New Skywest RJ rates????

[surplus1]

Re: pilot pay???

But as Flyingtito said, "I am domn proud to work for Skywest" even if we make $4 less an hour than CMR to fly a 70 seater.

I think your pride in working for Skywest is justified and I admire you for having it, but I also think your numbers are incorrect.

The actual difference in your book rates varies from CMR as follows:

5 yr. CA -$8.86 12 yr. CA -$11.47 18 yr. CA -$15.84

2 yr FO - $4.92 5 yr. FO - $5.55 8 yr. FO -$7.15

Please note that the difference for a crew ranges from a low of $13.78 to a high of $22.99 per hour in basic book rates alone.

Considering the other differences between our agreements your new agreement is very far from being "$4 an hour less than CMR". You have underbid us by huge amounts. Perhaps you didn't know your were doing that; if so, you should have known.

You should not be surprised to find that you have created a lot of upset people, especially when the legitimacy of your "reasons" is as questionable as it is. You have literally trashed everything that we have tried to do in exchange for which you have gained a "contract with United" that your Company obviously had before you gave away the farm.

Had you taken the prudent approach to concessions that the Delta pilots are taking or anything remotely similar, your actions probably would not have raised so much ire. Like it or not, the fact remains that both you and AWAC appear to have reacted in a less than responsible manner. It is not so much what you did, but how you went about doing it. You are hard pressed to justify such behavior no matter what you say. I'm not going to call you names, but the level of immaturity demonstrated by this action is no less than frightening.

Granted you owe us nothing, but one would have thought that you owe yourselves more. It sort of conflicts with that "pride" you mentioned earlier.

 

[avrodriver]

I am going to try to say this as nicely as possible and I am not trying to start a fight here as everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Comair pilots you should be proud....you have a very good company over there and you fought very hard for what you have now ( I actually think you should have gotten more, but at least it was forward progress). But please do not think now you can look down on every other pilot group that is being faced with the new staus quo at the regional level (Delta by the way is not at the regional level and is not facing the same issues although I love that they aren't letting them get away with this furlough nonsense, as well as pay cuts). Whiskey, Skywest, ACA, Mesaba, CHQ, PDT, ALG, Mesaba, Mesa.....you name it...they are all dealing with something that you aren't, concession demands because of other carriers. Whiskey pilots fought pretty dam.n hard to get what we have now ( our TA is not in effect yet and will not be until United awards us flying), just like you did......the only difference is our mgmt wanted sh.it back and for some reason people over here felt like giving it to them. I don't believe your mgmt has yet and I really hope it stays that way ( I know, I know......if they do you will tell them to f.uck off..yeah how many times have we heard that before and look what still happens). Be happy with your own company, be happy you aren't going backwards, what's done is done......scolding people and telling them they did wrong doesn't change a da.mn thing. Nobody is trying to get you. Unfortunately everyone is out for self ( a little bad habit we've picked up from our managements) Good luck to all.....espeacially those facing concessions as well as those just trying to get a freak'in new contract (XJ, CoEx, ASA, Skyway). AD

 

[nimtz]

I shouldn't be posting, It's too fricking late.... But

Where do you people think we are???
We are regional pilots. The regionals have always sucked in the pay department and always will. Now that the industry has tanked we all start thinking about actually staying at our little regional for the long haul. Guess what? That's pretty lame. Every one of our companies will be whipsawed into oblivion. I dig flying for SKYW, it's a great company to work for right now, but I'm not planning on staying here 'till I'm 60. I was hired on with no pension and I know I will not have one until I get hired on with a company that does. If you want money, chill out until the industry turns up and then go to the majors. If you think you are too old, that's crap. After 3 years at a major, I'll not only be making more than I would if I stayed, but I will have made up my losses from my first year pay.

Send in the Yankee Clipper with Mr. Coffee cause this fella needs to wake the f*ck up! Them mainline jobs are wiliting away while you/I are gladding piling up our 121 Jet time, which you still think is all its gonna take to get to the next level. Hey look at your schedule some time genius, you are already doing mainline flying, so why should you accept pay in the toliet? The days of 3000 PIC and a guaranteed interview are over. You/I are nothing more then smarter B-scale so we gotta get going on making these jobs right. After all you are going to end up falling pretty hard leaping for the gold ring of a mainline job, which ain't there. Signing off on 70 seat pay rates for 50 seat pay is exactly the type of disgusting behavior we as professionals need to stop NOW!

 

[avrodriver]

Well said.....I agree 100%. Skywest isn't the only carrier that sold out though. Here at Air Whiskey my "brothers" decided it would be fair for Captains to get paid more for the 70 seater, but F/O's should get the same measley 50 seat rate no matter which CRJ they are on (BAC-JET F/o's still make more)............fricken bullsh*t. Everyones so anxious to get their piece of the pie they don't care about the trail of sh.it they are leaving not only for the pilots that will come on line after us, but for other airlines that are struggling to be paid what they are worth after years of getting screwed. You wanna make a decent living???? Stop dreaming of what's next because it isn't there anymore boys. After the 8 years or so you spend at your respective carrier are you really going to fricken be able to jump ship to be the last guy on the list at a major when they do start hiring??? 8 or 10 years from now your gonna have kids, a house, a wife....all kinds of shi.t that demands stability, and if we don't piss it all away by then you should have a pretty decent salary and some good beni's as well. It's nice to dream, but your going to be dreaming for awhile. Life is to short to say.......it'll be better later, I just gotta stick it out for now. Cause while your dreaming Mgmts gonna break in your house, steal all your sh.t , and leave you with nothing but that dream. Live in the now. AD

 

[SSDD]

Avro,

You're exactly right. Except you can't tell these guys any different. My friends at Skywest preached the very same things you're saying, but you should have heard the stupid things that were getting thrown back at them. And the thing is that most of the crap was being spewn by the inhouse "union" reps who should have been standing up for the pilots. A lot of these junior guys just see themselves driving 70 seaters out of ORD.

 

[surplus1]

But please do not think now you can look down on every other pilot group that is being faced with the new staus quo at the regional level (Delta by the way is not at the regional level and is not facing the same issues although I love that they aren't letting them get away with this furlough nonsense, as well as pay cuts). Whiskey, Skywest, ACA, Mesaba, CHQ, PDT, ALG, Mesaba, Mesa.....you name it...they are all dealing with something that you aren't, concession demands because of other carriers.

My friend I'm not looking down at all and can't even imagine how you came to that conclusion. What I am doing is running scared because I know what's coming as a result of what AWAC and SKYW have done and what I think ACA will also do.

If you believe that we will not be dealing with "concession demands" as a result of this, I think you're very wrong. The demand is coming and coming soon.

The fact is we have been undercut by a very wide margin and there will be consequences. When those consequences materialize it is highly probable that we will be forced to follow you into the downward spiral. You seem to think we are somehow exempt from all this. The fact is we are not.

PDT and ALG both had good contracts. They were in bankruptcy along with the rest of USAirGroup. That is a circumstance beyond their control and I don't hold them responsible for the wage concessions they had to make. As for Mesa, they have always been way below everyone and, in my opinion, the fact that they remain there is as irrlevalnt now as it was before.

SKYW, AWAC and ACA are not in bankruptcy or anywhere close to it. I simply do not believe that any of those carriers had to make concessions "to keep the UAL contracts". I see that as a management scam that they unfortunately swallowed to their own detriment and that of everyyone else. All three of those airlines are very profitable and, again in my opinion, did not need any concessions from pilots to remain so. Why then were these concessions made? Fear and fear alone. You've been duped and suckered in.

The result is that everyone else, including Comair which is not exempt, will suffer. Mesaba, Chautauqua, ASA, COEX and Skyway netotiations have all been trashed as a result of these unnecessary concessions at AWAC, SKYW and ACA. Whatever power we had to resist unnecessary concessions has been thrown away by folks that are supposed to be our friends and the union that is supposed to protect our interests. It's absolutely incredible.

I don't have a holier than thou attitude my friend, I just think that three of the best regional contracts/agreements have literally been given away with no justifiable reason. That will result in the two survinving agreements (CMR and HZN) having their compensation trashed as well. It's inevitable now.

For this absurd response to "industry problems" that NONE of your three airlines have, the remainder of the regional pilot groups will all suffer. Face it, the only "industry problem" that the regionals have is rapid growth. The real problems are at the majors, not the regionals. Trashing regional contracts isn't going to change mainline problems and it is not going to get you contracts that you would get anyway. Just look at Skywest. Do you really believe they got a deal with UAL within six hours of making concessions, because of the concessions?

Whiskey pilots fought pretty dam.n hard to get what we have now ( our TA is not in effect yet and will not be until United awards us flying), just like you did......the only difference is our mgmt wanted sh.it back and for some reason people over here felt like giving it to them.

I agree that you fought hard for what you had. So did we. That's why I don't understand how you could give it away so easily or for so long (and the so-called 18 month deal at Skywest is a dream that only they have). It just makes no sense to me. Whatever you are going to "get from United" you would have gotten with or without the concessions. Just like Skywest did. SKYW got the UAL MOU, without the concessions, not because of them. It will take a lot longer than 18 months to get back to where we were.

I don't believe your mgmt has yet and I really hope it stays that way ( I know, I know......if they do you will tell them to f.uck off..yeah how many times have we heard that before and look what still happens).

No, they haven't asked yet, but there is no doubt that they will and this time we will not be able to tell them to blow it. Why? Because of what you all have done. Not because our company needs it and not because your companies needed it, but because you all chose to give away what you had, ironically in exchange for nothing.

Be happy with your own company, be happy you aren't going backwards, what's done is done......scolding people and telling them they did wrong doesn't change a da.mn thing. Nobody is trying to get you. Unfortunately everyone is out for self ( a little bad habit we've picked up from our managements) Good luck to all.....espeacially those facing concessions as well as those just trying to get a freak'in new contract (XJ, CoEx, ASA, Skyway). AD

I was happy with my own company, but I will have to go backwards now .... by a very long way, thanks to the three of you. That I'm not happy with. I know that scolding you will change nothing. If I could be convinced that everyone was just "out for self" I would not like it, but at least I would understand it. This is not out for self, it is screwing yourself .... and as a result, everyone else, those that have a good contract and those that were trying to get one. I'm sorry, but that sucks.

I'm not looking down on you, I'm just telling you that I think you have hurt yourselves and I know you have hurt everyone else. Saying it won't make it better, but I have to vent too.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Reality check

Everyone is complaining about the symptoms while the cause of the disease gets ignored.
According to publicly released information SkyWest receives about 20% less revenue per departure than it did before. UAL brought in the Bain group to pressure all the UAX carriers. The bankruptcy court has a say in how UAX flying gets distributed. You can leave your head in the sand if you'd like but the real reasons for the SkyWest TA and pay cuts at AirWhisky and ACA (pending) lies at the feet of our mainline partners. I hear Comair guys complaining loudly about our TA but I wonder if any of them tried to put pressure on their parent company, DAL, to leave our fee per departure agreements untouched. Comair and ASA are owned by DAL. Since the profits from their flying remain inside the Delta "family" they are in a better position relative to DAL. They also don't do any UAX flying and are immune from the pressures of the Bain group and the bankruptcy court.
Whether the SkyWest TA is the end of the world or an acceptable short term compromise remains unknown. We won't know for 18 months whether or not we'll be able to separate the payscales into 50-70 seats and 71-99 seats.
The bottom line is that UAL and DAL cut our revenue stream significantly. We will not have pay cuts and will continue to receive our longevity increases. There is no sign of anything larger than a 70 seater being on the property during the duration of the TA. By the end of the TA period less than 10% of our RJ fleet will be 70 seaters. The EMB fleet will have about 80 airframes and EMB pilots will continue to be paid rates at or near the top of the industry.
I was not a cheerleader for this TA during the period leading up to the vote. The fact is we won't know whether or not it was the right thing to do until 2005 and neither will you. It was definitely a gamble. If we don't get anything larger than 70 seats it will be viewed by many as an acceptable compromise. If we do get a larger airframe within 18 months then we may regret it.

 

[rightrudder]

Surplus wrote:

I agree that you fought hard for what you had. So did we. That's why I don't understand how you could give it away so easily or for so long (and the so-called 18 month deal at Skywest is a dream that only they have). It just makes no sense to me. Whatever you are going to "get from United" you would have gotten with or without the concessions.

I think you fail to understand how the bidding process that the UEX carriers are subject to works. We are not going to get United flying by submitting the same pilot labor costs as we have right now. The bids must contain line by line, all costs, e.g., pilot labor, FA labor, maintenence, etc. line by line. Then UAL adds a small, fixed profit margin on top of these costs, and thats what you are paid.

UAL is in bankruptcy and they are not going to pay more money than they have to for express service. This presents a problem when we have to bid against Mesa or Chautauqua, who have much lower costs that the current 3 UEX carriers.

United is holding a gun to our heads - you make the wrong move and Buh-Bye.

Your company is not in the same situation as we are.

All three of those airlines are very profitable and, again in my opinion, did not need any concessions from pilots to remain so.

These companies are profitable now , under the current UAL contracts. But United is NOT going to continue to pay these carriers in this manner. Our current labor agreements (and wages) are based upon the current UAL agreements. Unfortunatley, for Air Wiskey and ACA, the vast majority of our flying is for UAL, and we are really up against the wall. I'm not happy in the least that we have been put in a situation. I'm not happy that concessions are necessary to continue to stay in business and have a job. This is the ugly reality.

 

[inthepool]

I wonder sometimes how the human race advanced itself considering the overwhelming amount of selfishness out there. All you hear these days is, "Your pilots sold ours out!" Right, because it's one pilot group's duty to look out for another pilot group's well being. You guys pi$$ and moan about pay cuts and concessions, well I'll make you a deal. I'll take your apparently crappy job, and you can have my tons o fun CFI gig (mayo sandwich for lunch AGAIN today) How quickly we forget our roots... Be happy for what you have, because there's vast numbers out there who only wish we had it.

 

[avrodriver]

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time replying but, no one is forgetting our roots here.....are we dissing you somehow??? Are we selling you out in anyway??? Are we talking smack about CFI's??? Wake up.......we know you work hard.......wouldn't you like to get to the next level and say.....ahh man this was worth it, instead of I went through all this for this shi.t?? Oh yeah.....get used to the sandwiches, next time you walk through the regional teminal take a look and see how many pilots bring coolers to work, I know I do.....this is the sh.it I'm talking about. You wanna tell me to stop bi.tching cause at least I have a job, well I'll tell you the same thing. Be greatful you've gotten this far in your career, and be greatful you still have a job where someone else is paying for your hours, others are looking to fill your shoes just like your looking to fill mine. Good luck and hang in there......I know how badly I wanted my first, and now second regional job. This is what I was talking about in the above post and now I see it's spreading to people that aren't even in the industry yet. Gimmie my job now, gimmie my upgrade now........I don't care the cost......it'll get better later. Bullsh.it! AD

 

[PBRstreetgang]

DB, etal,
That is the same tripe that the company was pushing prior to the "TA" vote. Their "Doom and Gloom" sales push worked 53% of the pilots believed and voted accordingly. I wish pilots would stop "understanding" managments plight, and their inability to make only $13, 000,000 in 1stQ03. The 53% rolled belly up and caved, UAL, SKYW both won. It never stops to amaze me that pilots seem to "understand" managments plight and give them whatever they want.
Wake up and do your own research, the SKYW-UAL deal announcment should cause at least one eyebrow to raise.
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

INTHEPOOL,
It's only getting worse, day by day, your plight will just continue when you get to SKYW or where ever you are in the pool for.
Reality, when I went through ground school at SKYW , I was paid from day 1.
When you go through you will be unpaid till your A/C checkride, could be 2 months or more. Hope your credit card is well below it's limits. If managment gets it's way, the no pay would be extended till the off probation interview, 1 year+.
The above probation thing is just speculation, I hope it will go the other way. The reason SKYW paid me during training was: no-one was showing up and they had trouble filling classes. Demand will determine price, if you are willing to work for nothing managment will pay nothing until the classes are empty. Extrapolate this to the 777, if you will fly it for free, why would they pay you to fly it?
You either have moral standards or you don't, one doesn't suddenly develop standards at some arbitrary point, ie, a job, CFI, freight, regional, major, flag carrier, where do you grow a pair?
Good luck
PBR

 

[Rogue5]

If managment gets it's way, the no pay would be extended till the off probation interview, 1 year+.

PBR, I'd advise you not to even joke around putting words like that in management's mouths... Its not true, its not even very funny, and even though you qualified it as "speculation" afterword, people have a tendancy on this board to run with lines like that as truth.

This is a great company and just as I don't believe in little green men or Santa Claus, I have a hard time believing in doom and gloom conspiracy theories about alleged neo-slave drivers in SGU trying to squeeze every penny out of us.

There is a lot of goodwill between management and pilots, and although management always has one eye towards the bottom line (that IS their job, as ours is to fly airplanes), the people at SKYW have impressed me by their understanding of when saving a few extra bucks actual does more damage to the intangibles that make a company work well.

Just my $.02 as I fly around looking at clouds...

 

[Rogue5]

By the way, the above being said, it should be noted: I voted NO.

 

[nimtz]

INTHEPOOL,
You either have moral standards or you don't, one doesn't suddenly develop standards at some arbitrary point, ie, a job, CFI, freight, regional, major, flag carrier, where do you grow a pair?
Good luck
PBR

PBR, you by far are the wisest Skywest pilot I have come across yet. All these morons that talk about 'it's a great company and mangement treats us right' need to try a little absolut in their koolaid...