New stop loss info out

[Visceral]

Well well,
I just got the good news today via email. My previously approved DOS in June has been cancelled. It is now indefinite! So much for MY plans. My reasons for getting out don't look favorable for a waiver either( I'm not going to a guard or reserve job.) Well, looks like I'll be headed back to prosecute the war in whatever God forsaken land we choose to battle next. Maybe I'll get passed over for Major... Anybody else getting stop lossed but me????

 

[deej]

write your Congressman and Senators

 

[jurisj]

Anybody else getting stop lossed but me????

Yup. All Army Aviation Warrant Officers in the following MOSs:
152C, OH-6 Scout Pilot
153D, UH-60 Pilot
153E, MH-60 Pilot
154C, CH-47D Pilot
154E, MH-47 Pilot

Or with the following Additional Skill Identifiers:
K4, Special Operations Aviation
K5, MH-60K Pilot
K6, MH-47E Pilot

Same thing... indefinite stop loss. It's really more of the Army's way of suturing a personnel hemorrhage than anything else.... the "War on Terror" just gave them a good excuse to try this heavy handed approach to fix the personnel problems.

I've still got my 6 year ADSO to fly off. Good luck to you.

Cheers,

- Juris

 

[roninpilot]

WOOOOOOO!!!

I'm an AH-64 Aviator and that's the first I've heard of a stop loss for 64 drivers. What is the source of your information????

 

[DaveGriffin]

Well well,
I just got the good news today via email. My previously approved DOS in June has been cancelled. It is now indefinite! So much for MY plans. My reasons for getting out don't look favorable for a waiver either( I'm not going to a guard or reserve job.) Well, looks like I'll be headed back to prosecute the war in whatever God forsaken land we choose to battle next. Maybe I'll get passed over for Major... Anybody else getting stop lossed but me????

Visceral;

I guess you didn't fully understand the part of your commission where it says you serve at the pleasure of the Commander-in-Chief.

Given our current circumstances, the DOD finds themselves at a bit of a manning deficit in critical areas.

Maybe Sec. Powell will figure out a way to attack Cancun or Aruba so you won't be inconvenienced at serving in a country where you don't personally enjoy the climate and locals.

 

[Visceral]

Dave,

It seems like your post is dripping with sarcasm in the end there. In the early 90s, I saw Captains and Majors being forced "OUT" and told "we don't have any work for you, here's 30k, don't call us we'll call you". Manning deficit...no **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, that's what happens when you RIF your people, cut production at UPT bases in half and close numerous other bases! Today, there's a 1-800 number for prior rated officers to call who want to join again. Don't pull any Duty Honor Country with me either. I have served my country for 8+ years. I have been overseas for half that time away from my family, but I still served proudly...no complaints at all. However, this is an volunteer force, and when George W allows the Air Force to use Stop Loss to instantly solve personnel problems, that is a big problem with me. I've served my time, and now I want to do other things.

 

[DaveGriffin]

The President and the Sec. of Defense are in the postion of being forced to fight an unplanned, major war with a military that has not been properly funded, equipped or manned for the past many years. That is NOT George W's fault. You are paying a small part of the price for those past bad decisions.
I am sorry that you cannot go home to civilian life, but there are people out there that depend on what you do to do their job. Those are the facts and those are the breaks.

 

[Delta Po Boy]

Dave,

Here's a few observations I made while reading this thread:

1) If I read your profile correctly, you've been in the Navy for 5 years. Visceral is nearing the completion of his commitment. You two do not share the same point of reference - what is important to him (no stop loss, job opportunities in civilian aviation) may not be what is important to you (increased flight pay, better opportunities for promotion, fresh bread in the box lunches). Listen to his side of the story.

2) I admire your patriotism and I don't question Visceral's. You shouldn't either. He has fulfilled the commitment he signed up for (yes I realize the C in C can keep him longer) and he is ready to move on to another phase of his aviation career. A phase that will hopefully be beneficial to Visceral and his family.

3) Pardon Visceral's jadedness, but he has SUFFERED through inept leadership for much of his AF career (yes, a broad generalization). Like he said, we were around when Clinton/McPeak thought it would be a good idea to downsize - kicking a lot of great pilots out of the AF. Now we are hurting badly for experienced aviators in the active duty AF. If the AF had better managed its people, we would not have such a pilot deficit. The AF was also Clinton's personal travel agent while he went on many "essential" trips during his last two years. I remember counting 11 C-17's and 8 C-5's on the ground in Guam during his 5 day trip to Central Asia (there were probably triple that number in the air, on the ground, and refueling). He abused the system and the people who served under him.

4) The AF was going to be about 1500 pilots short of required manning numbers this year. The horrific events of 11 Sep have forced the AF to stop loss pilots without having to be accountable for this shortage that was foreseeable years ago.

You need to listen to what Visceral has to say (although you may not agree with it). You may find yourself looking at this situation thru his eyes in another 3-4 years.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Delta Po Boy;
Good post and good points. Thanks for a reasoned response.
What I don't agree with is Darth Maul's whinning about the incovenience of the war for his personal situation. You know what, many have been inconvenienced... or worse. That's just the way it goes. No one expected this but we're going to take care of business.
Bitchin' and moanin' (and blaming the situation on the President) doesn't accomplish anything and indicates he doesn't understand what's going on. He needs to get back up there and refuel some F-15E's. Others have families too and they are depending on everyone to do their job so that they all get home in one piece.

 

[jurisj]

I'm an AH-64 Aviator and that's the first I've heard of a stop loss for 64 drivers. What is the source of your information????

Whoa... sorry 'bout that. I edited my previous post with the correct information, straight from the Army press release. It's 'hook drivers not Gun drivers that are stop-lossed with us 60 guys.

Again, my apologies for raising your heartrate. Cheers,

- Juris

 

[Phrogs4ever]

It's amazing how much I've heard about how short the Air Force is of pilots, and how the services are using stop-loss to keep pilots on board. But when I contacted every unit at March ARB I got the stiff arm, and heard everything from 150% manning to we hire only rated 135/141 pilots. I have no problem with going right back on active duty after the Corps, I just need to permanantly settle down in California so my wife can get her career back on track. If there was a way I could take someone's place, believe me I would.

Side bar: since the Corp's eggs are in the MV-22 basket, we are overstaffed with CH-46E drivers, and there is no future in that platform. Last year they offered only one Rotor-to-KC-130 transition, and now that community is stop lossed too. ANG or AFRes transition is the best option for me, and they aren't making it easy. I'll keep plugging and serve however I can, preferably something that's a win/win/win situation (me/my wife/our country).

 

[OPIE01]

If you all don't mind, I would like to clarify why STOP LOSS has been implemented.
As per Title 10 of the US Code, "If US Guard or Reserve units are activated, it is mandatory that all Branches of the Service implement STOP LOSS procedures until it is assessed that the requirement for STOP LOSS is no longer required."

So guess what, On Sept 12 there was call up of Guard and Reserve forces to insure the safety of our nations people. So STOP LOSS automatically went into affect.

But let's get at the real reason we are still in STOP LOSS. Back in 1991-1992 there was a big fight between active and Guard/Reserve forces as to how would lose people and equipment in the massive DRAWDOWN. Well, the Guard/Reserve sold our leaders on the fact that they cost less than Active duty forces in Month-to-Month operations. So the decision was made to have USAF Guard/Reserve provide over 50% of our airlift and 100% of our Conus Air Defense.
So on Sept 11 we found ourselves in need of these assets that were a majority in the Guard/Reserve. And wala, the president signed the order to active them and we went to STOP LOSS.

But now, the active forces are using STOP LOSS as a retention tool to fix the mess they are in during this shortage that was created 10 years ago.

Talk about DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY. A friend of mine is flying T-37 Instructor at Columbus, MS. He went over 23 years in the USAF last summer. He had a retirement date of 1 Dec 01 and had a job with FEDEX waiting for him. They will NOT let him out because of STOP LOSS. But the USAF has let out, and continues to waive STOP LOSS for numerous Capts and Majors how have not completed 20 years, because they are going to Guard and Reserve units (also Airline jobs).

So someone please tell me when the exact # of years it takes to become a team player. It looks to me that if you do a 20 year career you lose team player status and are hung out to dry because they know they have you. But it you quit early while you can, before 20 years, you are treated with team player status and you are taken care of.

This is just another example of why USAF pilots are still trying to jump ship. They see guys with 20+ years still taking it in the rear and they take the opportunity to bail out

 

[Visceral]

Delta Po Boy,
I couldn't have said it better. My unit has just completed a weekend exercise, and I've been too busy to reply. Anyhoo, let me address the squid.

"What I don't agree with is Darth Maul's whinning about the incovenience of the war for his personal situation."

Do you know of any war that "conveniences" people. I don't, so I think we are all "inconvenienced at having to waste our nation's valuable resources (aircraft, personnel, etc). They attacked us though, so we are unfortunately going to have to hurt them for as long as it takes. I was offloading gas when the fight started, so don't think I don't like to say I was a part of the day payback fell on Afghanistan. Funny, I don't remember any Navy HC-130s though.

" Bitchin' and moanin' (and blaming the situation on the President) doesn't accomplish anything and indicates he doesn't understand what's going on."

The President did what he had to do because he was put in a hole by his predecessors. Simple as that. Somebodys got to fight the good fight, so the Stop Loss was the answer. If you knew anything about being an aircrew member, you'd know about the "bitchin and moaning" you profess I'm doing when I share my views. The truth is that Stop Loss will eventually end, and I will eventually be able to go do the other things I had planned a little later...hopefully the paths will still be available. I realize other people have families. However, my life's goals which include my family of course, do not include being in the Air Force for 20 years. Can you appreciate the fact that some people who VOLUNTEERED, can at some point get out. I'm sure you plan on being in as long as they let you stay. Good for you. Like Po Delta said, maybe you will be stop lossed. Heres hopin' for that.

"He needs to get back up there and refuel some F-15E's."

What exactly does that mean? You let me know when you've returned from the fight.

 

[Delta Po Boy]

Phrogs4ever,

I know it's frustrating - you hear how short the AF is on pilots, but you can't scare up a Guard job at March. The problem is that the ACTIVE DUTY is short on pilots, not the Guard/Reserves. All the Guard/Reserve units I know have met or exceeded their manning docs, and stop loss (AF Reserve/Guard have stop loss too) keeps guys/gals from getting out - and opening up a slot for you.

To compound your problem, many folks who made a "clean break" from the military found themselves scrounging for a Guard/Reserve job after 11 Sep. One of the guys that went through Delta training with me (prior C-141 guy) ended up getting a job at March a couple of months ago.

For what it's worth - after stop loss is lifted, you shouldn' have a problem getting into one of the units of your choosing. I think there will be a mass exodous from the Reserves/Guard (senior airline guys that don't want to risk losing a nice paycheck by being activated).

Good luck - hopefully an ANG or AFRES job opens up for you.

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Opie-thanks for the info. I, for one, did not know there was a correlation between activating Guard/Reserve units and a stop loss.

Delta Po Boy-I sure hope you're right about the old timers giving up the part time flying when they return. I'm in a comfortable position right now since I have another year left until I EAS, but I'm still apprehensive about the future. A lot can happen between now and then. I'm already hearing that the mini-recession is "officially" over. I just wish someone would tell that to my mutual funds. Hopefully the flying markets will pick up as well this summer and we can all get back on the right track.

 

[OPIE01]

Phrogs4ever,

Maybe you should broaden your search for a Guard or Reserve unit. Go to this sight below and it has all the units that are hiring.

http://www.baseops.net/newjob.html

Many of the C-130 units in the NE are screaming for Pilots.

 

[Spectre]

The writing was on the wall. The Air Force implemented a stop loss even for the Kosovo operations. That was just an operation, not a full blown war. U.S. airlines were in a hiring boom and the economy was robust, thus pilots left the military. Airlines won't be hiring for the next few years and the economy doesn't look so hot now. So guess what, there will be more pilots than cockpits soon. Like the early 90s, only half of my pilot training (UPT) classmates got a cockpit, the rest got a desk job after graduation because there were too many pilots. This "bank" system went on for 3 years. This period of time also saw NAV RIFs. It's an up and down cycle that the military can't seem to match. Therefore, there will always either be too much or not enough staffing.

Right now, the military may be the only secure job for pilots. Another terror attack would devestate this economy.

 

[ArmyC12]

Army Stop-loss

I cannot speak for any other branch, but the Army put Stop-loss #3, thats right, #3 out. It started on 22 Feb. The message came from DA and then through Guard Bue. down to all active duty and National Guard aviation units. Stop-loss #3 is for the 155 pilots. 155E and 155G. This is C-12, RC-12 (military Intel), UC-35, -7 guys and gals. I do not know who was affected by stop loss #1 & #2, but if your in the guard, the human resources people at your state defense building will show you all the messages. Again, stop-loss #3 is for the active army, reserve and the guard. Waivers from guard bureau CAN be granted on a case by case situation. Those will normaly be a "hardship" issue, and going to work for and airline, more than likely, is not a "hardship" issue in their eyes. This affects me as well as everyone else, and yes, I have been hired by SWA.

The most important thing to me is this. I can put food on the table for my family and a roof over their head and give them medical insurance. Being delayed sucks but the family is #1 in my book, as I am sure it is in yours.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Navigators job on the KC-135

"He needs to get back up there and refuel some F-15E's."

What exactly does that mean?

After debriefings conducted with AF Blackbird and Spectre aircraft commanders for many long hours in the O’ Club following successful joint ops, it is my understanding that the Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker’s primary mission is air-to-air fuel transfer. What I meant was stop your embarrassing and girlish bitchin’ and moanin’ and get up there to refuel some F-15E’s; which several AF pilots on this board have informed me is the most awesome and versatile weapon of destruction in the entire U.S. arsenal.

After speaking with these AF a/c commanders, I believe I understand why you so desperately want to leave the service. I have been informed that the Navigator's job on the KC-135 aircraft is to bring the senior pilot coffee and be able to read maps. Once he has conquered those skills, he might be let loose on his own to update the pilot's clock to Daylight Saving's Time in the Fall and Eastern Standard Time in the Spring.

Since this job has been done away with on a modern jet (757/767) with a computer board set that fits into a box the size of a small toaster, I guess flying for Southwest Airlines looks like a big step up.

 

[trueblue]

griffin,
you are a frickin dork. go home bit**

 

[DaveGriffin]

trueblue;
I am sorry if I have offended you. Please remember that everything I know about KC-135 nav's is what I have been told by some very opinionated AF pilots. Maybe you should direct your offense at AF pilot biases and prejudices. Your strong words and negative thoughts are very hurtful.

 

[Draginass]

In the days when KC's had no/or only single INS of dubious accuracy and no radio updating, the Nav was indispensible. He also provided a sanity check for the 2 pilots. Further, since pilots received little or no training on radar scope interpretation on the 1950s radar, the Nav's expertise in wx avoidance was very helpful. During the cold war, flying very remote places without nav aids was a given.

Now, with modern avionics finally being fitted into the old KCs, the presence of a Nav is not firmly necessary.

Hopefully, the USAF will start replacing the 135s with a modern tanker like the 767-400, or 300 with the 400 off-the-shelf (OTS) cockpit setup. The increase in lift capacity and range would be great. If only the USAF could get over it's 2 engine phobia.

 

[Visceral]

DaveGriffin,
If you are going to attack me, at least have the balls to admit you typed your words, not some "Blackbird and Specter aircraft commanders" as you put it. This thread is about stop loss and I asked the question on who else was affected by it. IF you read the thread start, you would probably understand that. If you want to continue your attacks, why don't you go find the kiddie forums. This is a military forum for people interested in topics which affect military members or those looking to join up. I've enjoyed my duties on the tanker, but with Pacer Crag, the modernization has finally caught up with the Air Force, and yes the nav isn't required at all. THAT is the main reason I'm trying to get out of the Air Force and do other things. SEE, IT MAKES SENSE, DON'T IT!

 

[bssthound]

Dave Griffin,
I'm certain your "debriefings" with Blackbird and Spectre aircraft commanders are very informative. Too bad you haven't talked to any KC-135 A/Cs about the nav's job. I'm just about certain you'd get a little more favorable reply from someone familiar with the mission and has possibly had his bacon saved by a good nav when the INS failed over an ocean or hostile territory. Oh, maybe you could ask a receiver who was on fumes and looking at nothing but water below him when the tanker showed up.
Please limit your comments to subject matter that you have some knowledge of. Not some third-hand hearsay at the O Club.


By the way, isn't this thread about stoploss?? I realize some officer and enlisted career fields have been lifted. I know aircrew probably won't be for awhile but it is a start. Dubya really didn't have much of a choice. Give him a few years; this job might just be fun again!

 

[Spectre]

I know this thread is about stop loss, but let's make this clear. There are still airframes in the US Air Force that require NAVs. I flew gunships and was glad to have a Nav onboard. Even with dual INS and GPS on the AC-130H, the Nav had an important role on the gunpig besides navigation. He would communicate with the ground parties to coordinate fire missions, confirmed targets before we fired, and coordinated refueling with tankers. The FCO (fire control officer) who sat next to a NAV was also NAV rated. There will always be a NAV on a gunship. Other aircraft like the C-130E/Hs have NAVs who are instrumental to the airdrop mission. To add, since many pilots left the Air Force recently when the airlines were hiring, the only rated officers left to take Squadron/ Group/Wing Commander positions were NAVs. They're doing an awesome job!

Hang in there, stop loss will go away.

 

[Magic]

Navigators are the guys running the show in the B-52. They have total control of which weapons land where. As most of you have seen in recent news stories, the B-52 is an still an awesome weapon system. The pilots' job is to get airborne, onload fuel from the tanker, handle communications and land the plane at the end of the mission. Other than that, we go where the Nav team tells us. The varying array of weapons that can be carried by the B-52 is incredible. The Nav team has to maintain proficiency in all of them. There are many Navigators in B-52 squadron leadership positions today. This was uncommon in the past. There may not be many aircraft left that need a Nav to get from point A to point B but when the job entails more than that, the entire crew is essential to get the bombs on target. And that, when it is all said and done, is how wars are won.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Stop Loss

Come on, I didn’t make negative remarks about all Navs for all airplanes. You guys seem a little thin skinned here.

I disagreed with Visceral’s ‘I’ve been shafted” comments about stop loss and was responding with an alternative viewpoint that included a personal barb with sarcastic overtones. I don’t know about the AF, but that’s something I’ve become accustomed to gittin’ and givin’ on a regular basis for quite a while. I guess I need to buy you guys a few beers and see if you ever lighten up a little.

Originally posted by bssthound "Please limit your comments to subject matter that you have some knowledge of. Not some third-hand hearsay at the O Club”

Sorry bssthound, but the intell I gathered regarding the KC-135 was essentially correct. Dragginass and Visceral himself confirmed as accurate the fact that recent advances in electronic nagigation equipment have reduced (but not eliminated) the necessity of the Nav for that airframe.

 

[bssthound]

Sorry I took so long to respond but I was out in the sun too long and this thin skin just doesn't take well to sunburn!!

Yeah, the nav job is just about gone from the 135. GPS is not a nav's friend in regard to job security. Of course the box is only as good as what is put into it. The third set of eyes up front can be invaluable when something "just doesn't look right." Been there.

Imagine if the wrong numbers are put into a "magic box" and the crew is too busy with threat and terrain avoidance to realize they're dropping the jumpers in a bad place.

Anyway, stop loss is here and just about all of us have accepted it. I understand Visceral's frustration. I also understand that every day he puts on his uniform he'll give 100%. Like any good aircrew member he'll bitch relentlessly but will give it his absolute dead-level best.

 

[Blue Team]

Flying in the Gaurd or Reserves

With all this talk I am reading about stop loss and shortage on pilots, I am inquiring to you experienced military aviatiors on what you think my chances are of flying heavies in the ANG or AF Reserves in about 2 years. I have 2 more years of school left. Also, what would be the best route to take to become a pilot in a unit. I admire you guys and hope that someday i can be right there along side of you. I do not know much about the military and how it operates. I just have always dreamed of flying in the Air Force. America appreciates what you guys are doing and may God be with you and bring you home to your families.

 

[OPIE01]

Here is a Guard hiring website

Below is a website that has phone #s and guard/reserve units who are hiring for UPT throughout the country.

http://www.baseops.net/newjob.html

I wish these opertunities were there when I was graduating 20 years ago.
And if you join a Unit now they may have the money to pay you back for the college cost you spent already.

Please send me a personal message if you want more information.