New stop loss info out

[DaveGriffin]

trueblue;
I am sorry if I have offended you. Please remember that everything I know about KC-135 nav's is what I have been told by some very opinionated AF pilots. Maybe you should direct your offense at AF pilot biases and prejudices. Your strong words and negative thoughts are very hurtful.

 

[Draginass]

In the days when KC's had no/or only single INS of dubious accuracy and no radio updating, the Nav was indispensible. He also provided a sanity check for the 2 pilots. Further, since pilots received little or no training on radar scope interpretation on the 1950s radar, the Nav's expertise in wx avoidance was very helpful. During the cold war, flying very remote places without nav aids was a given.

Now, with modern avionics finally being fitted into the old KCs, the presence of a Nav is not firmly necessary.

Hopefully, the USAF will start replacing the 135s with a modern tanker like the 767-400, or 300 with the 400 off-the-shelf (OTS) cockpit setup. The increase in lift capacity and range would be great. If only the USAF could get over it's 2 engine phobia.

 

[Visceral]

DaveGriffin,
If you are going to attack me, at least have the balls to admit you typed your words, not some "Blackbird and Specter aircraft commanders" as you put it. This thread is about stop loss and I asked the question on who else was affected by it. IF you read the thread start, you would probably understand that. If you want to continue your attacks, why don't you go find the kiddie forums. This is a military forum for people interested in topics which affect military members or those looking to join up. I've enjoyed my duties on the tanker, but with Pacer Crag, the modernization has finally caught up with the Air Force, and yes the nav isn't required at all. THAT is the main reason I'm trying to get out of the Air Force and do other things. SEE, IT MAKES SENSE, DON'T IT!

 

[bssthound]

Dave Griffin,
I'm certain your "debriefings" with Blackbird and Spectre aircraft commanders are very informative. Too bad you haven't talked to any KC-135 A/Cs about the nav's job. I'm just about certain you'd get a little more favorable reply from someone familiar with the mission and has possibly had his bacon saved by a good nav when the INS failed over an ocean or hostile territory. Oh, maybe you could ask a receiver who was on fumes and looking at nothing but water below him when the tanker showed up.
Please limit your comments to subject matter that you have some knowledge of. Not some third-hand hearsay at the O Club.


By the way, isn't this thread about stoploss?? I realize some officer and enlisted career fields have been lifted. I know aircrew probably won't be for awhile but it is a start. Dubya really didn't have much of a choice. Give him a few years; this job might just be fun again!

 

[Spectre]

I know this thread is about stop loss, but let's make this clear. There are still airframes in the US Air Force that require NAVs. I flew gunships and was glad to have a Nav onboard. Even with dual INS and GPS on the AC-130H, the Nav had an important role on the gunpig besides navigation. He would communicate with the ground parties to coordinate fire missions, confirmed targets before we fired, and coordinated refueling with tankers. The FCO (fire control officer) who sat next to a NAV was also NAV rated. There will always be a NAV on a gunship. Other aircraft like the C-130E/Hs have NAVs who are instrumental to the airdrop mission. To add, since many pilots left the Air Force recently when the airlines were hiring, the only rated officers left to take Squadron/ Group/Wing Commander positions were NAVs. They're doing an awesome job!

Hang in there, stop loss will go away.

 

[Magic]

Navigators are the guys running the show in the B-52. They have total control of which weapons land where. As most of you have seen in recent news stories, the B-52 is an still an awesome weapon system. The pilots' job is to get airborne, onload fuel from the tanker, handle communications and land the plane at the end of the mission. Other than that, we go where the Nav team tells us. The varying array of weapons that can be carried by the B-52 is incredible. The Nav team has to maintain proficiency in all of them. There are many Navigators in B-52 squadron leadership positions today. This was uncommon in the past. There may not be many aircraft left that need a Nav to get from point A to point B but when the job entails more than that, the entire crew is essential to get the bombs on target. And that, when it is all said and done, is how wars are won.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Stop Loss

Come on, I didn’t make negative remarks about all Navs for all airplanes. You guys seem a little thin skinned here.

I disagreed with Visceral’s ‘I’ve been shafted” comments about stop loss and was responding with an alternative viewpoint that included a personal barb with sarcastic overtones. I don’t know about the AF, but that’s something I’ve become accustomed to gittin’ and givin’ on a regular basis for quite a while. I guess I need to buy you guys a few beers and see if you ever lighten up a little.

Originally posted by bssthound "Please limit your comments to subject matter that you have some knowledge of. Not some third-hand hearsay at the O Club”

Sorry bssthound, but the intell I gathered regarding the KC-135 was essentially correct. Dragginass and Visceral himself confirmed as accurate the fact that recent advances in electronic nagigation equipment have reduced (but not eliminated) the necessity of the Nav for that airframe.

 

[bssthound]

Sorry I took so long to respond but I was out in the sun too long and this thin skin just doesn't take well to sunburn!!

Yeah, the nav job is just about gone from the 135. GPS is not a nav's friend in regard to job security. Of course the box is only as good as what is put into it. The third set of eyes up front can be invaluable when something "just doesn't look right." Been there.

Imagine if the wrong numbers are put into a "magic box" and the crew is too busy with threat and terrain avoidance to realize they're dropping the jumpers in a bad place.

Anyway, stop loss is here and just about all of us have accepted it. I understand Visceral's frustration. I also understand that every day he puts on his uniform he'll give 100%. Like any good aircrew member he'll bitch relentlessly but will give it his absolute dead-level best.

 

[Blue Team]

Flying in the Gaurd or Reserves

With all this talk I am reading about stop loss and shortage on pilots, I am inquiring to you experienced military aviatiors on what you think my chances are of flying heavies in the ANG or AF Reserves in about 2 years. I have 2 more years of school left. Also, what would be the best route to take to become a pilot in a unit. I admire you guys and hope that someday i can be right there along side of you. I do not know much about the military and how it operates. I just have always dreamed of flying in the Air Force. America appreciates what you guys are doing and may God be with you and bring you home to your families.

 

[OPIE01]

Here is a Guard hiring website

Below is a website that has phone #s and guard/reserve units who are hiring for UPT throughout the country.

http://www.baseops.net/newjob.html

I wish these opertunities were there when I was graduating 20 years ago.
And if you join a Unit now they may have the money to pay you back for the college cost you spent already.

Please send me a personal message if you want more information.

 

[Sonic Cruzer]

Hey BlueTeam...

I'm working on my package/sponsorship for the September Reserve board.

My recruiter commented yetserday on the possibility of some of the Stop Loss being lifted in April. AFRC has already allocated UPT slots however placement is the problem.

Many of the units I've spoken to are overmanned right now. They still need to put people in the pipeline though if they want to avoid shortages when and if the Stop Loss is lifted.

Several of the units I've wanted to talk to are 90% deployed (so shaving the next morning rather than hiring is their most pressing issue). The larger heavy units are still intent on sending several folks per board.

Personally, I would worry more about putting together a bang-up package for the board than whether or not StopLoss will result in StopAccession.


Andrew
(will share notes)

 

[zman300]

Stop Loss and "Enduring Freedom"

Heh, heh! Has anyone caught the irony of what stop-lossed personnel who want to get out of the military are being asked to fight for? (No political/military rhetoric please! Just wanted to point out an amusing observation)

 

[DaveGriffin]

Re: Stop Loss and "Enduring Freedom"

Heh, heh! Has anyone caught the irony of what stop-lossed personnel who want to get out of the military are being asked to fight for? (No political/military rhetoric please! Just wanted to point out an amusing observation)

Let's see zman 300.........you make a political comment on a military board and ask for no military or political responses. Sorry, can't give you the pass.

I suppose your simple minded "ironic observation" is that some pilots’ service obligations are being extended beyond the expected separation date and this creates a type of indentured servitude. Guess what? It all’s been fully disclosed to everyone prior to acceptance of their commission and aviation training. Every pilot agreed to the terms. No surprises at all, it just so happened that some expected separation dates happened to conflict with our priorities for national defense.

There is no amusing irony, just our military doing exactly what it is intended to do.

 

[pilot141]

Jeez Dave, lighten up!

If you can't laugh at yourself (or your situation) then who can you laugh at?

Just because zman and his C-5 crew came up with this while droning across the pond for the fifth time this month doesn't make them unpatriotic! He's just trying to bring a little levity here - it helps you keep your perspective on life straight!

Fly safe, and have fun while doing it!

 

[DaveGriffin]

Harmless Ironic Observation

Your so right pilot141, we should all be able to laugh at the unexpected irony in our own situations.

In fact, here’s another side-splitting observation which should be good for a few chuckles, help us all lighten up as well as allow us to keep our perspective on life.
Doesn’t it strike you as particularly amusing, ironic and oh so insightful into the AF country club mind-set that as soon as some real shooting starts any extension beyond the expected DOS is viewed as unfair, anti-career, and a family hardship. Even when there are furloughs and zero hiring taking place at mainline civilian aviation. So let’s all just laugh at this entertaining lampoon and please, no defensive rhetoric from the AF types who my not see any levity in this harmless spoof.

 

[pilot141]

Dave,
As someone who has fought on these boards to bring another point of view into focus (ie from a jumper, not a pilot) you should appreciate different perspectives.

The "Air Force country-club" attitude is different than the snake-eater attitude. No apologies, no problems. Not everyone can jump from airplanes, and not everyone can fly the airplanes. It takes all kinds, even though we all wear the uniform.

As for the observation about "Enduring Freedom" - guys were bitching about deployments and being gone from home BEFORE the "real shooting" started. Why should they stop now? A bitching aircrew is a happy aircrew.

However, I think we are going to agree to disagree on this one.

Always bitching and always happy,

pilot141

 

[spongebob]

What I think is interesting is the way decisions are being made as to which pilots (or other guys) to keep in. Don't tell me they have put a lot of thought into this one...

In the C-5 community they only activated some of the reserve component pilots although they claim a shortage. Nonetheless, they are still sending pilots to SOS, ACSC and the like. Pilots fly their buts off and others sit home and mow the grass.

It is obvious the plans for stop-loss are a knee-jerk reaction until the personnel guys can study the issue and come up with more educated plans. Don't be surprised to see them RIFfing some of these same guys in 6 months.

The ARMY is paying AH-64 guys a bonus to stay in but they are Stop-Lossed as are other non critical pilot groups such as MH-6s.

Go figure...

 

[zulua320]

How's this for irony and lack of thought:
1. I'm listed as undeployable because I have a pending separation
-BUT-
2. I can't separate because of Stop Loss
-AND-
3. I'm affected by Stop Loss because I might be needed to deploy
-BUT-
4. I'm listed as undeployable because I have a pending separation
-BUT-
5. I can't separate because of Stop Loss
-AND-
6. I'm affected by Stop Loss because I might be needed to deploy
-BUT-
7. I'm listed as undeployable because I have a pending separation
-BUT-............ oh well, you get the picture.

Guess I'll continue to collect my $6500/month for reading the paper and going to the gym -- after all, I'm mission critical.


Z

 

[zman300]

"Guess I'll continue to collect my $6500/month for reading the paper and going to the gym..."

Hey, your duty day sounds a lot like mine! I'm making slightly less though, so I don't hit the gym too often

I'm in a similar boat:
- I'm forced to stay in an over-manned T-1 squadron because the AF is short of C-5 pilots.
- I WAS a C-5 pilot, but I'm still counted as one for manning purposes.
- I can't deploy; I'm not on "ready" status.
- I asked about going back to help out the under-manned C-5 pilots for the duration of stop-loss, but I can't because AF policy is to freeze all assignments for personnel with separation dates...UNLESS you pull your paperwork. Yeah right!
- So I'm critically needed in a squadron in which some guys beg to fly twice a week because there's too many pilots and not enough jets.

That's what ticks me off about the waiver process; the leadership doesn't tend to look at them on an individual basis.

Oh well, I'm with pilot141: there's no such thing as an aircrew member that doesn't bitch...period! What would life be like without our complaints? (Shudders) So, DaveG, take it easy man; I'm just trying to lighten a bad situation up. Stop loss may have been disclosed to you, but I'll be darned if I ever heard about it when I got my commission. "Should've read the fine print?" Perhaps; and dumb of me not to. But tell me the next time you read all the fine print on your next auto loan Take it easy.

 

[Visceral]

I'm back. I guess I should go back and look at the 300 documents I signed when I accepted my commission too. I honestly can't remember signing one that said if the U.S. was fighting conflicts and not an undeclared war, that certain "critical career fields" would not be allowed to leave at the end of their Active Duty Service Commitment. I do remember having to sign an ADSC every time I took a Masters class though that extended me 2 years upon completion. According to the latest briefing we got today, those guys at AMC do not have a plan in place on how to solve the stop loss issues. They know that every crew dog who might have been on the fence about getting out or not will have this on his mind. Plus, all the junior guys are seeing the AF at its finest. Who knows where the Pres is going to send us next, but when he asks Gen Jumper if we can support it, he will say yes of course. What he won't say is that the support will cost the Air Force in the long run. I guess stop-loss is good for somebody...civilian dudes. Without many AF applicants, there are more opportunities at FedEX, UPS, and the hiring regionals. Oh well...