Nice B6 history lesson

[Fubijaakr]

While I agree with you, good luck with your theories. Unfortunately, as it stands each individual pilot will have to fight the PEA battle alone. Those that choose to fight may find themselves out on the street with no recourse.

And, THAT is precisely why you NEED a Union on the property.

 

[Blue Dude]

While I agree with you, good luck with your theories. Unfortunately, as it stands each individual pilot will have to fight the PEA battle alone. Those that choose to fight may find themselves out on the street with no recourse.

And, THAT is precisely why you NEED a Union on the property.

That particular fight will only matter if there's a union on the property first. If there isn't one, we'll have already given away far more than a A321 override.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

United pilots win $44 million union retirement suit

Published on January 22, 2010
http://chicagopressrelease.com/wp-co...ap-300x195.jpgThe Air Line Pilots Association International, in a major financial setback, agreed to pay $44 million to settle a lawsuit brought by a group of senior United Airlines pilots, according to an attorney for the pilots.
With the window for appeals passed, the settlement approved in December by a U.S. District Court judge in Chicago is final, said Myron Cherry, the lawyer. The United pilots objected to the way their local ALPA leadership council chose to split up a retirement payment in United’s bankruptcy reorganization.
Cherry said ALPA is expected to make payment within weeks. After legal fees and expenses, the 2,200 plaintiffs in the class-action complaint brought more than three years ago are expected to receive a total of $28 million.
A spokeswoman for ALPA, which represents 50,000 commercial airline pilots, declined to comment. The settlement potentially is a serious blow to the union, which already is facing reduced dues income amid airline failures, furloughs and lower pilot pay rates.
Although ALPA has a large insurance policy, its deductible is believed to be multiple millions of dollars, said one person familiar with the matter. On the other hand, if the plaintiffs had persuaded a jury to award them their claimed damages of $200 million, the union could have been bankrupted.
ALPA had $100 million in net assets at the end of 2008, according to its most recent financial report filed with the Department of Labor. That was down from $132.1 million at the beginning of 2008. ALPA took in total receipts, including dues income, of $233.5 million that year, and it disbursed $238.1 million.
Other airlines that sought protection from their creditors in recent years have terminated some of their employee pension plans without this sort of litigation. US Airways Group Inc. jettisoned all of its plans in two bankruptcy reorganizations.
Delta Air Lines Inc., in bankruptcy, terminated its pilot pension plan. But it and Northwest Airlines Corp., which Delta acquired last year, successfully lobbied for changes in pension law so they could freeze but retain existing plans and amortize their underfunding over multiple years.
The crux of this dispute arose when United’s Chicago-based parent UAL Corp. was in bankruptcy proceedings and said it couldn’t afford to keep its four employee pension plans, which were underfunded by $9.8 billion. The plans ultimately were assumed by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which now makes payments to United retirees.
United and its employees agreed to new 401(k)-type pension plans and the airline gave the workers convertible notes to help make up for shortfalls they would experience when the PBGC took over the pension payments. ALPA and United agreed that the pilots would receive $550 million in convertible notes.
The local union branch that represents United’s then-6,600 active pilots debated how to allocate the proceeds from the sale of the notes and ultimately voted to use a method that would reward all the pilots.
The plaintiffs contended that method provided a windfall to the airline’s junior pilots, who were the majority and controlled the local union leadership, at the expense of the senior aviators.
The junior pilots lost little or none of the benefits they had earned under the terminated plan. But the 2,200 senior pilots, who already had accrued sizable benefits based on their higher incomes and longer years of service, had much money on the line.
The suit claimed the union took more than $200 million from the plaintiffs for benefits they already had earned in their pension plan and gave it to junior pilots for benefits they hadn’t earned, a breach of ALPA’s duty of fair representation.
The judge last July denied motions by ALPA and intervenor United for summary judgment in the case. Days before the dispute was set to go to a jury trial last October, ALPA agreed to settle, said Cherry, one of the plaintiffs’ lawyers.
While United intervened in the case, it isn’t on the hook for any money. “There are no claims against United,” the company said in a statement.
John Mansfield Jr., a 27-year United pilot who retired in 2005, was the first named plaintiff in the lawsuit. He receives about $27,000 a year in retirement benefits from the PBGC, he said.
Because of a law–now changed–that pilots must retire at age 60, their PBGC payments were reduced from what they would have gotten if they retired at 65. Before United jettisoned the pilot plan, Mansfield said he had expected to retire on as much as $80,000 a year.
He thinks his part of the $28 million settlement will amount to about 12% to 13% of what he would have received in note proceeds had the union adopted what the senior pilots considered fair.
He said that probably will be the case for the others in the class. Cherry, the attorney, said the payment formula will lead to varying results. A handful of the pilots will receive six-figure one-time payments. Many are in line for payments of $25,000 to $35,000 and some will receive much less, he said.
Mike Glawe, a former ALPA leader at United and still an active pilot, said the settlement “isn’t going to reestablish anybody’s retirement security.” But he, another of the named plaintiffs, said it sends a message: “A political majority still has to fairly represent the interests of a political minority.”
Read the original article from Tribune News Services

I wonder, since the TWA lawsuit is currently in court-- how much that will cost ALPA (us) when they lose? (EST $180 million??) Oh yeah, special assessment... After losing Airtran and Republic from the payroll, they'll be happy to add us to their "B" Tier Group...

BTW, I believe the first derivative of pay when the 190 came on board was linear seat scale. So, as the 321 has 40+ more seats, it should equate to additional pay... We'll see, it's a good addition to the fleet.

 

[Fins Up]

Be sure to post how much the company has the pay the 3a group due to its gross negligence in reviewing the 2009 amendment and signing off on mathematically impossible numbers.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Be sure to post how much the company has the pay the 3a group due to its gross negligence in reviewing the 2009 amendment and signing off on mathematically impossible numbers.

That all came about because they gave a significant pay raise to the 190 guys without giving one to some 320 guys. Maybe they should've just taken that pay raise away once they figured out their GROSS NEGLIGENCE, then 3a wouldn't be a factor today...

 

[Blue Dude]

The United pilots objected to the way their local ALPA leadership council chose to split up a retirement payment in United’s bankruptcy reorganization.

IOW, ALPA National is making good for the screw-ups of the local representatives. Think you can get a better deal suing the PVC? Or maybe you think the PVC is immune to making errors in judgment that could cause you financial harm? OK, you go with that.

 

[StarChecker]

I wonder, since the TWA lawsuit is currently in court-- how much that will cost ALPA (us) when they lose? (EST $180 million??) Oh yeah, special assessment... After losing Airtran and Republic from the payroll, they'll be happy to add us to their "B" Tier Group...

BTW, I believe the first derivative of pay when the 190 came on board was linear seat scale. So, as the 321 has 40+ more seats, it should equate to additional pay... We'll see, it's a good addition to the fleet.

Nonsense and lies....whether through purposeful deceit or ignorance is irrelevant. I have patience for neither.

ALPA has insurance policies to cover expenses in any lawsuits. ALPA pilots are assessed when a pilot group goes on strike, not to cover lawsuits. We will not be assessed anything to cover the TWA lawsuit.....next...

Once again, Republic is not now, nor have they ever been members of ALPA. They have been and are now represented by the Teamsters.....next...

 

[Fins Up]

That's the problem. It was too late. You can't un-sign the contract.

 

[Caveman]

LOCAL is the key word in all of this. ALPA National was not involved and yet they have assumed the responsibility and liability for the decisions of the LOCAL MEC. In essence the power and weight of ALPA National protected the MEC from personal liability. It also protected UAL because if the MEC was similar to our PVC the company would definitely bear some of the liability. This story isn't an indictment against ALPA, it's an endorsement of the protection they provide.

 

[Blue Dude]

That's the point I was going for. Thanks Caveman.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Jury rules against ALPA in TWA lawsuit today... Can't wait to see how good ALPA's insurance policy is for this one...

A federal jury in New Jersey said that the Air Line Pilots Association did not fairly represent former TWA pilots' interests when the carrier merged with American Airlines. The lawsuit, filed by ex-TWA pilots in 2002, said the union pressured TWA members during the merger discussions and acted in bad faith as it and the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American's pilots, negotiated a seniority list. American bought TWA's assets out of bankruptcy in 2001 for $4.2 billion. The jury also found that the Air Line Pilots union's "violation of its duty of fair representation" caused injury to some TWA pilots. The jury has not decided how much damages should be awarded to the former TWA employees. For more airline industry news, read Sky Talk at star-telegram.com/blogs.

Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/07/13/3220026/business-briefs-jury-rules-in.html#ixzz1S6iKIs9D​

 

[B6Busdriver]

Jury rules against ALPA in TWA lawsuit today... Can't wait to see how good ALPA's insurance policy is for this one...

A federal jury in New Jersey said that the Air Line Pilots Association did not fairly represent former TWA pilots' interests when the carrier merged with American Airlines. The lawsuit, filed by ex-TWA pilots in 2002, said the union pressured TWA members during the merger discussions and acted in bad faith as it and the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American's pilots, negotiated a seniority list. American bought TWA's assets out of bankruptcy in 2001 for $4.2 billion. The jury also found that the Air Line Pilots union's "violation of its duty of fair representation" caused injury to some TWA pilots. The jury has not decided how much damages should be awarded to the former TWA employees. For more airline industry news, read Sky Talk at star-telegram.com/blogs.

Read more: http://www.star-telegram.com/2011/07/13/3220026/business-briefs-jury-rules-in.html#ixzz1S6iKIs9D​

Welcome back troll. When you get screwed by the direct relationship, who will you sue?

 

[Fins Up]

I'm flying with a TWA guy now. He tells me he and many of the other TWAers are voting for ALPA regardless of the outcome of the trial. Why? In his/their opinions, a CBA is the goal here. The fact the ALPA is the only avenue for us at this point is a detail; a big one, but a detail nonetheless. Also, the laws, ALPA leadership, and processes have changed immensely since back then. (I hope I'm summarizing him accurately.)

If you have a lot of TWA folks and USAir folks still willing to vote for ALPA in order to secure a CBA, that says a lot.

There is no longer any question in my mind about the copmany's inability to protect my career. The "5 documents" and PEA have more holes than the dreaded swiss cheese model.

 

[Fubijaakr]

He's right, Fins. Bond/McCaskill was a direct result of the TWA guys getting screwed in the AA merger.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Welcome back troll. When you get screwed by the direct relationship, who will you sue?

You know what, you're right guys. I've been so screwed the last 10 years here at Jetblue, I should join your ranks. The last guy I flew with said I know nothing about ALPA because he's been at four previous ALPA carriers!!! LOL, he's right, but I'll take my 10 years without a furlough or major concession over his turmoiled career any day. Guys like him explains it all!!!

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

I'm flying with a TWA guy now. He tells me he and many of the other TWAers are voting for ALPA regardless of the outcome of the trial. Why? In his/their opinions, a CBA is the goal here. The fact the ALPA is the only avenue for us at this point is a detail; a big one, but a detail nonetheless. Also, the laws, ALPA leadership, and processes have changed immensely since back then. (I hope I'm summarizing him accurately.)

If you have a lot of TWA folks and USAir folks still willing to vote for ALPA in order to secure a CBA, that says a lot.

There is no longer any question in my mind about the copmany's inability to protect my career. The "5 documents" and PEA have more holes than the dreaded swiss cheese model.

We will never know what the 5 documents in its final form would've looked like because of ALPA's premature filing. The documents you first saw was only a draft. I flew with a PVC member who said they were about a month out from sending it back to the pilots to review, but "wooosh" a year's worth of negotiations goes right down the toilet with ALPAs filing... Great job guys. I can't wait to give something up in negotiations in our first contract for what we could've had for free if ALPA could've just waited a few weeks... I guess they knew our agenda and showed who was in control--

 

[Blue Dude]

You know what, you're right guys. I've been so screwed the last 10 years here at Jetblue, I should join your ranks. The last guy I flew with said I know nothing about ALPA because he's been at four previous ALPA carriers!!! LOL, he's right, but I'll take my 10 years without a furlough or major concession over his turmoiled career any day. Guys like him explains it all!!!

Look, guy, the last ten years have had their ups and downs, mostly ups. I fully agree with you there. But the DR has exactly no teeth if we need representation for a transactional event. There is an arguably small but non-zero chance of one happening here before we retire, but even a 2% chance becomes 100% if it happens to you. Do you really think that we stand a snowball's chance of preserving our current pay and lifestyle if the board decides it's in the shareholders' best interests to merge this company with another airline? Even if we do ultimately prevail in court, how many years will it take and how much will it cost us? No matter what you think of ALPA or how they spend dues, a 2% career insurance premium is a bargain and the fact is they've cleaned house and they're on a roll. DAL/NWA, UAL/CAL, SWA/Tranny, all going well from a historical standpoint.

Before you get started with irrelevancies like TWA or the UAL lawsuit, TWA was 10 years ago and they're only now getting their day in court. UAL was a result of misbehavior by the locally elected representatives, not ALPA National. How would you like to still be dealing with a 2015 merger in 2025? I plan to retire in 2028. I would never be made whole if I have to fight 10 years to get my own money back. The lack of tax deferred 401k growth alone would prohibit it, especially at the current industry trailing contribution rate. The 5 docs could be airtight, awesome, legally perfect, but they are precedent setting. Read: lots and lots of time, money and our pay and retirement down the drain while they are sorted out in court. You might be independently wealthy, I don't know, but I'm the household breadwinner and I can't afford to be a legal test case. That's really the bottom line with me. I don't like State Farm's internal policies, but they are solvent, offer decent insurance for the price, and I can't afford an uninsured loss. I look at ALPA the same way.

 

[Fins Up]

We will never know what the 5 documents in its final form would've looked like because of ALPA's premature filing. The documents you first saw was only a draft. I flew with a PVC member who said they were about a month out from sending it back to the pilots to review, but "wooosh" a year's worth of negotiations goes right down the toilet with ALPAs filing... Great job guys. I can't wait to give something up in negotiations in our first contract for what we could've had for free if ALPA could've just waited a few weeks... I guess they knew our agenda and showed who was in control--

It is very hard to believe the your naivete is real. (Even I wasn't that bad.(Quiet Fubi!))I guarantee ALPA didn't give a crap about when the 5 docs were supposedly going to be submitted, modified, voted on, whatever. Only a draft...about a month away....phantom goodies we "could've had in a few weeks"?? Give me a break.

I don't want to pound on you just for the sake of it but, holy crap; take the blinders off, man. Stop believing just want you want to believe. As I have said, I was anti-union/anti-ALPA for a long time. But removing emotion and looking at what's in writing, there is no way the docs and a PEA are going to protect my career or yours should there be a buyout/merger with anyone. I don't live in fear of the buyout/merger, but I have to be prepared for one anyway.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

It is very hard to believe the your naivete is real. (Even I wasn't that bad.(Quiet Fubi!))I guarantee ALPA didn't give a crap about when the 5 docs were supposedly going to be submitted, modified, voted on, whatever. Only a draft...about a month away....phantom goodies we "could've had in a few weeks"?? Give me a break.

I don't want to pound on you just for the sake of it but, holy crap; take the blinders off, man. Stop believing just want you want to believe. As I have said, I was anti-union/anti-ALPA for a long time. But removing emotion and looking at what's in writing, there is no way the docs and a PEA are going to protect my career or yours should there be a buyout/merger with anyone. I don't live in fear of the buyout/merger, but I have to be prepared for one anyway.

So what happened at Midwest Airlines then? Did ALPA just forget about them when they were bought by Republic? We have pilots here who don't even buy Short Term disability-- don't tell me that ALPA is an insurance policy...

ALPA is an old, dying, organization with a poor balance sheet and pending litigation. Their membership has been on a huge decline the last ten years, mostly due to all the furloughs they couldn't prevent or the members they couldn't help (USAIR). When Delta and United leave their ranks, we'll be left paying for Herndon's lavish lifestyle...


BTW that 2% will be nothing compared to what we could potentially lose in negotiations. First contracts are almost always concessionary in some form. Remember we don't start from the baseline of what we have now, we will be starting with a blank sheet of paper. The company will find a way to make us the poster child for the other work groups... With 20 years remaining, my dues will amount to at least $100000. Quite a pricey insurance policy... ALPA can not prevent M/As. It can only facilitate in the process and I've seen enough to see that they aren't worth my 100 grand...

 

[Dizel8]

BTW that 2% will be nothing compared to what we could potentially lose in negotiations. First contracts are almost always concessionary in some form. Remember we don't start from the baseline of what we have now, we will be starting with a blank sheet of paper. The company will find a way to make us the poster child for the other work groups... With 20 years remaining, my dues will amount to at least $100000. Quite a pricey insurance policy... ALPA can not prevent M/As. It can only facilitate in the process and I've seen enough to see that they aren't worth my 100 grand...

You keep say that first contracts are concessionary, but when I asked you a while back to show me some examples, none were forthcoming. Are you fibbing?

Of course, if by concessionary in "some form" mean they take away the Kew Shuttle but I get industry standard retirement, by all means, sign me up.

Yep, we start with a blank piece of paper, but untill all the T's are crossed and I's are dotted and the group accepts the contract, then the PEA remains the staus quo.

If the company wants to make us the poster child for the other groups, they can certainly try, but then, what does that say about management. You have probably heard the saying:"A company gets the Union it derseves!" Case in point, AMR vs. SWA.

As for your 100K, you might want to listen to the JAOC podcast and learn how much your retirement shortfall really is, or you could believe the company math. Entirely your choice!