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Nice B6 history lesson

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When oil hits $150/brl and spikes up to $170 next spring 2012-- http://online.barrons.com/article/S...791590055646.html#articleTabs_panel_article=1, what kind of contract are we going to be able to negotiate?

The losses this pilot group will incur will pale in comparison to what you consider "give-ups" during the last four years. You argue about our premium trigger being raised by 8 hours but fail to mention that we got a significant raise for the 78 hours we get paid now at base rate...

If you can sit here and tell me that ALPA will provide for my family and write the checks that are deposited into my bank account-- then I'll vote them in.
 
CNTRL-C we will revisit this next summer.

If oil hits $170 bbl No one would fly even if you picked them up and carried them to the airport. It would put most if not all airlines into a national crisis. If Jb were to declare BK ch-7 or ch-11 the PEA no more than a CBA is not worth the paper it's written on. Enjoy fighting that fight on your own.

Much bigger problems than a contract negotiation. Take your fear mongering elswhere.
 
FYI, Blue Bayou, our PEA's remain in effect until the CBA is signed. If we end up negotiating in a really adverse environment, then there's no rush to sign is there? The PEA represents the floor. We remain industry leaders in productivity and operational flexibility, and industry trailers in benefits and retirement. There is no "give and take" when we've already given all we're going to at the outset. For all the scary talk of "zeroing out the contract" and "it's all on the table", the simple fact is that nobody is going to approve concessions from the current PEA. We would simply wait out your hypothetical oil spike and continue when conditions improve. That's not an ALPA promise or OC prediction, that's my personal analysis of our position. We're in a much stronger position than you seem to realize.

BTW, A321's are coming in two years and we have no pay rate for them in our PEA's. Look it up. Are you going to volunteer to fly them without a pay rate in writing? I'm not willing to perform a service for which there are no contract terms. I wonder how anxious the company would be to settle negotiations quickly rather than park planes or defer deliveries when there's money to be made, all for the sake of frustrating the pilots?
 
Just a question, Dude. Without a CBA, what would prevent B6 management from having you guys fly the A321 at your current A320 rates?
 
Just a question, Dude. Without a CBA, what would prevent B6 management from having you guys fly the A321 at your current A320 rates?

We don't have a CBA, but we do have pay rates in our individual contracts. There are exactly two models listed, neither of which is the A321. No pay, no fly. What are they going to do, fire me for refusing to operate equipment we have no pay scale for? Bring it on, I'll retire 20 years early.
 
So I assume the pay rates are for the E-190 and the A320. They could just say, "the A321 is just an A320. Same pay rate." I mean, do you need a different type rating to fly an A321?
 
A 757 and 767 share a type rating, but they're not the same plane. If it doesn't say 320 on the data plate, we don't have a pay scale for it. That's my "interpretation". Sorry, must arbitrate for a different one. Might take years to figure it out. :)
 
True, but there is a significant difference between a narrowbody and a widebody. Are you telling me that B6 management won't try to apply the 320 pay rate to the 321?
 
Of course they will. And with ongoing negotiations, I wager that the negotiating committee will make few accommodations that could weaken our bargaining position. The letter of the contract says "A320". Not A320 family, A320 variants or Airbus narrowbodies, only A320. I, as a signatory, construe that to mean only A320 aircraft. The company, as the other signatory, would construe that to mean anything requiring a A320 type rating. They will impose their view, I will object, we all end up in (individual) arbitration in a few years and no matter who wins, it will cost millions in lost productivity alone. Unless the company wraps up negotiations fairly quickly with specific pay rates and we can all get on with flying airplanes.
 
Blue Dude is correct. My PEA only lists A320 and E190. I won't fly a 318/319/321 or a 170/175/195 unless I have an ammendment to my PEA with rates for those aircraft. Hopefully in the very near future I'll be able to reference my copy of the CBA in excatly the same manner.
 
While I agree with you, good luck with your theories. Unfortunately, as it stands each individual pilot will have to fight the PEA battle alone. Those that choose to fight may find themselves out on the street with no recourse.

And, THAT is precisely why you NEED a Union on the property.
 
While I agree with you, good luck with your theories. Unfortunately, as it stands each individual pilot will have to fight the PEA battle alone. Those that choose to fight may find themselves out on the street with no recourse.

And, THAT is precisely why you NEED a Union on the property.

That particular fight will only matter if there's a union on the property first. If there isn't one, we'll have already given away far more than a A321 override. :(
 
United pilots win $44 million union retirement suit

Published on January 22, 2010
http://chicagopressrelease.com/wp-co...ap-300x195.jpgThe Air Line Pilots Association International, in a major financial setback, agreed to pay $44 million to settle a lawsuit brought by a group of senior United Airlines pilots, according to an attorney for the pilots.
With the window for appeals passed, the settlement approved in December by a U.S. District Court judge in Chicago is final, said Myron Cherry, the lawyer. The United pilots objected to the way their local ALPA leadership council chose to split up a retirement payment in United’s bankruptcy reorganization.
Cherry said ALPA is expected to make payment within weeks. After legal fees and expenses, the 2,200 plaintiffs in the class-action complaint brought more than three years ago are expected to receive a total of $28 million.
A spokeswoman for ALPA, which represents 50,000 commercial airline pilots, declined to comment. The settlement potentially is a serious blow to the union, which already is facing reduced dues income amid airline failures, furloughs and lower pilot pay rates.
Although ALPA has a large insurance policy, its deductible is believed to be multiple millions of dollars, said one person familiar with the matter. On the other hand, if the plaintiffs had persuaded a jury to award them their claimed damages of $200 million, the union could have been bankrupted.
ALPA had $100 million in net assets at the end of 2008, according to its most recent financial report filed with the Department of Labor. That was down from $132.1 million at the beginning of 2008. ALPA took in total receipts, including dues income, of $233.5 million that year, and it disbursed $238.1 million.
Other airlines that sought protection from their creditors in recent years have terminated some of their employee pension plans without this sort of litigation. US Airways Group Inc. jettisoned all of its plans in two bankruptcy reorganizations.
Delta Air Lines Inc., in bankruptcy, terminated its pilot pension plan. But it and Northwest Airlines Corp., which Delta acquired last year, successfully lobbied for changes in pension law so they could freeze but retain existing plans and amortize their underfunding over multiple years.
The crux of this dispute arose when United’s Chicago-based parent UAL Corp. was in bankruptcy proceedings and said it couldn’t afford to keep its four employee pension plans, which were underfunded by $9.8 billion. The plans ultimately were assumed by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which now makes payments to United retirees.
United and its employees agreed to new 401(k)-type pension plans and the airline gave the workers convertible notes to help make up for shortfalls they would experience when the PBGC took over the pension payments. ALPA and United agreed that the pilots would receive $550 million in convertible notes.
The local union branch that represents United’s then-6,600 active pilots debated how to allocate the proceeds from the sale of the notes and ultimately voted to use a method that would reward all the pilots.
The plaintiffs contended that method provided a windfall to the airline’s junior pilots, who were the majority and controlled the local union leadership, at the expense of the senior aviators.
The junior pilots lost little or none of the benefits they had earned under the terminated plan. But the 2,200 senior pilots, who already had accrued sizable benefits based on their higher incomes and longer years of service, had much money on the line.
The suit claimed the union took more than $200 million from the plaintiffs for benefits they already had earned in their pension plan and gave it to junior pilots for benefits they hadn’t earned, a breach of ALPA’s duty of fair representation.
The judge last July denied motions by ALPA and intervenor United for summary judgment in the case. Days before the dispute was set to go to a jury trial last October, ALPA agreed to settle, said Cherry, one of the plaintiffs’ lawyers.
While United intervened in the case, it isn’t on the hook for any money. “There are no claims against United,” the company said in a statement.
John Mansfield Jr., a 27-year United pilot who retired in 2005, was the first named plaintiff in the lawsuit. He receives about $27,000 a year in retirement benefits from the PBGC, he said.
Because of a law–now changed–that pilots must retire at age 60, their PBGC payments were reduced from what they would have gotten if they retired at 65. Before United jettisoned the pilot plan, Mansfield said he had expected to retire on as much as $80,000 a year.
He thinks his part of the $28 million settlement will amount to about 12% to 13% of what he would have received in note proceeds had the union adopted what the senior pilots considered fair.
He said that probably will be the case for the others in the class. Cherry, the attorney, said the payment formula will lead to varying results. A handful of the pilots will receive six-figure one-time payments. Many are in line for payments of $25,000 to $35,000 and some will receive much less, he said.
Mike Glawe, a former ALPA leader at United and still an active pilot, said the settlement “isn’t going to reestablish anybody’s retirement security.” But he, another of the named plaintiffs, said it sends a message: “A political majority still has to fairly represent the interests of a political minority.”
Read the original article from Tribune News Services

I wonder, since the TWA lawsuit is currently in court-- how much that will cost ALPA (us) when they lose? (EST $180 million??) Oh yeah, special assessment... After losing Airtran and Republic from the payroll, they'll be happy to add us to their "B" Tier Group...

BTW, I believe the first derivative of pay when the 190 came on board was linear seat scale. So, as the 321 has 40+ more seats, it should equate to additional pay... We'll see, it's a good addition to the fleet.
 
Be sure to post how much the company has the pay the 3a group due to its gross negligence in reviewing the 2009 amendment and signing off on mathematically impossible numbers.
 
Be sure to post how much the company has the pay the 3a group due to its gross negligence in reviewing the 2009 amendment and signing off on mathematically impossible numbers.

That all came about because they gave a significant pay raise to the 190 guys without giving one to some 320 guys. Maybe they should've just taken that pay raise away once they figured out their GROSS NEGLIGENCE, then 3a wouldn't be a factor today...
 

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