nja owner tell me this ?

[netjetwife]

Don't put words in my mouth, UG. Everyone knows that I'm more than capable of doing that for myself. I did use those smiles in my posts to you. I have noticed that you write intelligently, even if we don't always agree. I do remember Gunfyter's posts. I read carefully. Many times there are numerous points being made and it is necessary (if you are trying to be fair) to go back and reread the thread before responding so that you have a complete understanding of where that person is coming from. I was merely pointing out that you had overlooked other variables in your focus on price alone. I had been consistent in discussing service.

This would become a very boring place if one only spoke/posted when directly spoken to. That said, if you are asking me never to respond to your posts, I will honor that request. As to unions--I advocate the pilots standing up for their right to a professional contract. If they have a better way to go about it that will produce the needed result, fine. I haven't seen it and NJ does have the best deal in the frac industry. I think the other frac pilots deserve professional compensation, as well. It is human nature to get stuck in a rut and need encouragement to climb out. There are more who read than post here and I am more aware of that than others, it seems. I post to the larger audience, and with a card drive taking place and Options getting ready to negotiate their first contract, this is a critical time for lots of frac families. Therefore, I won't be "giving it a rest". I will not be offended if you put me on your ignore list.

Speaking of foolish--I think it is a short-sighted view to ignore the very real possibility that low wages in the industry can be used to pull down the salaries of the NJ pilots. Same thing applies to benefits and QOL issues. If you want to keep those things secure you'd be better off seeing them become industry standards that NJA would have no justification in denying to their pilots. As things stand they have the logical argument--the others don't so why should we?--to use against the pilots.

It saddens me to see the "got mine" attitude among the NJ pilots. I can tell you that all of the pilots and their families would be much worse off if not for those in volunteer and leadership positions that don't share your mentality. It often goes hand in hand that those willing to right a wrong feel that it should apply to everyone facing an injustice, not just their own circle of friends. There's that word again...injustice. That's what the low wages are. Perhaps you were satisfied with your pay. Most were not before the new CBA that my husband, and other SU volunteers, helped bring about.

 

[Ultra Grump]

I was merely pointing out that you had overlooked other variables in your focus on price alone. I had been consistent in discussing service.

Price alone was not my focus, merely a shining example.

This would become a very boring place if one only spoke/posted when directly spoken to. That said, if you are asking me never to respond to your posts, I will honor that request.

That is not what I was asking, nor what I was saying. My point was that I responded directly to someone else, about a specific point, and you responded to me about something else entirely.

Speaking of foolish--I think it is a short-sighted view to ignore the very real possibility that low wages in the industry can be used to pull down the salaries of the NJ pilots. Same thing applies to benefits and QOL issues.

You're right, and I made no comment on that issue.

If you want to keep those things secure you'd be better off seeing them become industry standards that NJA would have no justification in denying to their pilots. As things stand they have the logical argument--the others don't so why should we?--to use against the pilots.

The best way to ensure "industry standards" is to be the industry - to drive the others out of business, eliminate the competition. This has been my point all along. Having more competition does NOT lead to higher pilot wages.

It saddens me to see the "got mine" attitude among the NJ pilots. I can tell you that all of the pilots and their families would be much worse off if not for those in volunteer and leadership positions that don't share your mentality. It often goes hand in hand that those willing to right a wrong feel that it should apply to everyone facing an injustice, not just their own circle of friends. There's that word again...injustice. That's what the low wages are. Perhaps you were satisfied with your pay. Most were not before the new CBA that my husband, and other SU volunteers, helped bring about.

Again, you are responding to something I did not comment on. I made no comment about "I got mine, screw the rest." I said nothing about "I'm happy with what I have, why fight for more?" I am very grateful for everything 1108 has done for us. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with what I was discussing, so why do you bring it up? Again, my point is that more competition in the fractional industry will not help to increase the "industry standard" more than having no competition. It is not my job, nor my worry, to see that Flight Options, FlexJet, or CitationShares succeed. It is my job to help NetJets succeed, as that is who puts money in my bank account and food on my plate.

Yes, if the other fracs' pilots get "industry standard" (i.e. NetJets) contracts, that is better for us than if they're bottom-feeders. Why, aside from the obvious "race-to-the-bottom" aspects? Because if they are on par with NJA, their costs will be higher, pricing will necessarily be higher, they'll be less competitive, and with the notoriously bad management practices in aviation, might help speed their demise. I think we are both fighting the same battle, but different wars. The immediate tactical objective is to improve frac salary and qol across the board. We both agree on this. However, your long-term strategy seems to be to have all the frac families well-taken-care-of. Mine is to see our (NJA) families best-taken-care-of.

 

[netjetwife]

A few "shining" examples of your attitude, UG

The best way to ensure "industry standards" is to be the industry - to drive the others out of business, eliminate the competition. This has been my point all along. You are reinforcing the attitude that you deny having. Having more competition does NOT lead to higher pilot wages. Though you state later that it will even if you think it will only be temporary.

Again, you are responding to something I did not comment on. I made no comment about "I got mine, screw the rest." The words above just prove me right (sadly) but you don't like the image so you deny having it. Again, my point is that more competition in the fractional industry will not help to increase the "industry standard" more than having no competition. It is not my job, nor my worry, to see that Flight Options, FlexJet, or CitationShares succeed. It is my job to help NetJets succeed, as that is who puts money in my bank account and food on my plate. Attitudes aren't jobs. Supporting a good cause doesn't require more than a sense of concern and the ability to empathize. This rationalization was example # 2 of the attitude you claim not to have.

Yes, if the other fracs' pilots get "industry standard" (i.e. NetJets) contracts, that is better for us than if they're bottom-feeders. Because if they are on par with NJA, their costs will be higher, pricing will necessarily be higher, they'll be less competitive, What if they offered better service or some other convenience that was attractive to owners? and with the notoriously bad management practices in aviation, might help speed their demise. Or management would be forced to get their act together and increase efficiency. Another possibility is that the owners would be educated about the need to pay pilots like the professionals they are and part of the expense would be passed on. The immediate tactical objective is to improve frac salary and qol across the board. We both agree on this. However, your long-term strategy seems to be to have all the frac families well-taken-care-of. Mine is to see our (NJA) families best-taken-care-of.

That last is example # 3 and leads me to declare that the emperor has no clothes. As much as you might wish to deny it, your attitude comes through loud and clear. Not only is your objective extremely selfish, but it is unrealistic as well. In the absence of competition comes complacency which results in decreased service. There is no incentive to treat customers well when they have no place to go. (Ditto for NJ and its pilots) That would be the only opening an entrepreneur needed to enter the market. As long as the demand exists there will be other companies interested in the industry. Labor is an integral part of that economic picture. Professional wages for pilots must become a cost of doing business just like the fuel that powers the planes.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Wow, are you blind to anything but your own self-righteous objective.

Having more competition does NOT lead to higher pilot wages.

Though you state later that it will even if you think it will only be temporary.

You seem to think I am stating causality. I am not. Therefore your point is invalid. Where did I say the competition resulted in higher wages? I didn't.

What if they offered better service or some other convenience that was attractive to owners?

Do they? I don't think so. Simply from our sheer size and ability to get an aircraft to them quickly, we have them beat.

Or management would be forced to get their act together and increase

efficiency.

Uh huh.

Another possibility is that the owners would be educated about the need to pay pilots like the professionals they are and part of the expense would be passed on.

As higher prices - my point exactly.

In the absence of competition comes complacency which results in decreased service. There is no incentive to treat customers well when they have no place to go. (Ditto for NJ and its pilots) That would be the only opening an entrepreneur needed to enter the market. As long as the demand exists there will be other companies interested in the industry.

If you were truly paying attention to what I've been saying, you'd know that I've already said that. Something about cycles...

Labor is an integral part of that economic picture. Professional wages for pilots must become a cost of doing business just like the fuel that powers the planes.

Um, yeah. When have I said otherwise?

None of what you said has addressed the fact that having more competition in the industry will not, just by its existence, result in higher pilot wages. Just because competition exists does not mean wages will rise - you might want to call your local econ professor to check on that. The Flops pilots may or may not get industry-standard pay. And what if they don't? Then what if Flex matches Flops' substandard pay? What then? How has the sheer existence of that competition then resulted in higher pay for frac pilots?

You are reinforcing the attitude that you deny having...example # 2...example # 3...

So in your world, wanting one's company to beat the competition equals having an "I got mine, so screw you" attitude? If so, I guess I do, and I would never hire someone with your point of view. Your husband gets his pay, and as a result you get your time to spend here, and your kids get fed, because NetJets exists and pays him to do his best for them. He does not get paid to help the competitors' pilots improve their lots in life. He does not get paid to empathize with our competition. Unions have their place, but in the end the company exists to make money, and to beat the competition. It is our solemn duty as employees of NetJets to do our very best to help that goal come to fruition. Period.

 

[hammer2]

I really just wanted nja owners opinion. I couldn't tell anybody who is better. I can tell who has a better product. I think the pricing is so close, that the product COULD make a difference. recovery time is an issue. Regardless of who is better, a good sales staff doesn't hurt. I just hope this gig last 15 more years then I'm retiring, and you will never have to read my post again!!!!!!!!!

 

[netjetwife]

I don't mind reading your posts and I hope the frac jobs, at NJ and elsewhere, remain viable for many years to come. NJW

 

[NJAowner]

Hammer/NJW

As I have said ont his board many times, frax will be around in some shape or form for a long time. Now that many of us have been introduced to and have become reliant upon general aviation, we will not go back. This does not mean prices can go wherever. I still fly commercial quite often. If I had half of the $$ posters think that all owners have, I would buy a few more shares! The simple fact is that frax fills the void between flying commercial and the great expenses and time commitment and headache of owning your own plane (and assuming we do not like playing Russian Roulette with the charters -- no offense to the Russians on this board).

Also, as could be inferred by a post on another thread, until the frax come up with a way to fly without pilots, there will always be demand for frax pilots. Middle level management can be cut easily; they do not fly. But as far as pilot salaries, it will always be a supply & demand issue. Finally, one poster has been looking at controlling the supply side.

Fly safe.

 

[netjetwife]

'Owner, I also believe that the frac business is here to stay. My post above was meant as one of my less obvious forms of support for pilots from other companies. It was an indirect response to UG's stated desire to see their "demise", as competitors.

I think there are sufficient factors involved to keep things dynamic, motivate pilots to deliver excellent service, and provide opportunities for other companies to stay in business. I want to see the other frac pilots get to keep their jobs and remain where they live. I don't think a frac monopoly--with no other place for owners or pilots to go--serves anyone but BH. I'm pulling for a strong industry, not just a strong company. People like to have choices. Whether we're talking about a mode of transportation or the company a pilot works for, having the option of going elsewhere gives that person more control over the situation.

 

[Ultra Grump]

...UG's stated desire to see their "demise", as competitors...I'm pulling for a strong industry, not just a strong company.

Any employee of a company who has his competitors' best interests at heart ought not to be long for that company. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, and for that reason I'm glad you're not an NJA employee.

 

[netjetwife]

Everyone knows that the economy runs in cycles, but most don't wish to see companies fall on hard times. If it turns out that a business had to close its doors, most people sympathize with those who lost their jobs. Pilots have little or no control over how the frac companies are run. Why not wish each other well? Since when does philosophical outlook affect job performance?

If I were a pilot I'd make an exemplary NJ employee. I'm very hard working, polite, and would look good in the uniform I'd hand over the plane clean and well stocked. At the same time, I would wish Options pilots well in their negotiations and encourage Flex pilots to turn in their cards. There are NJ pilots out there doing what I just described. The two attitudes are independent of each other. Withholding camaraderie might make life less pleasant out on the road for your fellow pilots in the industry, but it won't make or break the companies they fly for.

NJA is improved by how pilots perform on duty, not what they post in their free time.