New Skywest RJ rates????

[General Lee]

Flyboyphil,

I'm sorry too, sometimes I take this board way too seriously. I think we will give up some cash, but overall we will still hold the bar up high for the rest of the industry--which is good for you and me. The only people who seem to get rich these days are the people in management. Take it easy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

Slow down easy...

Taking this message board seriously: DEFINATELY a sign of sickness...

Primarily caused by:

A) Long layovers with internet access
B) Too many months on reserve
C) Furlough

Remedy:

Corona with lime poolside with baseball game on the radio.

 

[Theflyingtito]

By Sleepy
That does not sit well with me, probably the way you will feel when Mesa undercuts you for the United flying

Hey, did you notice smart guy that we signed a contract with United for the next 11 years and now own over 50% of the United Express flying.
Take your childish namecalling and take a hike. I think the old saying of "keep your mouth shut so no one knows you're a fool instead of opening it and removing all doubt" definitely applies here.
There were seven airlines bidding on the united flying. The fact that we got the contract when our 50 seat pay rates are still amoung the highest in the industry makes me dang proud to work here. Our seventy seat rates are actually higher than some companies also. We get to fly both, gain more flying, and have a profitable company to work for. We don't have the luxury/horror(take your pick) of being wholy owned. This means we have a lot more expenses than those who are. We have to pay a lot more lease and depreciation costs that others do not. And we still have some of the highest pay. We are not being asked for concessions.
To me, in these times, there is no name calling that can change the way I feel about where I work.
By the way, I did vote no to the TA, but life goes on. Let's just hope we get it right in 18 months.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Sleepy,
If you are really a pilot, here is somethings you might understand.
You might even be smart to figure this out:

"Your pilot group wants them, and is willing to offer to operate them for way less than we do"

How do you figure that? 53% voted to fly 50-99 seats a/c for 2 year old rates, I am gonna go out on a limb here, the CR7 has 70 seats right, 50-99 same price per the new agreement.

"I can only conclude that you are trying to take them from us by being a "low-ball" bidder"

OK, still out on the limb here, I bid on flying lines, to fly as a pilot. If SKYW bids on flying that is their job as a company.
I nor do the pilots have any say on what SKYW bids for, nor how much they bid.

"That does not sit well with me, probably the way you will feel when Mesa undercuts you for the United flying".

I am sorry that the above do not sit well with you, perhaps you should reach around, and into your Pull-Up Pampers and remove some of the stuff that will not allow you to sit well.
I can only conclude that you are a very young and foolish young person or an older version of the previous description.
I seem from your posts that this may be the only communications you can understand, you POO-POO head.
PBR

P.S. What Mesa does or does not do, will not cause me to lose sleep, you might even understand this: business's compete with each other that is capitalism, if you keep makin' me take you to school I'm gonna you charge tuition.







__________________

 

[FNB]

pilot pay???

What I find funny in this whole discussion it the fact that pilot pay is the only thing that the majors look at.

Skywest has been graded with our on time performance since Jan. We have been the #1 airline in the country 3 times. Do you think that UAL ignores that. Quality does still matter.

Our contract is not getting us more business, our attitude, our customer service, and the way we treat our customers is getting us more business. If you want to blame the pilot contract, which is still higher than most, go ahead.

But as Flyingtito said, "I am domn proud to work for Skywest" even if we make $4 less an hour than CMR to fly a 70 seater.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I think it's ridiculous that we're trying to justify our TA to people that PFT'd or work for carriers that until recently were PFT. My memory of the 90's is still pretty clear.

I have never heard anyone say nor seen a post on our internal forums that stated anything to the effect of "vote for the TA so we could take XYZ's 70 seaters."

Although the TA has drawbacks we are still near or at the top for compensation among UAX carriers for 50&70 seats. I'm not saying it's a great TA but we're not going to know the real outcome for another couple of years. How many UAX pilots are guaranteed to avoid paycuts in equipment they currently operate? How many UAX pilots will maintain their pre 9/11 work rules for the most part?

 

[Bako Cap]

I shouldn't be posting, It's too fricking late.... But

Where do you people think we are???
We are regional pilots. The regionals have always sucked in the pay department and always will. Now that the industry has tanked we all start thinking about actually staying at our little regional for the long haul. Guess what? That's pretty lame. Every one of our companies will be whipsawed into oblivion. I dig flying for SKYW, it's a great company to work for right now, but I'm not planning on staying here 'till I'm 60. I was hired on with no pension and I know I will not have one until I get hired on with a company that does. If you want money, chill out until the industry turns up and then go to the majors. If you think you are too old, that's crap. After 3 years at a major, I'll not only be making more than I would if I stayed, but I will have made up my losses from my first year pay.

If you folks STILL want to blame someone, how about you blame Delta ALPA and United APLA for our crappy pay. They opened up the "RJ pandoras box" ie. "limited scope" by alowing their company to let the regionals fly any jets at all. It's their fault for not having the RJs flying on their property with their pilots. I can see how the union negotiations went...

Management - "Hi guys, we want to give our cheap regional partners small jets."

UALPA - "Hell no, only we fly jets!"

Management - "How about we give you guys a pay raise."

UALPA - "OK, but just 65 small jets and only up to 50 seats."

Management - "Sure, that's it. We promise it will only be 65 and no bigger than 50 seats. Trust us....."

Talk about caving to management................

I've already lost my job once due to Mesa and United (remember Westair) and I'm not losing it again. I heard the same crap working there that I've heard from all the "NO" voters here. "United likes our product" and the one I love, "No one can replace us quick enough, let alone have the airplanes and resources." BullS#$T

I don't trust United management, never will. They would sell us out in a heartbeat and still might. Remember, SKYW only has a MOU with United not a contract. Let alone we all know how United honors their contracts. In case you're slow, THEY DON'T. I bet they went to Mesa and said, "Pssst.. This is what we got from SKYW, any chance you can under bid it?"

I'd better stop typing before I turn off on another tangent and I'm starting to go crosseyed.

 

[sleepy]

Sleepy,
If you are really a pilot, here is somethings you might understand.
You might even be smart to figure this out:

"Your pilot group wants them, and is willing to offer to operate them for way less than we do"

How do you figure that? 53% voted to fly 50-99 seats a/c for 2 year old rates, I am gonna go out on a limb here, the CR7 has 70 seats right, 50-99 same price per the new agreement.

"I can only conclude that you are trying to take them from us by being a "low-ball" bidder"

OK, still out on the limb here, I bid on flying lines, to fly as a pilot. If SKYW bids on flying that is their job as a company.
I nor do the pilots have any say on what SKYW bids for, nor how much they bid.

"That does not sit well with me, probably the way you will feel when Mesa undercuts you for the United flying".

I am sorry that the above do not sit well with you, perhaps you should reach around, and into your Pull-Up Pampers and remove some of the stuff that will not allow you to sit well.
I can only conclude that you are a very young and foolish young person or an older version of the previous description.
I seem from your posts that this may be the only communications you can understand, you POO-POO head.
PBR

P.S. What Mesa does or does not do, will not cause me to lose sleep, you might even understand this: business's compete with each other that is capitalism, if you keep makin' me take you to school I'm gonna you charge tuition.

Wow, a lot of name calling there, especially for a Mormon boy. I still think you are scum. Most of our pilots think the same thing. This is pointless, I'm out.







__________________

 

[bladeusa]

But as Flyingtito said, "I am domn proud to work for Skywest" even if we make $4 less an hour than CMR to fly a 70 seater.

really.. ive been here under 4 years and am making 69.91 plus 1.65 per diem... didnt realize u were getting as much as u claim...

 

[Theflyingtito]

BladeUSA,
I'm not going to debate that there is better pay out there. For where I work and the quality of environment that I work in, the places I fly and the people I get to fly with... you get the idea, I still wouldn't want to work anywhere else. It doesn't have to be some big competition. As a total package, I was just saying I'm glad to work here.

 

[surplus1]

Re: pilot pay???

But as Flyingtito said, "I am domn proud to work for Skywest" even if we make $4 less an hour than CMR to fly a 70 seater.

I think your pride in working for Skywest is justified and I admire you for having it, but I also think your numbers are incorrect.

The actual difference in your book rates varies from CMR as follows:

5 yr. CA -$8.86 12 yr. CA -$11.47 18 yr. CA -$15.84

2 yr FO - $4.92 5 yr. FO - $5.55 8 yr. FO -$7.15

Please note that the difference for a crew ranges from a low of $13.78 to a high of $22.99 per hour in basic book rates alone.

Considering the other differences between our agreements your new agreement is very far from being "$4 an hour less than CMR". You have underbid us by huge amounts. Perhaps you didn't know your were doing that; if so, you should have known.

You should not be surprised to find that you have created a lot of upset people, especially when the legitimacy of your "reasons" is as questionable as it is. You have literally trashed everything that we have tried to do in exchange for which you have gained a "contract with United" that your Company obviously had before you gave away the farm.

Had you taken the prudent approach to concessions that the Delta pilots are taking or anything remotely similar, your actions probably would not have raised so much ire. Like it or not, the fact remains that both you and AWAC appear to have reacted in a less than responsible manner. It is not so much what you did, but how you went about doing it. You are hard pressed to justify such behavior no matter what you say. I'm not going to call you names, but the level of immaturity demonstrated by this action is no less than frightening.

Granted you owe us nothing, but one would have thought that you owe yourselves more. It sort of conflicts with that "pride" you mentioned earlier.

 

[avrodriver]

I am going to try to say this as nicely as possible and I am not trying to start a fight here as everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Comair pilots you should be proud....you have a very good company over there and you fought very hard for what you have now ( I actually think you should have gotten more, but at least it was forward progress). But please do not think now you can look down on every other pilot group that is being faced with the new staus quo at the regional level (Delta by the way is not at the regional level and is not facing the same issues although I love that they aren't letting them get away with this furlough nonsense, as well as pay cuts). Whiskey, Skywest, ACA, Mesaba, CHQ, PDT, ALG, Mesaba, Mesa.....you name it...they are all dealing with something that you aren't, concession demands because of other carriers. Whiskey pilots fought pretty dam.n hard to get what we have now ( our TA is not in effect yet and will not be until United awards us flying), just like you did......the only difference is our mgmt wanted sh.it back and for some reason people over here felt like giving it to them. I don't believe your mgmt has yet and I really hope it stays that way ( I know, I know......if they do you will tell them to f.uck off..yeah how many times have we heard that before and look what still happens). Be happy with your own company, be happy you aren't going backwards, what's done is done......scolding people and telling them they did wrong doesn't change a da.mn thing. Nobody is trying to get you. Unfortunately everyone is out for self ( a little bad habit we've picked up from our managements) Good luck to all.....espeacially those facing concessions as well as those just trying to get a freak'in new contract (XJ, CoEx, ASA, Skyway). AD

 

[nimtz]

I shouldn't be posting, It's too fricking late.... But

Where do you people think we are???
We are regional pilots. The regionals have always sucked in the pay department and always will. Now that the industry has tanked we all start thinking about actually staying at our little regional for the long haul. Guess what? That's pretty lame. Every one of our companies will be whipsawed into oblivion. I dig flying for SKYW, it's a great company to work for right now, but I'm not planning on staying here 'till I'm 60. I was hired on with no pension and I know I will not have one until I get hired on with a company that does. If you want money, chill out until the industry turns up and then go to the majors. If you think you are too old, that's crap. After 3 years at a major, I'll not only be making more than I would if I stayed, but I will have made up my losses from my first year pay.

Send in the Yankee Clipper with Mr. Coffee cause this fella needs to wake the f*ck up! Them mainline jobs are wiliting away while you/I are gladding piling up our 121 Jet time, which you still think is all its gonna take to get to the next level. Hey look at your schedule some time genius, you are already doing mainline flying, so why should you accept pay in the toliet? The days of 3000 PIC and a guaranteed interview are over. You/I are nothing more then smarter B-scale so we gotta get going on making these jobs right. After all you are going to end up falling pretty hard leaping for the gold ring of a mainline job, which ain't there. Signing off on 70 seat pay rates for 50 seat pay is exactly the type of disgusting behavior we as professionals need to stop NOW!

 

[avrodriver]

Well said.....I agree 100%. Skywest isn't the only carrier that sold out though. Here at Air Whiskey my "brothers" decided it would be fair for Captains to get paid more for the 70 seater, but F/O's should get the same measley 50 seat rate no matter which CRJ they are on (BAC-JET F/o's still make more)............fricken bullsh*t. Everyones so anxious to get their piece of the pie they don't care about the trail of sh.it they are leaving not only for the pilots that will come on line after us, but for other airlines that are struggling to be paid what they are worth after years of getting screwed. You wanna make a decent living???? Stop dreaming of what's next because it isn't there anymore boys. After the 8 years or so you spend at your respective carrier are you really going to fricken be able to jump ship to be the last guy on the list at a major when they do start hiring??? 8 or 10 years from now your gonna have kids, a house, a wife....all kinds of shi.t that demands stability, and if we don't piss it all away by then you should have a pretty decent salary and some good beni's as well. It's nice to dream, but your going to be dreaming for awhile. Life is to short to say.......it'll be better later, I just gotta stick it out for now. Cause while your dreaming Mgmts gonna break in your house, steal all your sh.t , and leave you with nothing but that dream. Live in the now. AD

 

[SSDD]

Avro,

You're exactly right. Except you can't tell these guys any different. My friends at Skywest preached the very same things you're saying, but you should have heard the stupid things that were getting thrown back at them. And the thing is that most of the crap was being spewn by the inhouse "union" reps who should have been standing up for the pilots. A lot of these junior guys just see themselves driving 70 seaters out of ORD.

 

[surplus1]

But please do not think now you can look down on every other pilot group that is being faced with the new staus quo at the regional level (Delta by the way is not at the regional level and is not facing the same issues although I love that they aren't letting them get away with this furlough nonsense, as well as pay cuts). Whiskey, Skywest, ACA, Mesaba, CHQ, PDT, ALG, Mesaba, Mesa.....you name it...they are all dealing with something that you aren't, concession demands because of other carriers.

My friend I'm not looking down at all and can't even imagine how you came to that conclusion. What I am doing is running scared because I know what's coming as a result of what AWAC and SKYW have done and what I think ACA will also do.

If you believe that we will not be dealing with "concession demands" as a result of this, I think you're very wrong. The demand is coming and coming soon.

The fact is we have been undercut by a very wide margin and there will be consequences. When those consequences materialize it is highly probable that we will be forced to follow you into the downward spiral. You seem to think we are somehow exempt from all this. The fact is we are not.

PDT and ALG both had good contracts. They were in bankruptcy along with the rest of USAirGroup. That is a circumstance beyond their control and I don't hold them responsible for the wage concessions they had to make. As for Mesa, they have always been way below everyone and, in my opinion, the fact that they remain there is as irrlevalnt now as it was before.

SKYW, AWAC and ACA are not in bankruptcy or anywhere close to it. I simply do not believe that any of those carriers had to make concessions "to keep the UAL contracts". I see that as a management scam that they unfortunately swallowed to their own detriment and that of everyyone else. All three of those airlines are very profitable and, again in my opinion, did not need any concessions from pilots to remain so. Why then were these concessions made? Fear and fear alone. You've been duped and suckered in.

The result is that everyone else, including Comair which is not exempt, will suffer. Mesaba, Chautauqua, ASA, COEX and Skyway netotiations have all been trashed as a result of these unnecessary concessions at AWAC, SKYW and ACA. Whatever power we had to resist unnecessary concessions has been thrown away by folks that are supposed to be our friends and the union that is supposed to protect our interests. It's absolutely incredible.

I don't have a holier than thou attitude my friend, I just think that three of the best regional contracts/agreements have literally been given away with no justifiable reason. That will result in the two survinving agreements (CMR and HZN) having their compensation trashed as well. It's inevitable now.

For this absurd response to "industry problems" that NONE of your three airlines have, the remainder of the regional pilot groups will all suffer. Face it, the only "industry problem" that the regionals have is rapid growth. The real problems are at the majors, not the regionals. Trashing regional contracts isn't going to change mainline problems and it is not going to get you contracts that you would get anyway. Just look at Skywest. Do you really believe they got a deal with UAL within six hours of making concessions, because of the concessions?

Whiskey pilots fought pretty dam.n hard to get what we have now ( our TA is not in effect yet and will not be until United awards us flying), just like you did......the only difference is our mgmt wanted sh.it back and for some reason people over here felt like giving it to them.

I agree that you fought hard for what you had. So did we. That's why I don't understand how you could give it away so easily or for so long (and the so-called 18 month deal at Skywest is a dream that only they have). It just makes no sense to me. Whatever you are going to "get from United" you would have gotten with or without the concessions. Just like Skywest did. SKYW got the UAL MOU, without the concessions, not because of them. It will take a lot longer than 18 months to get back to where we were.

I don't believe your mgmt has yet and I really hope it stays that way ( I know, I know......if they do you will tell them to f.uck off..yeah how many times have we heard that before and look what still happens).

No, they haven't asked yet, but there is no doubt that they will and this time we will not be able to tell them to blow it. Why? Because of what you all have done. Not because our company needs it and not because your companies needed it, but because you all chose to give away what you had, ironically in exchange for nothing.

Be happy with your own company, be happy you aren't going backwards, what's done is done......scolding people and telling them they did wrong doesn't change a da.mn thing. Nobody is trying to get you. Unfortunately everyone is out for self ( a little bad habit we've picked up from our managements) Good luck to all.....espeacially those facing concessions as well as those just trying to get a freak'in new contract (XJ, CoEx, ASA, Skyway). AD

I was happy with my own company, but I will have to go backwards now .... by a very long way, thanks to the three of you. That I'm not happy with. I know that scolding you will change nothing. If I could be convinced that everyone was just "out for self" I would not like it, but at least I would understand it. This is not out for self, it is screwing yourself .... and as a result, everyone else, those that have a good contract and those that were trying to get one. I'm sorry, but that sucks.

I'm not looking down on you, I'm just telling you that I think you have hurt yourselves and I know you have hurt everyone else. Saying it won't make it better, but I have to vent too.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Reality check

Everyone is complaining about the symptoms while the cause of the disease gets ignored.
According to publicly released information SkyWest receives about 20% less revenue per departure than it did before. UAL brought in the Bain group to pressure all the UAX carriers. The bankruptcy court has a say in how UAX flying gets distributed. You can leave your head in the sand if you'd like but the real reasons for the SkyWest TA and pay cuts at AirWhisky and ACA (pending) lies at the feet of our mainline partners. I hear Comair guys complaining loudly about our TA but I wonder if any of them tried to put pressure on their parent company, DAL, to leave our fee per departure agreements untouched. Comair and ASA are owned by DAL. Since the profits from their flying remain inside the Delta "family" they are in a better position relative to DAL. They also don't do any UAX flying and are immune from the pressures of the Bain group and the bankruptcy court.
Whether the SkyWest TA is the end of the world or an acceptable short term compromise remains unknown. We won't know for 18 months whether or not we'll be able to separate the payscales into 50-70 seats and 71-99 seats.
The bottom line is that UAL and DAL cut our revenue stream significantly. We will not have pay cuts and will continue to receive our longevity increases. There is no sign of anything larger than a 70 seater being on the property during the duration of the TA. By the end of the TA period less than 10% of our RJ fleet will be 70 seaters. The EMB fleet will have about 80 airframes and EMB pilots will continue to be paid rates at or near the top of the industry.
I was not a cheerleader for this TA during the period leading up to the vote. The fact is we won't know whether or not it was the right thing to do until 2005 and neither will you. It was definitely a gamble. If we don't get anything larger than 70 seats it will be viewed by many as an acceptable compromise. If we do get a larger airframe within 18 months then we may regret it.

 

[rightrudder]

Surplus wrote:

I agree that you fought hard for what you had. So did we. That's why I don't understand how you could give it away so easily or for so long (and the so-called 18 month deal at Skywest is a dream that only they have). It just makes no sense to me. Whatever you are going to "get from United" you would have gotten with or without the concessions.

I think you fail to understand how the bidding process that the UEX carriers are subject to works. We are not going to get United flying by submitting the same pilot labor costs as we have right now. The bids must contain line by line, all costs, e.g., pilot labor, FA labor, maintenence, etc. line by line. Then UAL adds a small, fixed profit margin on top of these costs, and thats what you are paid.

UAL is in bankruptcy and they are not going to pay more money than they have to for express service. This presents a problem when we have to bid against Mesa or Chautauqua, who have much lower costs that the current 3 UEX carriers.

United is holding a gun to our heads - you make the wrong move and Buh-Bye.

Your company is not in the same situation as we are.

All three of those airlines are very profitable and, again in my opinion, did not need any concessions from pilots to remain so.

These companies are profitable now , under the current UAL contracts. But United is NOT going to continue to pay these carriers in this manner. Our current labor agreements (and wages) are based upon the current UAL agreements. Unfortunatley, for Air Wiskey and ACA, the vast majority of our flying is for UAL, and we are really up against the wall. I'm not happy in the least that we have been put in a situation. I'm not happy that concessions are necessary to continue to stay in business and have a job. This is the ugly reality.

 

[inthepool]

I wonder sometimes how the human race advanced itself considering the overwhelming amount of selfishness out there. All you hear these days is, "Your pilots sold ours out!" Right, because it's one pilot group's duty to look out for another pilot group's well being. You guys pi$$ and moan about pay cuts and concessions, well I'll make you a deal. I'll take your apparently crappy job, and you can have my tons o fun CFI gig (mayo sandwich for lunch AGAIN today) How quickly we forget our roots... Be happy for what you have, because there's vast numbers out there who only wish we had it.

 

[avrodriver]

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time replying but, no one is forgetting our roots here.....are we dissing you somehow??? Are we selling you out in anyway??? Are we talking smack about CFI's??? Wake up.......we know you work hard.......wouldn't you like to get to the next level and say.....ahh man this was worth it, instead of I went through all this for this shi.t?? Oh yeah.....get used to the sandwiches, next time you walk through the regional teminal take a look and see how many pilots bring coolers to work, I know I do.....this is the sh.it I'm talking about. You wanna tell me to stop bi.tching cause at least I have a job, well I'll tell you the same thing. Be greatful you've gotten this far in your career, and be greatful you still have a job where someone else is paying for your hours, others are looking to fill your shoes just like your looking to fill mine. Good luck and hang in there......I know how badly I wanted my first, and now second regional job. This is what I was talking about in the above post and now I see it's spreading to people that aren't even in the industry yet. Gimmie my job now, gimmie my upgrade now........I don't care the cost......it'll get better later. Bullsh.it! AD