 out of the 5 that received the award were NOT previous captains. C'mon new guy...at least try get your sh!t together before you run off at the mouth.

As for a NO vote costing people money...I just don't care. Doing the right thing is more important to me.

 

[fischman]

Only took 10 years and a bit of attrition..t

Interesting timing on the first upgrades in a decade oh so close to contract ratification time..

Good for the guys upgrading, I'd be skeptical of the timing

I don't think buying 5 yes votes is going to make it pass.

 

[fischman]

80+ hour work weeks, 4-5 legs per day, loading bags and cleaning planes. They're going to need a fresh supply of retired guys every year.

Melodrama.

If you're working that many hours and flying that many legs, it's only because you let them.

 

[BentOver]

I don't think buying 5 yes votes is going to make it pass.

True, just playing conspiracy theorist.... I was thinking more along the lines of raising the hope of the 100 or so immediately after... The gullible ones who think all of a sudden upgrades will begin in earnest.

 

[Diesel]

Melodrama.



If you're working that many hours and flying that many legs, it's only because you let them.

I've never understood this line of thinking.

We're not going to fix the day by having clear work rules and hours of service. We expect you to fix it yourself.

Just an odd way of thinking.

 

[fischman]

I've never understood this line of thinking.

We're not going to fix the day by having clear work rules and hours of service. We expect you to fix it yourself.

Just an odd way of thinking.

I feel an odd way of thinking is flying until you fall over. If you are working that hard, it's only because you let them. Under our current work rules, it is what it is.

 

[Diesel]

I feel an odd way of thinking is flying until you fall over. If you are working that hard, it's only because you let them. Under our current work rules, it is what it is.

It's been shown very clearly that the worst decisions come long after you should have shut down. Unfortunately you're not in a state of mind to make those decisions.

Trying to pass off work rules to the pilots and blaming them for it is like blaming the rape victim because she wore a slutty outfit.

Work rules are in place to protect us from ourselves. Pilots do a really crappy job of saying no.

 

[imacdog]

Work rules to prevent working pilots until they fatigue would also help the owners since there would be less last-minute scrambles to a recover a trip from a crew dropping an F bomb.

 

[fischman]

It's been shown very clearly that the worst decisions come long after you should have shut down. Unfortunately you're not in a state of mind to make those decisions.

Trying to pass off work rules to the pilots and blaming them for it is like blaming the rape victim because she wore a slutty outfit.

Work rules are in place to protect us from ourselves. Pilots do a really crappy job of saying no.

I agree 100%

But if one is flying 80 hours and performing 4-5 legs a day for 7 days, they have no one to blame but themselves. That's where the melodrama lies.

 

[gunfyter]

Work rules to prevent working pilots until they fatigue would also help the owners since there would be less last-minute scrambles to a recover a trip from a crew dropping an F bomb.

True...

They got what they wanted though. I've been on the 15 day with 5 day max tour lengths for many years. I have fatigued only once or twice a year. To make the money I want to make I will need to work the CC72 with 8 day tours.

I imagine I will needs to fatigues much more often.


I guess this works out better for them?

 

[Diesel]

I agree 100%



But if one is flying 80 hours and performing 4-5 legs a day for 7 days, they have no one to blame but themselves. That's where the melodrama lies.

No melodrama I don't give my buddy his keys after a few drinks and say just drive a little slower.

If pilots could monitor themselves the FAA wouldn't have all these pesky duty time rules written in blood.

We got played pure and simple.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The airplanes are still fatiguing before I have to....

 

[fischman]

If pilots could monitor themselves the FAA wouldn't have all these pesky duty time rules written in blood.

Come on man. You know those rules were written for companies, not crews. That's why there are no limitations under part 91.