Nice B6 history lesson

[Fubijaakr]

So riddle me this...does it bother B6 pilots that there is a non-Union outfit (VX) undercutting YOUR wages by $45 an hour?

 

[Blue Dude]

So riddle me this...does it bother B6 pilots that there is a non-Union outfit (VX) undercutting YOUR wages by $45 an hour?

Honestly, so far they're not in our peer set. And since we just have no idea what negotiations are going to look like, they may never be. I'll start to be truly upset if they are. That said, it's kinda sad that they have yet to learn the same lessons we did, and they'll probably have to learn them the hard way just like we did.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Honestly, so far they're not in our peer set. And since we just have no idea what negotiations are going to look like, they may never be. I'll start to be truly upset if they are. That said, it's kinda sad that they have yet to learn the same lessons we did, and they'll probably have to learn them the hard way just like we did.

Well, maybe they're just a start-up carrier like we were 12 years ago... If I recall, Captains started here at $78/hr... We currently make double that now-- I'd say that's some progress although I'm sure you'd say that we're still underpaid, overworked blue-juicers anyway.

 

[Fins Up]

Well, maybe they're just a start-up carrier like we were 12 years ago... If I recall, Captains started here at $78/hr... We currently make double that now-- I'd say that's some progress although I'm sure you'd say that we're still underpaid, overworked blue-juicers anyway.

It's not all about the pay rates. Mine is about where is should be. My benefits and job protections are not. Too many obvious holes in current and proposed PEAs and other governing documents.

 

[Fins Up]

So riddle me this...does it bother B6 pilots that there is a non-Union outfit (VX) undercutting YOUR wages by $45 an hour?

Does giving away mainline AS routes to Horizon bother you?

 

[Blue Dude]

I'd say that's some progress although I'm sure you'd say that we're still underpaid, overworked blue-juicers anyway.

Don't be too quick to put words in my mouth. I think we're fairly paid - at the moment - and if you're overworked, quit picking up so much open time.

I don't have all that much problem with present circumstances, not enough to need the hassle of a union anyway. I just think we're going into wildfire season without homeowner's insurance, and regardless of your opinion of ALPA, even crappy "insurance" is far better than none. That alone is worth at least 1.95% to me.

 

[Blue Dude]

Well, maybe they're just a start-up carrier like we were 12 years ago... If I recall, Captains started here at $78/hr... We currently make double that now-- I'd say that's some progress...

Where are you getting double from? Another apples to oranges comparison? Inflation has driven wages up in *non-constant* dollars and the industry average has come down quite a bit. So if we're average now it's largely not company generosity that's at work here.

$78 in 1999 is about $100 now. Current year 1 Airbus pay is about $140. Which is 40%, not 100%.

BTW, year 1 pay was $110 in 2001. This wasn't corrected until 2009, after the JBPA drive. Coincidence? Corrected for inflation, that $110 was $134 in 2009, when it was raised to $140. Oh happy day, a 4% raise, not retroactive at all over the previous 8 years. Progress? Double pay? Are you serious?

 

[Fubijaakr]

Honestly, so far they're not in our peer set. And since we just have no idea what negotiations are going to look like, they may never be. I'll start to be truly upset if they are. That said, it's kinda sad that they have yet to learn the same lessons we did, and they'll probably have to learn them the hard way just like we did.

Well, they just don't overlap routes. But, I guarantee you, when you go to negotiate that first CBA, B6 management is going to try to make the argument that they're a domestic A320 operator and, as such, they should be included in the "market rate" equation.

You know better than I how much this Union drive has revealed your managers to be clones of all the other scumbag airline managers in the industry today.

Does giving away mainline AS routes to Horizon bother you?

Of course it does. Wanna know what upsets me MORE? Subcontracting those same routes to Skywest using Air Group jets. Your lesson? Make DAMN SURE your NC writes strong scope language into your first contract.

We still have the weakest scope language in the industry because, until now, it wasn't an important issue to the rank and file. Nothing like concrete evidence that AAG has no qualms about subcontracting our flying.

 

[TommyG]

I'm curious as to what ALPA brings to the table that a JBPA couldn't? If the argument is about pay then ALPA loses hands down. Insurance can be worked out, look at SWAPA. ALPA represents too many pilot groups and is even in bred under the same company. Trans States is a perfect example. If the Trans States pilots strike then Compass pilots should too, but that would never happen. When Spirit went on strike, the argument could be made for all ALPA pilots to strike. That's uniformity and the power of the union as a whole. But, no. We all pay our dues and hope for a pay raise and that we don't lose more scope to brand new 100 seat fuel efficient RJ's. HA! Not to mention having ALPA represent two pilot groups that are wholly owned by the same company. Who's best interest is best? I'm pro union, but not pro ALPA. In today's world, the role of the union has played itself out. Federal regulation and work rules make it in managements best interests to have a positive relationship with labor. The union can further labor's happiness by providing a safety net for medical issues, loss of wages due to injury and other human workplace issues that require some form of representation. A happy labor group equals efficient safe employees, and will result in a better product or service and happier customers. Talk to some ATA, Aloha,TWA or Midwest pilots about that. ALPA did a great job highlighting their absolute worst decade of performance in this month's ALPA Magazine. Now I have some kindling to start my first Winter chill fire this Fall.

 

[Blue Dude]

I'm curious as to what ALPA brings to the table that a JBPA couldn't?

Money to start up and operate the union. So much funding wouldn't have been necessary with the cordial and respectful relationship JBPA wished to have, but management made it clear that they considered JBPA an extreme negative influence and the equivalent of a declaration of war on JetBlue.

It's too bad really. We could have been putting the finishing touches on our first contract by now, with all of us facing the same direction with most of the glaring weaknesses of our non-union structure addressed. Instead, we got a one time pay bump to industry average. Some exec heads rolled because even average was considered too rich, a result of which was that the raise was at least partly recovered by unilateral work rules changes. We also got to "collaborate", not negotiate, on a soup sandwich called the five documents that didn't even cover most of the basics. Pay rates aside, we're no better and arguably worse than we were in early 2009. What an enormous distraction and waste of time. Can we just get back to kicking major butt again without worrying about whether the whole thing is going to get yanked out from under us if some venture capital firm next week thinks we're a good play as merger fodder?

Federal regulation and work rules make it in managements best interests to have a positive relationship with labor.

True in an ideal world, but what happens when pilot and management interests diverge? It does happen, obviously. The failures that have become apparent are failures to accommodate conflicting goals, if not to everyone's satisfaction, then at least toward some closure. But there's been nothing done in a number of areas. There's no movement because there's no incentive for the company to move. It's only now that a vote is again imminent that we're seeing a scramble to produce anything resembling a working solution, and even that's half-baked and full of obvious holes. Where have all these execs we've been hearing from lately been the past two and a half years? I thought they heard us, and we were to give them one more chance. No, it's too little, too late. We won't be fooled again.

 

[Fins Up]

Tommy my friend. I have never been a fan of unions or particularly of ALPA. I think in part it's another big bloated beaurocracy(sp?) That wants my money. Buuuuuuut, there is currently no other option for us. The JBPA ship sailed long ago. If management had shown the smallest inkling of support for an in-house union, it probably wold have been voted in. As far as insurance or any other benefits pilots at most carriers anjoy that we don't, there is no legal "workaround".

I swore I'd never vote for ALPA but I'm going to eat my words and do just that. It will be a sad dau for me because I hoped the company would do more to prevent the need for a union, but what they did in most cases went the other direction. There is nothing they could or will do to convince me they are looking out for my career The only thing "transparent" I see these days is the spin they put on the major issues. Sad but true.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Hey, Fins, I feel your pain. You put your trust in management and management screwed you. Welcome to the airline business.

Without a CBA, you have NO protection when big Dave decides to put the pork to you.

 

[Fins Up]

Hey, Fins, I feel your pain. You put your trust in management and management screwed you. Welcome to the airline business.

Without a CBA, you have NO protection when big Dave decides to put the pork to you.

I have no problem with Dave or the rest of them on a personal level. They have made "business decisions" in order to do what they think is best - such as doing away with stock options for new-hires, cutting the company stock purchase plan discount, raising the premium pay trigger by eight hours, doing away with "13:30's", etc. Now I have to make my own business decision to do what I think is best for my personal "company".

"13:30's" were trips that were two legs ending in red-eye that paid a few more hours credit than what was flown.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I have no problem with Dave or the rest of them on a personal level. They have made "business decisions" in order to do what they think is best - such as doing away with stock options for new-hires, cutting the company stock purchase plan discount, raising the premium pay trigger by eight hours, doing away with "13:30's", etc. Now I have to make my own business decision to do what I think is best for my personal "company".

"13:30's" were trips that were two legs ending in red-eye that paid a few more hours credit than what was flown.

Fins, you can thank "dr" bill craine for that fine piece of management wannabe work. Make sure you say 'Thanks Bill, for taking money out of my pocket, 'preciate that!!, next time you have the privilege of seeing him in the crew lounge or online!!

 

[Fins Up]

Oh yes. I am familiar some of the good doctor's great ideas on how to save the company from greedy pilots. I take comfort knowing that he will have no place on any committee after the union is voted in. I suppose he still could push numbers for management against the pilots as he does now and be known as a true and complete traitor though.