NJA Radical Children

[Diesel]

Yup happy because lazyness is bliss.

If there is a 50 plus 1 will you then sign up or come up with another excuse?

 

[gutshotdraw]

I won't sign up regardless. NJASAP will soon be my bargaining agent and my conduit of information. My effort will be expended within that organization.

I'm curious. You're a member of NJASAP but you're joining GPAC too? How does that work?

 

[Diesel]

Am I not a gulfstream pilot?

I sure am signing up because I am a gulfstream pilot but also a dues paying member of the union. I'm lucky I get to hear both sides of the argument while most NJI pilots only hear the side the company wants them to hear. Often it has an interesting slant that makes me chuckle.

I'm joining because there are things we do that the union should learn about and understand. I realize that if they are dealing with a select few (selected by those that drive G's) the message of what we need, want, and expect will be a lot clearer.

If you had access to our union board you would see that I am constantly trying to demystify what we do to those that are willing to listen. A good thing is a lot are willing to listen. Even the union leadership.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Guts,

I wont argue your personal views, everyone has them. But here is where I get lost in translation...

Back in September/October when the "announcement" was made, NJI pilots went ballistic. Pissed off doesn't do justice to what our pilots were saying about everyone from Warren to the Assistant Chief. Within a few weeks, the sentiment grew and a resounding message was sent to Okatie...

"WE WANT A VOICE AND A SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS FROM THIS POINT FORWARD"

If you don't believe that statement was pounded out by the rank and file, you have your head deeper in the sand than I thought. You and I both know dozens and dozens of our pilots complained and talked to their group leaders and upper management and expressed their concerns that we have someone representing our interests in the integration. Not one single response to that request came from management.

SOOooooo...

Wham Bam, GPAC comes out of the rank and file to give our pilots exactly what they want, a voice and an opportunity to share their thoughts directly with the people who will guide this integration. And lo and behold the union actually supports GPAC of all things.


But...

Thats not good enough for you, and because you dont like who started it, or what its doing, or how its laid out, or what ever has crawled up your *ss about it... you trash the idea and trash the people who support it.

Personally I dont care if you support GPAC or not. But your lack of understanding the internal workings of a union and what it takes to make the association function are obvious in your take on GPAC. In the letter sent to NJI pilots from NJASAP the integration team openly endorsed GPAC and asked NJI pilots to support the effort because they (the union) see the validity in working with a committee of NJI pilots.

Your idea that the effort is fruitless is confusing.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Am I not a gulfstream pilot?

I sure am signing up because I am a gulfstream pilot but also a dues paying member of the union. I'm lucky I get to hear both sides of the argument while most NJI pilots only hear the side the company wants them to hear. Often it has an interesting slant that makes me chuckle.

I'm joining because there are things we do that the union should learn about and understand. I realize that if they are dealing with a select few (selected by those that drive G's) the message of what we need, want, and expect will be a lot clearer.

If you had access to our union board you would see that I am constantly trying to demystify what we do to those that are willing to listen. A good thing is a lot are willing to listen. Even the union leadership.

I hear you Diesel, that's why I have been talking directly to two people at the forefront of the integration process including a NJASAP Trustee that I have known since long before he joined Netjets. He put me in touch with an NJASAP integration rep that was anxious to hear from a line pilot about how NJI operates that is different from NJA. I told him they were strictly my opinions and he accepted them as such.

NJASAP wants as much input as possible from NJI pilots which is perhaps why they have embraced the notion of GPAC. The rep told me they would like to find a way to incorporate some of the better ways NJI does things into the entire operation. But if some NJI pilots think GPAC will somehow alter the outcome of the integration, especially with respect to seniority, that is, I think, naive. When it comes to pay, benefits, seniority and a few other core issues, it will be the CBA down the line.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Guts,

I wont argue your personal views, everyone has them. But here is where I get lost in translation...

Back in September/October when the "announcement" was made, NJI pilots went ballistic. Pissed off doesn't do justice to what our pilots were saying about everyone from Warren to the Assistant Chief. Within a few weeks, the sentiment grew and a resounding message was sent to Okatie...

"WE WANT A VOICE AND A SAY IN WHAT HAPPENS FROM THIS POINT FORWARD"

If you don't believe that statement was pounded out by the rank and file, you have your head deeper in the sand than I thought. You and I both know dozens and dozens of our pilots complained and talked to their group leaders and upper management and expressed their concerns that we have someone representing our interests in the integration. Not one single response to that request came from management.

SOOooooo...

Wham Bam, GPAC comes out of the rank and file to give our pilots exactly what they want, a voice and an opportunity to share their thoughts directly with the people who will guide this integration. And lo and behold the union actually supports GPAC of all things.


But...

Thats not good enough for you, and because you dont like who started it, or what its doing, or how its laid out, or what ever has crawled up your *ss about it... you trash the idea and trash the people who support it.

Personally I dont care if you support GPAC or not. But your lack of understanding the internal workings of a union and what it takes to make the association function are obvious in your take on GPAC. In the letter sent to NJI pilots from NJASAP the integration team openly endorsed GPAC and asked NJI pilots to support the effort because they (the union) see the validity in working with a committee of NJI pilots.

Your idea that the effort is fruitless is confusing.

Wolfy, I would ask you to re-read my post of November 8 from Rusty's GPAC update thread. Especially the last paragraph. I have never trashed the pilots who started GPAC (I still don't know who they are and frankly haven't asked) nor the pilots who support it.

I was not at all surprised by the September announcement of the intent to integrate. It happened about 6-12 months earlier than I expected but the outcome was never in doubt since the LOA of November 2005 that allowed NJA pilots to bid over to NJI. Anyone who didn't see that handwriting on the wall was fooling themselves and I said so in more than one post on this forum.

I know you were heavily involved in your union in your past 121 life. But you don't hold an exclusive license on the inner workings of a union. I have been there, and done that, front row seat (including a strike).

I agree with you that the silence from Okatie has been deafening and that has been disappointing. I've been puzzled by their handling of the integration issue for more than three years now.

As I told Diesel in the post above, I am involved in the association that will represent me in less than two years if only on an informal but direct basis. Once the integration is complete and we begin to pay dues, who knows how my involvement will change.

I'm really not trying to trash you, Diesel, GPAC or anybody else. I have just chosen to channel my input through a different funnel.

So Happy Thanksgiving to you.

 

[Diesel]

As I told Diesel in the post above, I am involved in the association that will represent me in less than two years if only on an informal but direct basis. Once the integration is complete and we begin to pay dues, who knows how my involvement will change.

I'm really not trying to trash you, Diesel, GPAC or anybody else. I have just chosen to channel my input through a different funnel.

so why don't you join your fellow pilots voice so that our voice is heard louder?

You have no problem talking directly to the union. The union has already acknowledged the benefits that gpac will have on the integration. So why not and help out that by simply registering.

Or maybe you have another plan in mind?

 

[jetlag7]

The Radical union (kids) at NJA need to get a handle on their attitude before all the B.S. on (F-them) gets out to NJI pilots. This attitude toward NJI WILL NOT HELP in the trans. NJI didn't create this mess, RTS and the old union did. THIS is a business, nothing more. The majority of NJI pilots are mature and very experienced, and want their jobs to remain unchanged. I have witnessed Poor attitudes from NJA guys toward NJI more than a few times. The NJASAP union appears to trying to make this go smoothly but there are always a few BONE HEAD children that stir the pot because they think the company or NJI owes them something. Lets make this as painless as possible for all. So all the smart and mature guys at NJA plz try to calm these guys down, they will only hurt the merge.
:beer:

This post is spreading "good-will" and "fellowship" exactly how???

 

[YankeeEcho]

Guts,

........ In the letter sent to NJI pilots from NJASAP the integration team openly endorsed GPAC and asked NJI pilots to support the effort because they (the union) see the validity in working with a committee of NJI pilots...........quote]


What letter sent "..to the NJI pilots from NJASAP..." ????

I haven't seen one!

 

[jenex]

GPAC will have little influence on this integration even if they are voted in.
This integration will be controlled by the previous Union Leader Bill Olsen.
The majority, NJA will swallow the minority. They have no duty to represent the minority and will not do so until the NJI pilots are paying members.

They will grab as many seats as the LOA allows. Its about cash and getting more for there members.

There will only be a small number of NJI pilots adversely affected by the integration. Current NJI FO, and thats it.

 

[realityman]

You obviously don't understand what's happening at all.

GPAC will have little influence on this integration even if they are voted in.

That remains to be seen. GPAC can't officially change anything in the integration. But our union leaders have promised to listen to their concerns and attempt to address them fairly as things move forward. I can't say how the company will accept GPAC, but with our union listening to you at least you know someone will take your concerns into consideration.


This integration will be controlled by the previous Union Leader Bill Olsen.

He is the architect of this integration, and is now the company voice for it. But their is more than the company side. There's the pilot's side, which is represented by the union, which in turn will be listening closely to what GPAC has to say.


The majority, NJA will swallow the minority.

Uh, no. We don't swallow over here.

They have no duty to represent the minority and will not do so until the NJI pilots are paying members.

Correct. Up to a point. If you're not CURRENTLY a member of the union, the union has no duty to represent you. However, totally steamrolling the NJI folks isn't in anyone's best interest, since those same NJI folks will very soon be part of the union. It'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to piss off all the NJI folks who are about to supposedly become part of our family. Why on earth would we want to punch you in the face when it's very likely that we'll need you working closely with us on future issues?

They will grab as many seats as the LOA allows.

Yeah. That's sort of the point of the LOA. If we get 1/3 of all captain vacancies in the GIV, why would we only take 1/6 of them?

Its about cash and getting more for there members.

Not true. It was about setting things up to make an easier case for us to petition for single-carrier status, had it come to that. And now it's simply about providing for a smooth and structured transition. For the record, if I were to accept a GIV captain spot today, I would actually take a sizable pay cut! Others, who are far junior to me, might see a modest pay increase, but it all kind of balances out. Do you really think you're operating so many Gulfstreams that it's going to make a big difference to the W2's of most our pilots?

There will only be a small number of NJI pilots adversely affected by the integration.

Finally, a completely true statement.

Current NJI FO, and thats it.

We will also have a few adversely affected by this integration. The pain, as well as the benefits, aren't all one-sided.

 

[Dirty Dingus]

Hey Jet, The post was not intended to spread anything. It was posted to ask for help from the mature pilots at NJA, to help try and control the obviously new to this company, immature acting children. :bawling: As I said before, there seems to be a few bone heads that think they are being mistreated and that talking crap about the NJI guys will make a difference.

cheers,
:beer:

 

[CE750Driver]

As far as I'm concerned this is a WIN WIN situation for all of the Netjet pilots. Cheers
:beer:

Dirty, I would say the majority over here don't think that. Most of the guys I talk to see this deal as lopsided for the NJI side. That being said, most think that nothing can be done about it and are resigned to the fact. Can you explain why you think its win win for everyone? Maybe it will sway a few. (possibly me)

No matter how I feel about the deal, I will always treat the guys at NJI with respect, as none of this is their fault.

 

[CastofThousands]

Gutshot-

Good then don't join. Keep hoping that everything stays good and that BO hasn't switched over to the dark side and that someone will do the heavy lifting for you.

To not even register because you feel is a waste of time is one of the more pansy things I've read. Be a man grab your balls and say, "I don't believe in this." not "well everything will hopefully be allright and I believe its a waste of time"

I'd respect you a hell of a lot more in the morning.

D,

Generally speaking in business there’s dark on both sides (management and labor); that’s just a reality we all have to accept and avoid. The integration/amalgamation process won’t be worked in the margins where it’s the darkest – but rather the middle where there is a common interest to best position our owners, employees, and shareholders long term. Bottom line – the fractional founders never imagined a world beyond 100 to 200 fractionally operated aircraft. Much like the inventors of the cell phone saw a potential market of up to 200,000 users.

Right now every fractional provider is bleeding – all more than NetJets. It’s public knowledge that fractional owners can exit their fractional program contracts after 2 to 3 years in the program (there are many owner contract available on the net – just read them). Owners are leaving CS, FX, FO, and NJ – some owners are exiting the unstable/unsecured fractional programs at a rapid pace (i.e. run on the bank before that fractional runs out of cash/capital to buy owner shares back). We know the rate of exit across the industry. What happens when an owner elects to leave a program? The program has to write a check to the owner at “fair market value.” Not only does the program cash out the owner at fair market value, the program also loses the monthly management fee and hourly fees (primary source of cash flow/revenue during a period of limited to no sales). Add to this a 20% to 40% decline in flight demand (another reduction in cash flow/revenue). NetJets is on the low end (closer to 20%) of the scale and holding strong – all fractional operators track the flight patterns of the competition so this is not confidential info. This all has a significant impact – the market is getting smaller and the same amount of sheet metal is in the system. Bottom line, industry wide 2009 will be tougher than the second half of 2008 and unless shareholders invest capital in their respective operations they will not survive.

Imagine, Textron can invest hundreds of millions in CS, or take the opportunity to invest in an incredible buyers market – GE at $12 as an example. Some would say Textron is a sick buy right now as well!!!! It has been lower than 1/3 its market cap – almost as low as what Cessna alone is worth at one point. Does Textron invest hundreds of millions in CS over the next 3 to 5 years or are they going after new opportunities? My WAG is they will invest in CS (pride and ego) – but not every holding company will reinvest in this new and highly competitive market. Bombardier, HIG, and BRK have to evaluate the same. No one is seeing 12 month new owner lines to match aircraft deliveries… The energy crisis popped the financial CDO and housing bubble.

The glory days of private aviation and endless liquidity and leveraging are behind us, for a while to come. The Monopoly money is exiting our market (as well as many others) and the Treasury and Fed will have to backfill (as they are). What we had enjoyed the past 10 years was like a race horse or professional cyclist on EPO – supercharged, and not reality. The economy was over leveraged on monies and guarantees that didn’t exists. Now we have to make do without the EPO. Nothing is as valuable as safety, brand loyalty, economies of scale, and streamlined operations. In short, the game has changed – operations will play an equally critical role, if not more so, than sales until the next bubble.

Any air of invincibility will assure failure. Anyone who doesn’t realize much like the legacy airlines only the strongest [operationally] will survive … doesn’t see what has already hit us and what is around the corner. So to me the dark side is those who don’t get it or don’t want to get it. In the integration/amalgamation process everyone will be involved – NetJets will be best positioned for the future recovery. We must take the best of NJA, NJI, NJE, NJLA, and EJM and make it the NetJets standard – no exceptions. Simply stated – conditions will dictate this.

We have many cultures at NetJets; military, civilian, Exec Jet [Aviation, International, and Large Aircraft], corporate/135, regional carrier, legacy carrier [furlough and retired], and cargo. We have an abnormally young left seat vs right seat relative to the legacy/major carriers. We have no mentoring program. We have no defined "NetJets Culture," we are an aviation melting pot. Hopefully, part of this process will be defining NetJets for the Twenty-First Century. Crawl, walk, run as they say and we'll spend the next 2 and 5 years focusing on this process. No one is going to be flipping any switches or pulling anyone's pants down - that must stop moving forward. Everything will be examined and explained.

Most Respectfully,

 

[Dirty Dingus]

Driver,
As I suspect you have been around Netjets for a while and it appears that you voted against the last contract. I THINK YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO, that the union gave away to much to get NJI and for what? It appears that most had the fever to fly G's (because I don't see any other reason), and would do whatever it took to make this happen. This was a big mistake as far as I'm concerned and now people like yourself feel you got the shaft. I agree, and admit we have it good over here because of one thing, among others, we don't have to deal with CMH and all the infighting that came about from the OLD union.
The WIN WIN situation as I see now, SHOULD come out of the integration. Both sides should gain something that they wanted and didn't get in the last negotiations. (i.e. NJI paid holiday's/ NJA more bases to fly from, for example). As you said this is a DONE DEAL per the current LOA and nothing now is being negotiated it is being integrate. NJI can't work under all NJA rules due to the international aspect so there has to be some give and take on both sides(company/union). Hang in there buddy, we as a group should come out of this integration a little better, it may not be what most want but as of now we still have a great job/benefits. As for me, I've been here a long time and I can only gain by the Integration. I look forward to flying one day with the mature guy's from the A side, Maybe you? BTW G.M. (2nd guy to come over), is a good buddy of mine. Come on over and see what all the fuss is about, I really think you would like it!!!!
Cheers:beer:

 

[Diesel]

Ahhhh somone is still playing in the mud. Or at least trying to keep a pulse on how to play the next game.

We know the rate of exit across the industry. What happens when an owner elects to leave a program? The program has to write a check to the owner at “fair market value.”

"Fair market value" is determined by the company not the owner. The owner is at a huge disadvantage because right now planes aren't moving. So they can get out and there is no denying that they are doing so but in the future it is still a win win for the company. They bought the planes at a low (bulk discount pricing) and sold them at a high. They then decide the price at which to sell them which is a deep discount knowing that someday they will be able to turn around and sell that plane for quite a bit more. The owner is jammed up pretty hard here.

The glory days of private aviation and endless liquidity and leveraging are behind us, for a while to come. The Monopoly money is exiting our market (as well as many others) and the Treasury and Fed will have to backfill (as they are). What we had enjoyed the past 10 years was like a race horse or professional cyclist on EPO – supercharged, and not reality. The economy was over leveraged on monies and guarantees that didn’t exists. Now we have to make do without the EPO. Nothing is as valuable as safety, brand loyalty, economies of scale, and streamlined operations. In short, the game has changed – operations will play an equally critical role, if not more so, than sales until the next bubble.

Good I'm glad we both agree that we are very fat in the operations area of headquarters and some serious trimming could be done on VP's and other useless departments running around building silos.

Any air of invincibility will assure failure. Anyone who doesn’t realize much like the legacy airlines only the strongest [operationally] will survive … doesn’t see what has already hit us and what is around the corner. So to me the dark side is those who don’t get it or don’t want to get it. In the integration/amalgamation process everyone will be involved – NetJets will be best positioned for the future recovery. We must take the best of NJA, NJI, NJE, NJLA, and EJM and make it the NetJets standard – no exceptions. Simply stated – conditions will dictate this.

Good I'm glad we agree on this too. So the email you sent out thats going around really is wrong and that NJI pilots will have a voice in this intigration through GPAC, the union or whatever vehicle the PILOTS choose. Glad to hear you've had a change of heart since that email.

We have many cultures at NetJets; military, civilian, Exec Jet [Aviation, International, and Large Aircraft], corporate/135, regional carrier, legacy carrier [furlough and retired], and cargo. We have an abnormally young left seat vs right seat relative to the legacy/major carriers. We have no mentoring program. We have no defined "NetJets Culture," we are an aviation melting pot. Hopefully, part of this process will be defining NetJets for the Twenty-First Century. Crawl, walk, run as they say and we'll spend the next 2 and 5 years focusing on this process. No one is going to be flipping any switches or pulling anyone's pants down - that must stop moving forward. Everything will be examined and explained.

Thats more great news but there are also vp's of this vp's of that, silo building and moving blame has been also a major part of nj's history. Hope that same look at those in the front of the plane are spending the same amount of time look at those sending those planes to xyz.

Even More Super Respectfully,

D

 

[jtf]

I THINK YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO, that the union gave away to much to get NJI and for what? It appears that most had the fever to fly G's (because I don't see any other reason), and would do whatever it took to make this happen. This was a big mistake as far as I'm concerned and now people like yourself feel you got the shaft.Cheers:beer:

Pilots may feel like the union gave up too much to get NJI into the fold, but the union itself was willing to do whatever it had to do to make it happen. It wasn't a fever to fly Gulfstreams and grab seats. This would have been pushed even if NJI was an all VLJ outfit owned and operated by NetJets. I spoke with Bill Olsen as a new hire in January of '06 and he made it very clear even then that NJI had to be brought in to protect the jobs at NJA, not to grab the seats. As long as the company is allowed to fly airplanes without pilots from the same union there isn't much to stop them from growing it out into other aircraft that directly compete with NJA to get around the NJA contract at some point in the future. Just because current management says they won't do it doesn't mean they won't try at some point. One list as a single carrier protects the jobs at NJA and will protect the NJI pilots also (though I'm sure their will be some negatives in there also). While NJI pilots may not believe this is a credible possibility, the history of airlines using this technique to backdoor ALPA is well established and the former 1108/ current NJASAP is all about closing loopholes and learning from ALPAs mistakes. I will probably never fly a IV, V, or 600 series Gulfstream- I won't have the seniority unless I stay here until I'm about 80. I would take a pay cut to do it as an FO and even the right seat is nearly as senior as CA seats at NJA. I still think it is worth the job security to get NJI into the fold.

 

[CastofThousands]

Ahhhh somone is still playing in the mud. Or at least trying to keep a pulse on how to play the next game.

"Fair market value" is determined by the company not the owner. The owner is at a huge disadvantage because right now planes aren't moving. So they can get out and there is no denying that they are doing so but in the future it is still a win win for the company. They bought the planes at a low (bulk discount pricing) and sold them at a high. They then decide the price at which to sell them which is a deep discount knowing that someday they will be able to turn around and sell that plane for quite a bit more. The owner is jammed up pretty hard here.

Good I'm glad we both agree that we are very fat in the operations area of headquarters and some serious trimming could be done on VP's and other useless departments running around building silos.

Good I'm glad we agree on this too. So the email you sent out thats going around really is wrong and that NJI pilots will have a voice in this intigration through GPAC, the union or whatever vehicle the PILOTS choose. Glad to hear you've had a change of heart since that email.

Thats more great news but there are also vp's of this vp's of that, silo building and moving blame has been also a major part of nj's history. Hope that same look at those in the front of the plane are spending the same amount of time look at those sending those planes to xyz.

Even More Super Respectfully,

D

D,

I think you missed the point of the post. I wouldn't say we agree on everything. We do agree the crews will have a voice. Anyone would be naive to believe otherwise.

As stated above:
"No one is going to be flipping any switches or pulling anyone's pants down - that must stop moving forward. Everything will be examined and explained."

'Nuf said,

 

[wolfpackpilot]

GPAC will have little influence on this integration even if they are voted in.
This integration will be controlled by the previous Union Leader Bill Olsen.
The majority, NJA will swallow the minority. They have no duty to represent the minority and will not do so until the NJI pilots are paying members.

They will grab as many seats as the LOA allows. Its about cash and getting more for there members.

There will only be a small number of NJI pilots adversely affected by the integration. Current NJI FO, and thats it.

TAKE COVER, GRENADE! :uzi:

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Can you explain why you think its win win for everyone?

The overwhelming majority of NJI pilots are age 55+. In ten years the turn over here will be approaching 45-50% of the entire pilot group. Those vacancies will be filled straight off the list.