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New UAL scope explained by ALPA

General Lee

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This came from the "other" web board.



The JCBA Scope Story – by KC Mueller, UALMEC Domestic Code Share Chairman, Scope SME

Delta Scope or a Scope Choke? Late in the summer of 2012 it became clear the United Pilots were going to have to emulate “Delta Scope” in the JCBA. (223 76-seat jets, 102 70-seat jets [325 big 223+102] and 125 50-seat jets) for a RJ fleet total of 450. 325 big (70/76) and 125 small (50). Included in “Delta Scope” was a substantial and permanent shift in flying from the Express to the Mainline via language, plus a new small Mainlineaircraft type. Added together, “Delta Scope was truly impressive and delivered all the goals held dear by Delta Pilots”; shrinking Express and growing Mainline under a new CBA that,when it becomes amendable, will leave the Delta Pilots in a position of strength regarding Express for the next CBA cycle. But while Delta Scope answered almost all the pattern bargained deficiencies of the last 20 years, your Scope SME’s saw one soft spot. The B717 airframe was already almost 15 years old. There was one issue still left to resolve before this struggle was over:The “gap-in-gauge” @ 100 seats.

Strategically, this RJ War was always going to 100 seats and it won’t be over until we have that fight – no doubt about it. That fight wasn’t quite over at DAL. If we could capture all the best of Delta plus fix that issue, we would have ended forever the growth potential of UAX and the ability of UAX to threaten the Mainline. While much can be said of the tortured path all network pilot groups have traveled seeking to balance jobs and marketing realities surrounding the RJ the opportunity to reflect and relax will never arrive until the 100 seat jet is safely in the hands of Mainline Pilots and the War is over.

That was the set-up when we began negotiating “Delta scope” in the summer of 2012.

This challenge was coupled with another. At United there were no 76 seat RJ’s. Delta started C2012 with 120, and all the improvements and protections for the Delta Pilots didn’t start until 154 76 seat jets were on the property. How do we get from zero 76 seat jets to all that Delta agreed to while also achieving what the United Pilots deserved at the outset, namely the security that transfer of flying from UAL to UAX was inverted by the JCBA? The company was willing to agree to the “Delta” end state: 450 hulls, 325 big ( 223/102 ) and 125 small, the seat and weight limits, the shift in flying, the no-furlough clause, the mileage restriction, the retirement of the 50 seaters, but there was no clear path to the 154th 76 seat jet. After that the Delta language could be copied perfectly. But we were on our own from 0 to 154.

It is because of this the Section 1-C-1 language in the JCBA is so complex and difficult to understand. We had to invent language that would get United pilots from 0-154 76 seat jets while also getting United pilots what they deserve ( shrinking UAX ) and then overlay that language on top of the Delta language. We have two scenarios, if you will, built into our UAX language (Section 1-C-1) and the Company will ultimately decide which path we travel. What’s Important for the United Pilots to understand is…. both paths accomplish almost the same thing. The Company will either deliver “Delta Scope” in its complete form or fall into a UAX “Scope Choke”.

Since “Delta Scope” is well understood and its value to Pilots very straight forward, let’s examine the language crafted that results in the “Scope Choke”; our nickname for the event that occurs should the Company attempt to deny United Pilots the “New Narrow-body” by never flying more than 153 76-seat jets. On Jan 1, 2014, the Company obtains the right to fly 130 76-seat RJ’s inside a new limit of 255 UAX aircraft of 51-76 seats. Currently, United flies approximately 190 aircraft that meet that definition, and they have no limit. 255 – 190 = 65. Without the “New Narrow-body” being delivered to United Pilots the limit of 255 will apply for the life of the JCBA. In just over 3 years the Company has scheduled over 150 50-seat RJ retirements simply for economic reasons. The 50-seat RJ clearly represents the “fleet of the past” while the new restriction is placed on the “fleet of the future”, aircraft of 51-76 seats. Moving forward from Jan 1, 2014, while the “fleet of the past” is dying the “fleet of the future” is severely restricted. Did the Company get 130 76 seat RJ’s? Not really. 255 – 190 = 65. The Company will get 65 76 seat RJ’s if they don’t get any more Q400’s or 70 seat RJ’s but after the 65th hull they are merely exchanging a 70 seat hull for a 76 seat one. That is 6 seats net, for each 76 seat RJ after the 65th. Not the target, but collateral damage we should score.

Besides that, regardless of how the Company allocates its 255 hulls within our new restrictions the 50-seat RJ fleet is dying. With that and no other action by the Company UAX is eventually headed to a new maximum RJ fleet of 255. Contrast that with today’s UAX RJ fleet of over 500. If the Company Mainline fleet does not grow at all over the next 6 years the UAX fleet will still shrink by almost 40% just through 50-seat RJ retirements. Even without the language forcing flying from Express to Mainline being triggered (same as Delta, not effective until 154 76-seat RJ’s) we are forcing flying from UAX to the Mainline or out the door to a competitor. Without all of “Delta Scope”, being copied by the Company the UAX fleet will soon simply be too small for the Company’s marketing needs. Once this “Scope Choke” hits the Company has only one way out: Use the language within the JCBA to grow the 76-seat RJ fleet further, the step we anticipated the Company might not want to do.

That brings the 154th 76-seat jet, which brings our “New Narrow-body” the rest of 1-C-1-f and -g, and the capstone to the whole strategy. On that day, United’s Pilots will have won the RJ war - our ultimate goal. After two decades of struggle for the dividing line between “Express” and “Mainline” we will have found victory at almost the same place the fight started. The original seat limit United Pilots imposed on UAX in 1991 …..75 Seats (Feeder Scope Mod, 1991).

The UAX language within the JCBA, regardless of which path is chosen by the Company (replicating “Delta Scope” or trying to avoid it - the “Scope Choke”), insures UAX shrinks. We ( Scope SME’s ) actually predict that before the Company will buy the “New Narrow-body “ they will try one last time to avoid it by … ASKING YOU TO SELL IT BACK TO THEM. When is the last time the Company asked you to modify your Express Scope for them?

The UAX piece of the JCBA improves the pattern in pattern bargaining and either improves on Delta Scope or crushes UAX. This was our goal; develop language that recreates and compelsthe Company to replicate the Delta Express Fleet in case they have second thoughts. Either way, with this JCBA the balance of power and flying returns to our Pilots. Then, with the 100 seat jet in our hands, we cement it there .




Bye Bye---General Lee
 

XPOO

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YAAAAAAAWN! Dont you have anything better to do on Christmas?
 

General Lee

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YAAAAAAAWN! Dont you have anything better to do on Christmas?



You mean take about 3 secs to paste something I thought some may like to read? I guess not. I am having a great Christmas, though. Hopefully you are too. BYE Dispatcher....


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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Jon Rivoli

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The problem is Genny, mainline can't operate a 100 seat airplane profitably. When reality bites, the judge will give management what they want.

Rest assured though, when DALPA strikes over scope, holds the line and Delta goes the way of Eastern, ALPA will declare victory. It will really suck for you being fifty something and unemployed and you next job sitting right seat in a 100 seat RJ with a 25 year old Captain. Or, maybe you can get a job at that refinery.

Bye Bye!
 

General Lee

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The problem is Genny, mainline can't operate a 100 seat airplane profitably. When reality bites, the judge will give management what they want.

Rest assured though, when DALPA strikes over scope, holds the line and Delta goes the way of Eastern, ALPA will declare victory. It will really suck for you being fifty something and unemployed and you next job sitting right seat in a 100 seat RJ with a 25 year old Captain. Or, maybe you can get a job at that refinery.

Bye Bye!

By the time that could ever happen, all regionals will be long gone, and you will be fueling my sonic cruiser, Jon. If you bring up the fuel slip up to the flight deck, please no pictures, we'll hand you a small water bottle for your great job. Now please exit the aircraft so we can push, old timer.

Btw, a certain mainline CEO agreed that mainline pilots could operate mainline 100 seaters, thanks to new fees that easily make it profitable, with well over $2 billion in ancillary revenue last year alone. (UAL made $5.2 billion in one year also) That must drive you nuts. Not as many financial pits due to these new things called FEES. They limit scope changes now. Sorry.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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Jon Rivoli

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By the time that could ever happen, all regionals will be long gone,

Long gone, flying 787's international with the gummers telling their Riddle Rat FO's about back in the day flying Metros.

and you will be fueling my sonic cruiser, Jon.

You mean second hand PT Cruiser, I hear they are pretty cheep and sure, I'll spring for a tank of gas to help an old timer in need out.

If you bring up the fuel slip up to the flight deck,

Is that what you call that french fry infested, nasty commuter car of yours?

please no pictures,

Can't help taking pictures of a train wreck, but I'll respect your shame.

Btw, a certain mainline CEO agreed told mainline pilots he wouldn't come in their mouth.

Fixed that one for you.

That must drive you nuts. Not as many financial pits due to these new things called FEES.

La La La, all is good. No recession coming next month. EPA's not gunna slap a carbon tax on the economy, Barry's not an incompetent boob hell bent on reducing economic outcomes to the lowest common denominator.

They limit scope changes now.

Who said this, "Get what you can through negotiations, get the rest from the judge."? Hint, he is an airline CEO.


Yes, you will be.:eek:

Bye Bye---General Lee

Bye Bye---U.S. Grant

;)
 

johnsonrod

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By the time that could ever happen, all regionals will be long gone, and you will be fueling my sonic cruiser, Jon. If you bring up the fuel slip up to the flight deck, please no pictures, we'll hand you a small water bottle for your great job. Now please exit the aircraft so we can push, old timer.

Btw, a certain mainline CEO agreed that mainline pilots could operate mainline 100 seaters, thanks to new fees that easily make it profitable, with well over $2 billion in ancillary revenue last year alone. (UAL made $5.2 billion in one year also) That must drive you nuts. Not as many financial pits due to these new things called FEES. They limit scope changes now. Sorry.


Bye Bye---General Lee

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :laugh:
 

General Lee

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Long gone, flying 787's international with the gummers telling their Riddle Rat FO's about back in the day flying Metros.



You mean second hand PT Cruiser, I hear they are pretty cheep and sure, I'll spring for a tank of gas to help an old timer in need out.



Is that what you call that french fry infested, nasty commuter car of yours?



Can't help taking pictures of a train wreck, but I'll respect your shame.



Fixed that one for you.



La La La, all is good. No recession coming next month. EPA's not gunna slap a carbon tax on the economy, Barry's not an incompetent boob hell bent on reducing economic outcomes to the lowest common denominator.



Who said this, "Get what you can through negotiations, get the rest from the judge."? Hint, he is an airline CEO.



Yes, you will be.:eek:



Bye Bye---U.S. Grant

;)


Good try Jon. Your expansion in the past due to mainline financial problems is now unlikely in the future sans a huge event like 9-11, thanks to new fees that are now commonplace. Then, add downward pressure by mainline CEOs on Regional airlines, new fatigue rules that will restrict a lot of your senior trips (continuous duty), and new hiring rules that will make it tougher to hire as the mainlines have to hire due to retirments, and your side of the industry is hurting. I hope all of you guys that want to go to a mainline (any of the big 3 eventually), will make it and then improve your lives through higher pay and better benefits. For those of you who want to stick around at the regionals for a variety of reasons, well, it may get very interesting. If you do choose to make the jump, just get ready to do walkarounds again in the snow. Hey, it's "good for you." I'm not making fun here, I am just looking at the industry as a whole and giving an opinion. I want the best for everyone, but right now, the Regional Industry is shrinking, mainly due to CEOs making decisions based on their needs.

Jon, I bid you.......farewell...


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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Freebrd

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[I'm not making fun here,

giving an opinion.


I want the best for everyone

Bye Bye---General Lee

What a putz, as though ANYONE has ever asked your opinion, EVER, especially on the Regional board, but hey keep posting JennyLeigh sweetheart and you'll make it to 30 million posts....PUTZ! BTW where's your girlfriend OysYoYo, she off in training again...PUTZ!
 

General Lee

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What a putz, as though ANYONE has ever asked your opinion, EVER, especially on the Regional board, but hey keep posting JennyLeigh sweetheart and you'll make it to 30 million posts....PUTZ! BTW where's your girlfriend OysYoYo, she off in training again...PUTZ!

Are you back from the Mekong Delta yet? Anyway, I don't have to ask anyone to give my opinion. If you don't like it, throw me on ignore, I really don't care. Btw, OYS is going to 757/767 training soon, I talked to him about a week ago. And guess what? You're not, probably for a long time. Enjoy Hanoi.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Freebrd

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Yeah I'm back from the 'nam Jenny. Nah I won't put ya on ignore but do have a question. Do you just paste your comments every time you post and then edit it a bit in an attempt to make it appear you're posting something new and earth shattering? Really you're posts are the same thing over and over. You are right though, I'll probally never see the 75/76 let alone a 717 as long as YOU keep voting to allow bigger RJs at the Regionals. PUTZ!
 

General Lee

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Yeah I'm back from the 'nam Jenny. Nah I won't put ya on ignore but do have a question. Do you just paste your comments every time you post and then edit it a bit in an attempt to make it appear you're posting something new and earth shattering? Really you're posts are the same thing over and over. You are right though, I'll probally never see the 75/76 let alone a 717 as long as YOU keep voting to allow bigger RJs at the Regionals. PUTZ!


Welcome back. Allowing a limited number of larger RJs back at the Regionals actually expeditied the parking of uneconomical 50 seaters that many people wanted gone. The manafacturer would take back a large amount if a smaller amount was allowed to be added. The smaller ones had leases that had over 300 of them staying well past 2015. Now, 200+ of them will leave, and only 70 larger ones added. Having those smaller RJs leave also took capacity out of the system, allowing 717s to enter (you don't want too many seats available out there, and having all the 50 seaters still on property would have done that) will actually take the current 76 seat routes, and allow the 70 and 76 seaters to fill in for the exiting 50 seaters. It actually allows mainline to recapture a lot of the current 76 seat routes, with a magical 100 seater (717) that we could not get before because current 100 seaters are either not being produced anymore (717), or may someday be produced (MRJ, C-Series), or not well liked by mainline. So, the 717 really fit, and it will have very good pay to boot. ($195 an hour for a 12 year Capt by 2015, when they all are on property) I'd say it was a good deal. Also, 1000 new pilot positions should be created supposedly.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Freebrd

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"Magical 717"! That's rich Jenny! Holy crap Jenny I think you're beginning to believe your own propaganda! Whaaaaatttttt a PUTZ!
 

General Lee

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"Magical 717"! That's rich Jenny! Holy crap Jenny I think you're beginning to believe your own propaganda! Whaaaaatttttt a PUTZ!

No, again you have it wrong. It's the "magical 100 seater" that everyone at mainline has been talking about for the last 10 years. Now, DL has 88 coming, and that is a good . No propaganda, actual fact. SWA will be paying more than $100 million to get them into shape too. Welcome back!


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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IBNAV8R

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The "magic 100-seater" will be flown by the outfit that can do it most efficiently. One could argue that "the contract says." I don't place much value in them anymore. Seems both CEOs and pilots (USAPA) will try anything to break a promise.

In the end, economics will win out over rhetoric, false security and wishful thinking.
 

BOX OFFICE

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Has anyone ever noticed that ALL GL does is parrot news articles and brag about parking RJs? In his 12 years and 16K+ posts, he has NEVER posted anything original. GL it a troll who is not even a Delta pilot. Yet you guys keep falling for his BS hook, line ans sinker. Put him on ignore and go on with your life! Stop feeding the troll!
 

PBRstreetgang

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Has anyone ever noticed that ALL GL does is parrot news articles and brag about parking RJs? In his 12 years and 16K+ posts, he has NEVER posted anything original. GL it a troll who is not even a Delta pilot. Yet you guys keep falling for his BS hook, line ans sinker. Put him on ignore and go on with your life! Stop feeding the troll!
Why,
He now has his/her/it has it's own Internet stalker, could be a first!
 

General Lee

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Thanks Box Office, who says she is a DL pilot but only hangs out in the ASA threads. Riiiight. Yeah, she knows from an anonymous website who is, and is not, at a particular airline.....she sounds like a pure genius, NOT...

And then there is PBR, on the "stalking" roll because she can't come up with anything original, and somehow thinks that might be funny. Well, the webmaster on here didn't think so. Sorry PBR, next time come up original material that has staying power, like why RJs are continuing to be parked due to economic reasons. You only get lost in discussions about that. Call up Box Office and try to come up with something.

Happy New Year freaks!


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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