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NJ or CS

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Humphreybogart said:
If you want free crew meals, go with NutJets. If you want a better quality of life, go with CitationShares. BTW, you WILL have to pay the useless union dues if you go with NJ, not a wise investment at all. Just my 2 cents.
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booger, how wise is paying for medical insurance, and not having a 401K.
 
Booger on the wall....

Humphreybogart said:
If you want free crew meals, go with NutJets. If you want a better quality of life, go with CitationShares. BTW, you WILL have to pay the useless union dues if you go with NJ, not a wise investment at all. Just my 2 cents.
Click to expand...


Why not?

Union dues are a tax write off for one.

Secondly, Union dues allowed us to achieve a 60% pay raise for me and Booger himself. You're welcome Booger.

Union dues have secured:

-representation for me on a bad day
-millions in supplemental life insurance for me and my family
-superior health and dental benees
-401K with 50% match
-7n7 off for those who want it
-aircraft and company training on days that I am scheduled to work, not my days off.

Should I continue?

Booger, booger.
 
Humphreybogart said:
If you want free crew meals, go with NutJets. If you want a better quality of life, go with CitationShares.
Click to expand...

Translation: CitationShares makes you pay for your own crew meals. Pretty weak.


BTW, you WILL have to pay the useless union dues if you go with NJ, not a wise investment at all. Just my 2 cents.
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I made back my whole month's union dues in overtime just today, thanks to my union contract's provisions for overtime pay on long duty days. How much extra do you make on a 14-hour day versus, say, a 12-hour day?

Those union dues are a drop in the bucket compared to the returns they allow us to negotiate. You'd be bitching about a $1000 winning lotto ticket, because you had to pay a dollar for the ticket.
 
I would go with NJ on this one. I believe CS will become for Cessna what Flex is for Bombardier. A marketing tool that they will allow to expand for a bit then keep at a small size.

If CS were serious about competing for market share, they would have had the X's online and cut off additional deliveries of both the X and the Soverign to NJ. They have done nothing but try to sell them more. BTW when the Cit 12 is developed, I'm betting NJ and not CS will fly them.

Just my two cents though.

Wanna build time and move on out of fractionals, CS.
Wanna career, NJ.
 
Forgot to say, Bogusart, nice seeing you back. That last arse rape management gave you must have went septic. Did the penecilin help?

Anyway, heres lookin at my W2 kid.

baaaahhhahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa
 
CE750 - CS wasn't interested in the X b/c it's not a good money maker. I know the head of Cessna A/C sales in the Southeast.....he told me personally that anyone operating the X has to fly it 1,800 hrs a year to break even in a fractional world. He went on to say that NJ avg's around 1,400. They are maintanance nightmares, everyone knows that. The Citation X is a bad ash airplane for sure, it's fast and it looks cool with those big ole' motors...but it isn't a profitable aircraft. Sov. on the other hand is a perfect airplane and CS is planning on getting as many as they can sell to owners.....

For you guys that keep saying NJ is better b/c of their size, wake up. Jesus people, look at the history of aviation on that one. Doesn't mean a darn thing....in fact, often the bigger operations are the crappier ones expecially on the customer service side.

Unions are good for protection only (a good thing). Other than that, the more you ask for..the more you will dig your own hole, it always happens eventually. If you ever worked for a major or select regional you know that first hand. Things at CS are ok enough to avoid a union currently, but I wouldn't be opposed to it if need be. Have to wait on that, but bashing us b/c we don't have a union now is idiotic.....then again, you have probably never worked for a company that treats you well so you're just plain ignorant.

CS is a great place to work, i upgraded in less than a year and make darn good money for just finishing year 2. I also live in the city that I WANT TO LIVE IN.....the other reason I chose CS over NJ. Commuting to a fractional job without jumpseat/CASS is for the birds....why would anyone want to do that?? You guys got your money and benefits, but you SCREWED the newhires on that one, no question about it.

Not saying NJ is bad at all here, just defending the b.s. said about my own company.
 
DBCOOPER said:
I know the head of Cessna A/C sales in the Southeast.....he told me personally that anyone operating the X has to fly it 1,800 hrs a year to break even in a fractional world. He went on to say that NJ avg's around 1,400.
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It seems to me that it wouldn't depend necessarily just on hours flown but rather the money being generated by the airframe. If the owners and cardholders are paying the right prices, the airplane could be profitable at a comparatively low amount of flight hours.

It's rather like how some airlines don't charge enough for their seats and hope to make up for the lack of revenue by filling up the plane. :rolleyes:
 
Problem is, the airplane isn't making money when it's sitting at the service center. So, now the X owner can't get his ride b/c of its reliability....now NJ is upgrading the guy to a more expensive a/c that he isn't paying for. The X is purely there for show...."I own the fastest plane in the sky, blah, blah.." CS did a cost analysis WITH CESSNA....and found it to be NOT PROFITABLE!!! Think "Concorde". As i said though, it is a sweet looking ride. No disputing that....
 
DBCOOPER said:
Problem is, the airplane isn't making money when it's sitting at the service center. So, now the X owner can't get his ride b/c of its reliability....now NJ is upgrading the guy to a more expensive a/c that he isn't paying for. The X is purely there for show...."I own the fastest plane in the sky, blah, blah.." CS did a cost analysis WITH CESSNA....and found it to be NOT PROFITABLE!!! Think "Concorde". As i said though, it is a sweet looking ride. No disputing that....
Click to expand...

This is a great ploy by NJs. Sell him the cheaper X, put him into a GIV. When his contract is up, he renews into the GIV. See how this all works. Can CS sell him a GIV?

I think this is why the B400 fleet is growing. This is the "bait". Once they bite, give the guy a free upgrade. Guess which one he will buy next time? The more bait, the more bites.
 
DBCOOPER said:
Problem is, the airplane isn't making money when it's sitting at the service center.
Click to expand...

I don't know how your company charges, but NetJets has not only an initial buy-in for an owner, but also a monthly management fee. Then there is an additional fee for occupied hours. So while I would agree that an OTS airplane isn't in and of itself productive, that same aircraft is generating the MMF and has produced a buy-in. Even for a cardholder, just having the X in our fleet has generated interest and perhaps sealed a purchase of a Marquis Card.
 
DBCOOPER said:
Problem is, the airplane isn't making money when it's sitting at the service center. So, now the X owner can't get his ride b/c of its reliability....now NJ is upgrading the guy to a more expensive a/c that he isn't paying for. The X is purely there for show...."I own the fastest plane in the sky, blah, blah.." CS did a cost analysis WITH CESSNA....and found it to be NOT PROFITABLE!!! Think "Concorde". As i said though, it is a sweet looking ride. No disputing that....
Click to expand...

I think that cost analysis included don't piss off the largest buyer of Citations by getting X's.
 
DBCOOPER said:
Commuting to a fractional job without jumpseat/CASS is for the birds....why would anyone want to do that?? You guys got your money and benefits, but you SCREWED the newhires on that one, no question about it.
Click to expand...


Hahha. Watever dude. We approved a contract that substantially improved the entire industry. CS pilots benefited too if I recall.

Newhires need to do homework before coming to work here, period.

Is the company to blame or us?

Newhires beware of NJA. Domiciles suck.

Enjoy your pay raise too. You're welcome.:beer:
 
I think this is why the B400 fleet is growing. This is the "bait". Once they bite, give the guy a free upgrade. Guess which one he will buy next time? The more bait, the more bites.

Guys, "bait and switch" is when you advertise the cheap price and then it is unavailable and sell a more expensive product. The B400 and Ultra fleet is what gives people their first taste of private aviation -- the most addictive thing known to the traveling man. One addicted, you want a plane with movies, standup cabin, longer ranger, room for friends and family. Especially in this post 9/11 world, once you fly private you never want to go back.

Admit it, even you pilots don't like to airline anymore.

Fly safe.
 
NJAowner said:
I think this is why the B400 fleet is growing. This is the "bait". Once they bite, give the guy a free upgrade. Guess which one he will buy next time? The more bait, the more bites.

Guys, "bait and switch" is when you advertise the cheap price and then it is unavailable and sell a more expensive product. The B400 and Ultra fleet is what gives people their first taste of private aviation -- the most addictive thing known to the traveling man. One addicted, you want a plane with movies, standup cabin, longer ranger, room for friends and family. Especially in this post 9/11 world, once you fly private you never want to go back.

Admit it, even you pilots don't like to airline anymore.

Fly safe.
Click to expand...
Actually, bait and switch is buying a more expensive, newer 400XP and delivering a slower, more antiquated Ultra as they are considered comparable. Isn't the Ultra the recovery aircraft for the 400? How often do the CXs recover for the G200s?
 
NJAowner said:
I think this is why the B400 fleet is growing. This is the "bait". Once they bite, give the guy a free upgrade. Guess which one he will buy next time? The more bait, the more bites.

Guys, "bait and switch" is when you advertise the cheap price and then it is unavailable and sell a more expensive product. The B400 and Ultra fleet is what gives people their first taste of private aviation -- the most addictive thing known to the traveling man. One addicted, you want a plane with movies, standup cabin, longer ranger, room for friends and family. Especially in this post 9/11 world, once you fly private you never want to go back.

Admit it, even you pilots don't like to airline anymore.

Fly safe.
Click to expand...

Hey man, I like that little Beechjunk, er...jet. And heck yes, I admit it...I HATE airlining. It's the worst part of the job hands down.
Maybe I'll see you in my little 400 if you ever leave that Ultra! Or have you swapped to something bigger? (I haven't seen you here in a while). Either way good to see you in here again.

Terry
 
XLS vs. XL for both NJA and CS

For both NJA and CS, what percentage of your XL fleet is now XLS vs. original XL? Are the fleets expected to be just XLS any time soon? I got a good look at an XLS last week - pretty nice.

I know the NJA pilots are paid a bit extra for differences between the two. Does CS have a similar arrangement or does it not matter?
 
What a waste of conversation!!! We all know Lears and Challengers rule the wild blue yonder.
 

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