News story on SLI NWA and Delta

[MCDU]

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/10/06/pilotstalk/

Enjoy

M

 

[General Lee]

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/10/06/pilotstalk/

Enjoy

M

This is an old article. We have one more group of days for testimony (starting Monday) in LA, and then a decision will be given by Dec 8th, not Nov 20th as the article states.

NWA's lawyer represented USAir East in their arbitration, while our lawyer represented America West. Also, this is the first time NWA has advocated DOH. In the Republic merger, NALPA wanted a ratio list (I've got the testimony to prove it), but Roberts gave DOH with 20 year fences, and we know how fair that was.... With talks with Continental, NALPA also advocated ratios. This is the first time, since they are smaller, that they have wanted DOH. We will see how it goes....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[dbrownie]

General L

We have received memo that NWA is looking

at a "dynamic list" not pure DOH.


Perhaps a blended list with considerations

for years of service, upcomming retirements?


I hope we get this done and put it behind us.

The 20 year fence re-opens bad wounds for 20

years.

DB

 

[Buzo]

This is an old article. We have one more group of days for testimony (starting Monday) in LA, and then a decision will be given by Dec 8th, not Nov 20th as the article states.

NWA's lawyer represented USAir East in their arbitration, while our lawyer represented America West. Also, this is the first time NWA has advocated DOH. In the Republic merger, NALPA wanted a ratio list (I've got the testimony to prove it), but Roberts gave DOH with 20 year fences, and we know how fair that was.... With talks with Continental, NALPA also advocated ratios. This is the first time, since they are smaller, that they have wanted DOH. We will see how it goes....



Bye Bye---General Lee

The hearings actually started yesterday, and conclude on monday.

 

[General Lee]

The hearings actually started yesterday, and conclude on monday.

Really? I thought they started on the 17th?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General L

We have received memo that NWA is looking

at a "dynamic list" not pure DOH.


Perhaps a blended list with considerations

for years of service, upcomming retirements?


I hope we get this done and put it behind us.

The 20 year fence re-opens bad wounds for 20

years.

DB

Well, a dynamic list would have to be done for both parties, because NWA's retirements in the short term are less in number than the DL retirements in the long term. That wouldn't really make sense, and people moving from one spot in the list to another, and then other people leap frogging them would be a logistical nightmare. Attrition has NEVER been used in any SLI, and that was stated on the stand.

I don't think there will be any long fences either. Delta doesn't want that, and probably is pushing for the shortest fences as possible.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

Well, a dynamic list would have to be done for both parties, because NWA's retirements in the short term are less in number than the DL retirements in the long term. That wouldn't really make sense, and people moving from one spot in the list to another, and then other people leap frogging them would be a logistical nightmare. Attrition has NEVER been used in any SLI, and that was stated on the stand.

I don't think there will be any long fences either. Delta doesn't want that, and probably is pushing for the shortest fences as possible.

Bye Bye--General Lee

A dynamic list wouldn't be hard at all. NWA pilots would only fill NWA positions and DAL pilots would only fill DAL positions--indefinitely. You would always advance with attrition from your pre-merger list.

IE....
Former DAL pilots would always hold positions 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 11, 12......
Former NWA pilots would always hold positions 2, 5, 7, 9, 10.....

It would be approx 7 DAL positions per 5 NWA positions and one would only move into those positions reserved for his/her list as attrition occurs. The designateed slots at the bottom of each list would expire with each retirement.

A concept such as this was discussed while working towards a negotiated settlement. Apparently, the arbitrators found it interesting enough that they left the floor open if any one was interested in introducing this concept as the arbitrated list would only consist of testimony from the arbitration process and not the mediated negotiations.

Schwanker

 

[General Lee]

A dynamic list wouldn't be hard at all. NWA pilots would only fill NWA positions and DAL pilots would only fill DAL positions--indefinitely. You would always advance with attrition from your pre-merger list.

IE....
Former DAL pilots would always hold positions 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 11, 12......
Former NWA pilots would always hold positions 2, 5, 7, 9, 10.....

It would be approx 7 DAL positions per 5 NWA positions and one would only move into those positions reserved for his/her list as attrition occurs. The designateed slots at the bottom of each list would expire with each retirement.

A concept such as this was discussed while working towards a negotiated settlement. Apparently, the arbitrators found it interesting enough that they left the floor open if any one was interested in introducing this concept as the arbitrated list would only consist of testimony from the arbitration process and not the mediated negotiations.

Schwanker

Did USAir East pilots get a Dynamic list? No, no they did not. Did they want one? Yes. Didn't your own lawyer represent them too? Yes, yes he did. I doubt you will get one. Where are all of those retirements you said would happen, anyway?

And, a negotiated settlement has NOT happen. I wonder why? The arbitrators are probably all ears when it comes to any idea, but that doesn't mean they have to start a new trend that has never been done before. We obviously didn't go for it, or there would have been a settlement. We probably gave good reasons why....probably because it always would divide the group. There would always be that "deal" in the backround. (Kinda just like the Roberts award and the 20 year fence krap)

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Schwanker]

Did USAir East pilots get a Dynamic list? No, no they did not. Did they want one? Yes. Didn't your own lawyer represent them too? Yes, yes he did. I doubt you will get one. Where are all of those retirements you said would happen, anyway?

And, a negotiated settlement has NOT happen. I wonder why? The arbitrators are probably all ears when it comes to any idea, but that doesn't mean they have to start a new trend that has never been done before. We obviously didn't go for it, or there would have been a settlement. We probably gave good reasons why....

Bye Bye---General Lee

You don't need to sell me anything on this board...your merger committee needs to sell your position to the arbitrators. Apparently, the arbitrators were receptive to the idea of a dynamic list. I'm not sure why you insist NWA is a USAir replica, but you know quite well NWA was not a failing enterprise which DAL rescued and you also know quite well the list awarded in that case is widely criticized by everyone except form AWA pilots. I sure hope you don't expect a repeat or you may end up in a severe depression.

Why is your sided against dynamic seniorty? It's because the attrition at NWA is much greater than DAL. I've looked at the crystal ball, and I fair much better under relative with dynamic than with DOH. This is strictly due to NWA attitrion. Everyone's mileage will differ depending on several variables (age, DOH, hiring patterns...). You like to preach DAL retirements are superior long term to NWA. If so, you should be in favor of the dynamic concept as well--but you're not. Wonder why? Fortunately, three wise men will give us a list in a few weeks. If you really have your hopes up for your slotted ratios, I know some good anti-suicide counselors who can help you out. It just isn't going to happen. When asked if placing 2008 hires ahead of 2000 hires was fair, you own DALPA rep couldn't even answer the question. You lost a lot of credibility with the arbitrators with DALPA's lopsided proposal. Truth will be shown soon enough. Take care.
Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

Where are all of those retirements you said would happen, anyway?

Bye Bye---General Lee

BTW, you'll never see anywhere where I claimed there to be huge retirements prior to DCC. I read it as well, but I think there was some kool-aide drinking going on.

Back to USAir/AWA, is it your position this was a good SLI award? That's an easy yes/no question.

Also, do you equate NWA with USAir going into their merger? Another easy one.

Schwanker

 

[General Lee]

You don't need to sell me anything on this board...your merger committee needs to sell your position to the arbitrators. Apparently, the arbitrators were receptive to the idea of a dynamic list. I'm not sure why you insist NWA is a USAir replica, but you know quite well NWA was not a failing enterprise which DAL rescued and you also know quite well the list awarded in that case is widely criticized by everyone except form AWA pilots. I sure hope you don't expect a repeat or you may end up in a severe depression.

Why is your sided against dynamic seniorty? It's because the attrition at NWA is much greater than DAL. I've looked at the crystal ball, and I fair much better under relative with dynamic than with DOH. This is strictly due to NWA attitrion. Everyone's mileage will differ depending on several variables (age, DOH, hiring patterns...). You like to preach DAL retirements are superior long term to NWA. If so, you should be in favor of the dynamic concept as well--but you're not. Wonder why? Fortunately, three wise men will give us a list in a few weeks. If you really have your hopes up for your slotted ratios, I know some good anti-suicide counselors who can help you out. It just isn't going to happen. When asked if placing 2008 hires ahead of 2000 hires was fair, you own DALPA rep couldn't even answer the question. You lost a lot of credibility with the arbitrators with DALPA's lopsided proposal. Truth will be shown soon enough. Take care.
Schwanker

I can tell you your attrition is greater in the near term, not the long term. I have the numbers to prove it. As far as the arbitrators go, they have to be sold on certain ideas, and I am sure they will listen to anything. And, our lopsided proposal was given a lot of credibility last week. I can't really go into what was shown. Anyway, the truth will be shown soon, and the USAir model isn't only used for who was failing and who wasn't, but for like sized carriers. USAir was failing, but still got the top 500 spots thanks to what it brought to the merged company. You can try to say our case is different, but not in every way. If we expanded (paid money for 17 AA 757ERs while Steenland horded cash and looked for a merger partner) and hired a lot of pilots, should they all go behind your furloughed pilots? Is that fair? I think our Dalpa rep could answer that. That was Steenland holding back expansion, and that wasn't our fault. Looking forward to getting this over with too, and no suicide counselors needed over here. I still haven't seen any testimony favoring your side at all, except the thing you guys are placing all bets on---Bloch saying "we are equals."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

A dynamic list wouldn't be hard at all. NWA pilots would only fill NWA positions and DAL pilots would only fill DAL positions--indefinitely. You would always advance with attrition from your pre-merger list.

IE....
Former DAL pilots would always hold positions 1, 3, 4, 6, 8, 11, 12......
Former NWA pilots would always hold positions 2, 5, 7, 9, 10.....

It would be approx 7 DAL positions per 5 NWA positions and one would only move into those positions reserved for his/her list as attrition occurs. The designateed slots at the bottom of each list would expire with each retirement.

A concept such as this was discussed while working towards a negotiated settlement. Apparently, the arbitrators found it interesting enough that they left the floor open if any one was interested in introducing this concept as the arbitrated list would only consist of testimony from the arbitration process and not the mediated negotiations.

Schwanker

I'm assuming you mean this dynamic list, to be fair of course, would have to have NW guys moving up on the aircraft they bring to the merger (and their replacements), and DL guys moving up on the aircraft they bring (and replacements) as their respective attrition occurs. I would be fine with that. A long term fence, in effect, where we protect the equipment and retirements we expected pre-merger.

I still can't believe I'm reading the term "Premium flying" in the hearing. What a load of horse dung.

 

[Superpilot92]

these arguments are beyond pointless


back to football and beer for me :beer:

 

[Noserider76]

these arguments are beyond pointless
back to football and beer for me :beer:

True, but it is interesting and sometimes eye-opening to see what some people's version of fair is. I'm hoping the Charger's defense shows up in Pittsburg today.

 

[General Lee]

BTW, you'll never see anywhere where I claimed there to be huge retirements prior to DCC. I read it as well, but I think there was some kool-aide drinking going on.

Back to USAir/AWA, is it your position this was a good SLI award? That's an easy yes/no question.

Also, do you equate NWA with USAir going into their merger? Another easy one.

Schwanker

It was a fair award, since it took into account what was brought to the table, and gave the remaining pilots a position that they were in before the merger. If you were the bottom USAIr East pilot or the bottom AWA guy, you stayed at the bottom. The top 500 guys benefited because they brought something that was not had at AWA prior to the merger.

As far as equating NWA with USAir, not totally. I look at it as two equal sized companies (AWA and USAir were very close in size). One brought INTL into the picture, and the other one was a little more stable financially when they merged. As Bloch says, we are equal financially (not one saving the other), and we both fly INTL flights, but one is bringing more widebodies and newer planes, with more orders that will come to fruition. The other has older planes that will retire sooner, and those planes pay the least. Bringing a lot of the lowest paying plane should place someone at the bottom as a majority, and I think that is one of the reasons why we went with relative seniority after the bottom 400. The credibility of our stance increased a bit last week, and we will have to see how it goes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

The credibility of our stance increased a bit last week, and we will have to see how it goes.

I heard just the opposite. Funny how that works. Glad to see you think your award is just because of what attorney you are using. Your arguments are laughable.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

It's kind of like NWALPA is holding a duece and a five and going ALL IN. Sometimes it works ;-)

 

[clippyrip]

It's kind of like NWALPA is holding a duece and a five and going ALL IN. Sometimes it works ;-)

I think of it more like a game of Hearts. DALPA is attempting to shoot the moon. It will work great if the arbitrators give you the moon and not so much if they don't. We'll see....

It might be worth mentally prepping for something less then what your boys have decided to stick their feet in the sand on.

 

[General Lee]

I think of it more like a game of Hearts. DALPA is attempting to shoot the moon. It will work great if the arbitrators give you the moon and not so much if they don't. We'll see....

It might be worth mentally prepping for something less then what your boys have decided to stick their feet in the sand on.

You guys have ditched DOH and are now looking for a dynamic list. I think you are the ones grasping. And, I just read the transcripts for 11-15 (I thought the hearings started tomorrow, and I was wrong...), and I thought our guy did a great job equating the 767ER to the A330, and throwing our salaries and the differences between them in there. RH did a fantastic job. NALPA switching tactics in the last inning sure shows something...... and the dynamic list would divide us for another 15 years---another redbook/greenbook scenario. I guess those guys are just comfortable having different factions in a "family." Come on!! Let's all just get together for one big hug!!!

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I heard just the opposite. Funny how that works. Glad to see you think your award is just because of what attorney you are using. Your arguments are laughable.

No, it proved something someone couldn't remember. Funny how that works sometimes...We'll see.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

You guys have ditched DOH and are now looking for a dynamic list. I think you are the ones grasping. And, I just read the transcripts for 11-15 (I thought the hearings started tomorrow, and I was wrong...), and I thought our guy did a great job equating the 767ER to the A330, and throwing our salaries and the differences between them in there. RH did a fantastic job. NALPA switching tactics in the last inning sure shows something...... and the dynamic list would divide us for another 15 years---another redbook/greenbook scenario. I guess those guys are just comfortable having different factions in a "family." Come on!! Let's all just get together for one big hug!!!

Bye Bye---General Lee

The way i read it, the only reason why the stance was adjusted was because the arbitrators said neither sides proposal was going to cut it and they wanted to hear all the ideas. I am looking for where i read that.

 

[Superpilot92]

SLI Arbitration Hearings Resume
The last three days of SLI arbitration hearings resumed today in Los Angeles, CA. Today’s hearing began with a statement by arbitration panel chairman Richard Bloch. Mr. Bloch said that while the parties were not able to achieve a resolution during the SLI negotiations, which he mediated, considerable progress was made to narrow the issues and inform the arbitration board of the important points on each side. Mr. Bloch said that he heard a “Dynamic List” proposal from NWA and variations on a static list from Delta, but made it clear that nothing will be considered for the arbitration case that hasn’t been presented during the hearing process. Thereafter, he offered both sides the opportunity to restate their ideas and proposals from the mediated talks during the final three days of Arbitration hearings.

After Bloch’s statement, NWA Captain Greg Averill gave testimony about why the panel should account for the significant upcoming attrition of NWA pilots in their decision. He then presented an alternate “Dynamic List” proposal for the arbitration panel to consider. After cross examination of Captain Averill, the Delta Merger committee began its rebuttal case.

 

[Superpilot92]

Bottom line is they want to hear ALL ideas. Hopefully after ALL ideas are heard they will be able to really find the middle ground.

We'll see :beer:

 

[Fly4hire]

Bottom line is they want to hear ALL ideas. Hopefully after ALL ideas are heard they will be able to really find the middle ground.

We'll see :beer:

C'mon, DAL position has been the middle ground all along, and there is no where for them to meet in the middle.....

"The harder they come, the harder they fall, one in all...."

 

[nwaredtail]

You guys have ditched DOH and are now looking for a dynamic list. I think you are the ones grasping.

We were asked by the arbitrator what a dynamic list was (why would he want to know I wonder, hmmmmmmm) BTW, DOH is still our position.

, and I thought our guy did a great job equating the 767ER to the A330, and throwing our salaries and the differences between them in there.

Really, I thought he did an absolutely terrible job. interesting.

and the dynamic list would divide us for another 15 years--

Why, because you wouldn't get the cake and eat it too? Like a ratioed list by equipment won't do the same thing. Genius.

 

[Superpilot92]

We were asked by the arbitrator what a dynamic list was (why would he want to know I wonder, hmmmmmmm) BTW, DOH is still our position.

Exactly. I dont know why some on the DAL side are under the impression the NWA side just "gave up" on our position. ALL ideas are under review and the arbitators will decide on what is fair and whats not. December 8th cant get here fast enough imho. I am ready for this stuff to be over with.

 

[General Lee]

Bottom line is they want to hear ALL ideas. Hopefully after ALL ideas are heard they will be able to really find the middle ground.

We'll see :beer:

I guess we should also offer the Staple method for your people too. Why not? They may accept that one. Dynamic list? Come on now! You guys love dividing groups, it makes you feel better about yourselves I guess.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

We were asked by the arbitrator what a dynamic list was (why would he want to know I wonder, hmmmmmmm) BTW, DOH is still our position.

When he doesn't know what something is, that ISN'T good. You should have made up something else, like "Every Captain that wears a leather jacket should be awarded a 777 Captain slot method." He would have asked the same thing--"What method is that? I have never heard of it before..." He had also never heard of "super premium" widebody flying. Remember when he asked our lawyer if he had ever heard of that? Lots of laughter. I can post the transcript if you want me to.


Really, I thought he did an absolutely terrible job. interesting. I bet you didn't like it at all, neither did your lawyer nor your side in general. That's the point.



Why, because you wouldn't get the cake and eat it too? Like a ratioed list by equipment won't do the same thing. Genius. When one side brings more widebodies, higher pay per equipment, and more future growth through orders that will come to fruition, ratioed lists actually make sense. But hey, you are bringing more flyable DC9s than any other carrier in THE WORLD. Thanks for that, and they pay the least out of any plane on our pay rates too BTW.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

Bye Bye--General Lee

Funny thing is, if you actually read the testimony, he does know what a dynamic list is, he just wanted it on the record. Why is that do you think? Trying to find a compromise, maybe. Y'all should give it a try sometime.

I love how a dynamic list will "divide" the group but DAL's shove it up your A$$ proposal won't.

 

[General Lee]

Funny thing is, if you actually read the testimony, he does know what a dynamic list is, he just wanted it on the record. Why is that do you think? Trying to find a compromise, maybe. Y'all should give it a try sometime.

I love how a dynamic list will "divide" the group but DAL's shove it up your A$$ proposal won't.

This from the group that started with DOH and fences.... I almost threw up a little in my mouth there... What is fair is staying about where you are NOW in your current company percentage wise. Anything else is a windfall. We both have retirements coming up, just spaced over a few years. Your dynamic list idea will be shot down just like your DOH idea.


Bye Bye--General Lee