New WSJ article on awful Pilot Pay in Colgan crash

[UALRATT]

UALRATT wrote:



No I have a beef about stupidity. HE got them into it but maybe would've gotten out of it had the flaps not come up on them... the plane pitches over as the flaps come up... now the stall-fly margin is even further away and they now have even less altitude (1600 AGL up in BUF) to do it in. Had the flaps stayed at 10 or 15 where they were supposed to be I'd say as the plane pitched over to the right and nose down they had a good chance to pull it out. But since the flaps were coming up they needed to build another 20 kias or so before the plane was flyable. So read s l o w l y here guy... or girl. I'm not against women in the cockpit. I'm against stupid CA's and FO's that don't belong there and do stuff like raise the flaps during a deep stall w/o being commanded to do so.

All of you out there who don't think the flaps coming up during this was significant need to review Aero 101... that plane was very close to flying speed when it pitched over w/ the flaps at 10. Then it becomes a nose low unusual attitude which we all practice every time we go back to the school house. But what you don't practice at the school house is your FO raising the flaps at that critical time at 1600 AGL as your plane departs... because it's moot. Most of the time you'll crash. But if you keep your configuration then you have a good chance of pulling it out. The hard and sudden departure where it flips totally over and fully departs comes after the flaps are fully up as he's pulling to get out of it. That departure doesn't come before the flaps are moved but after.

He should've never got into that situation. I hope I never have to flight test that scenario... but we all could be there next week. If that were to ever happen to me, I hope my FO doesn't raise my flaps w/o being told to do so.

Tail

No doubt flap retraction compounded the situation but so did stalling the right wing with opposite control imput at 22:16:32. That also is in Aero 101 - up aileron on a high AOA wing. There is no debate about the flap retraction. It's a conundrum of mistakes and other factors that lead to this tragedy. However, you seem to focus much of your argument on the FO's incompetence. At least she had inexperience on her side but a Captain executing such a recovery effort is heart stopping. From a captain's standpoint you do share the responsibility for not scaring your FO. It's a responsibility that should be taken seriously. Pusher for the ATTITUDE, shaker for the STALL. Double recovery processes to be considered. He failed on both.

 

[firstthird]

Then it becomes a nose low unusual attitude which we all practice every time we go back to the school house.

You are wrong on this and yet you won't admit it. As a pilot it is our job to evaluate the inputs and come to the right conclusion.

We only do one unusual attitude when I go to the school house, so assuming a 50/50, we only get nose low half the time. We get a stall EVERY time.

The captain apparently messed up the basic stall recovery yet you think he would've saved the more unusual and extreme nose low attitude. whatever. You want to blame the FO, blame the FO, blame the flaps, blame whatever, but the problem seems to have been a lack of SA and a botched initial stall recovery. the reasons (fatigue, inexperience, poor training) and the follow on mistakes (raising flaps, not enough power, over correcting) are not the main cause of this mishap. but if you sleep better thinking it was the flaps coming up, suit yourself.

 

[tailhookah]

No... I've been saying that the CA screwed the pooch... but he may have been able to save it - up until and even after the plane finally departed - until the flaps were uncommanded up. After that they had no chance.

Fatigue, poor technique and inexperience doomed this crew. We've all been there and hopefully all can learn from this. I would like to see our recurrent go even a step further than the AQP process and spend more time on monkey skills. Drop the loft and use that 3.0 for better applications. We get to use our minds on the line every day w/ mx, wx and baby sitting dispatch.

I'm not stuck on the flaps alone in this accident. That was the last straw that doomed them. The CA didn't use correct technique and as a result put them into a deeper pit... the flaps was just the last shovel full of dirt. I'm very sorry for this crew. On any given night it could be anyone of us. We need to use this accident to highlight the safety and pay issues that lead to issues like this... but in the end, no matter how much someone is payed or the rest requirements change for the better you'll still have tired crews flying planes around. It's life. Commutes, family issues, scheduling issues and just unplanned stuff will always get in the way of safety. Nothing will ever change that....

I'm getting ready to commute to work tonight for an early go tomorrow morning... Ah, Bravo for Life's Rich Pageant!

BT

 

[imacdog]

BT, had the flaps remained at 5, the captain still would have held the yoke in his lap all the way into the ground. Unloading the wing was the only way they were going to recover from the stall, period. Had the captain performed a proper recovery, the flap retraction would not have put them into the ground.

 

[firstthird]

BT,
I find myself agreeing with most of what you wrote in your last post so I'll leave it at that. hope you have a good trip.

firstthird