New rules to obtain ATP.

[wms]

What exactly prevents airlines from hiring a pilot with ATP mins and providing all the required training?

Nothing.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Here is the AC on what is required.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_61-138.pdf

 

[Twisted Mind]

And the final rule.

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/recently_published/media/2120-AJ67.pdf

 

[IBNAV8R]

Ok the FAA has changed the training, testing, experience, and fatiuge requirements. If a pilot fails a checking event they are placed under a special observation program. You claim none of this will work. In your opinion what will work?

PRIA and special tracking have my support - to a point. At some point, one should be able to overcome past failures - 3 years? 5 years?

But, the issue is allowing weak pilots to progress. Renslow had had several failures but continued to fly. I don't know anyone at Colgan but my guess is this particular captain probably had a reputation among the other pilots. Sim time, rest, flight time rules, ground training or whether the FO had an ATP made absolutely no difference.

While I'm utterly against using FDR/CVR data for disciplinary action, a plethora of FOQA-triggered events might also provide a clue about someone who shouldn't be here.

 

[livin'thesim]

If the regionals are not able to find a sufficient number of pilots who have an ATP, they will simply have to build into the initial new hire course all of the additional items that a 142 school would have to provide.

Probably add four or five days to the ground school. Sim training would be largely the same.

 

[Golden Falcon]

Wasn't the Colgan crash really just the result of letting a pilot with marginal skills move up the ranks?

Just like giving passing grades to failing high school students, sometimes you have to tell someone that the left seat, and in fact the flight deck might not be the right job for them.

I would say in my substantial years as a sim instructor, I have run into two or three high time captains that really should be in another line of work. They just don't have the flight deck mindset.

Probably a combination of that...and fatigue...

 

[bailout]

What exactly prevents airlines from hiring a pilot with ATP mins and providing all the required training?

Nothing.

If the regionals are not able to find a sufficient number of pilots who have an ATP, they will simply have to build into the initial new hire course all of the additional items that a 142 school would have to provide.

Probably add four or five days to the ground school. Sim training would be largely the same.

Nope, the required training has to be done OUTSIDE of any air carrier.

 

[Andy Neill]

Nope, the required training has to be done OUTSIDE of any air carrier.

I'm not seeing that in the previously posted references in this thread. Can you cite the paragraph stating this?

 

[Flying Ninja]

Rumor has it the 6 hours (of 10 required) in the Level C or D sim for the new ATP rule will run up to $1000 per hour. Enjoy. That.

 

[bailout]

I'm not seeing that in the previously posted references in this thread. Can you cite the paragraph stating this?

OK, I wasn't entirely correct from what I heard, but this is what I found in the rule. Basically it says that an air carrier can offer the course, but it cannot be part of initial or new hire training and therefore must be separate. Since the airlines are not in the business to offer 'flight training' and lack the personnel, I doubt any of them will offer such a course, they will just send them to FlightSafety, but either way, it won't be free to the new hire.

To those commenters that suggested the ATP CTP be incorporated into air carrier initial training because the subjects are already taught or because the training only applies to pilots in part 121 operations, the FAA disagrees. The ATP CTP is the base upon which a pilot must build. The concepts in the course will apply to any pilot who flies a large turbine aircraft regardless of
operating rule part and therefore has value to pilots flying outside of part 121. The ATP CTP will cover topics the air carrier is not required to teach. For those general knowledge areas that are currently part of a part 121 initial training program, the FAA has modified subpart N to remove those requirements and reduce ground training for those pilots who have completed the ATP CTP. A pilot in an air carrier training program receives training specific to the air carrier?s operation and the specific aircraft that pilot is going to fly. Even if the subjects are offered by an air carrier in initial training, the pilot is focused primarily on learning the company operation and the specific type of aircraft they will fly, not on broader, foundational concepts that the ATP CTP
is designed to provide.

2. Training Providers
Due to the FSTD requirement in the ATP CTP, the FAA proposed that the course be
conducted only by the following certificate holders who are approved to sponsor an FSTD under
14 CFR part 60: a part 141 pilot school, a part 142 training center, or a part 119 certificate holder
authorized to conduct operations under parts 121 or 135.

Although part 121 and part 135 operators may elect to offer this training for their pilots, it would remain separate from part 121 and part 135 training requirements. Because the proposed ATP CTP is part of the basic certification requirements for an ATP certificate, air carriers who elect to offer this training would be required to provide the course to their pilots prior to beginning initial training.

 

[Flyin2low]

It's Pay for Training all over again. Now mandated by the FAA instead of management.

 

[Andy Neill]

OK, I wasn't entirely correct from what I heard, but this is what I found in the rule. Basically it says that an air carrier can offer the course, but it cannot be part of initial or new hire training and therefore must be separate. Since the airlines are not in the business to offer 'flight training' and lack the personnel, I doubt any of them will offer such a course, they will just send them to FlightSafety, but either way, it won't be free to the new hire.

...
2. Training Providers
Due to the FSTD requirement in the ATP CTP, the FAA proposed that the course be conducted only by the following certificate holders who are approved to sponsor an FSTD under 14 CFR part 60: a part 141 pilot school, a part 142 training center, or a part 119 certificate holder authorized to conduct operations under parts 121 or 135.

Regionals are part 119 certified for part 121 operations. Note that shortly following your included quote was this bit:
The FAA has determined authorizing training providers for the ATP CTP will be limited to certificate holders conducting operations under parts 121 or 135, and ...

It goes on to say this is precisely because those carriers have the necessary management and training structure required.

Although part 121 and part 135 operators may elect to offer this training for their pilots, it would remain separate from part 121 and part 135 training requirements. Because the proposed ATP CTP is part of the basic certification requirements for an ATP certificate, air carriers who elect to offer this training would be required to provide the course to their pilots prior to beginning initial training.

Even though you italicized this last part, it seems to be personal conjecture rather than FAA determination. It seems to me that the regional airline that is finding it hard to find qualified applicants will seek those who meet the time requirements for ATP then provide the requisite training that will meet both sub part N and the ATP CTP as part of their initial ground and sim training.

 

[bailout]

That last part came right from the final rule also. I agree as it is written that 121, 135, 141 and 142 can all offer the training, but it is also written that it cannot be absorbed into or be part of initial new hire training. Places like FSI already have these programs in place and have already talked with several airlines which is why I would think that most, if not all regionals, will simply either send their new hires there, or they will have to take that course before they are considered to be hired in the first place. Bottom line that I see, is that the pilot will have to pay for it out of his own pocket. I just can't see the regionals laying out the money for this program.

 

[sinkrate]

That last part came right from the final rule also. I agree as it is written that 121, 135, 141 and 142 can all offer the training, but it is also written that it cannot be absorbed into or be part of initial new hire training. Places like FSI already have these programs in place and have already talked with several airlines which is why I would think that most, if not all regionals, will simply either send their new hires there, or they will have to take that course before they are considered to be hired in the first place. Bottom line that I see, is that the pilot will have to pay for it out of his own pocket. I just can't see the regionals laying out the money for this program.

Several regionals are well on the way to FAA approval for their programs. The so called majors are too. They have had the authority to issue ATP certificates for many years. The syllabi for their 'approved' initial and upgrade programs had to be shuffled and an additional 'course' added but it is pretty much done. FSI, CAE and PanAm among others are spooling up programs for their corporate clients. They operate as FAR 142 'approved' schools with authority to issue type ratings and ATP certificates. FSI's regional client base they provide full training for has shrunk to just a couple of carriers. It is a small and dwindling segment of their business. The corporate side is much more profitable. The sim providers that sell individual type ratings for air carrier AC will need to come up with a program too.

 

[wms]

Where there's a will, there's a waiver.

 

[livin'thesim]

Why would a regional pay FSI for a course of training when all they need to do is add some more ground school?

They are already doing sim training, so why duplicate it?

 

[Twisted Mind]

Living, The new rule says the ground and flight training is a prerequisit for the initial 121 training.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

It's Pay for Training all over again. Now mandated by the FAA instead of management.

Let the applicant pay for it. The CTP curriculum is dead-on what a new hire needs before being considered for the job.

A vast majority of regional FOs have zero concept of simple swept-wing aerodynamics, energy management, etc. I've even seen a few use the rudder during turns. Why? Why? Why?

Y'all need to read some books instead of expecting to be spoon fed during training and IOE, then never picking up a book for the next five years as you make the same mistakes over and over again, all the while bitching about the "lifer" in "your" seat.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Simple,
Hire them as pilot cadet, train to regs, promote to pilot trainee.

 

[NEDude]

Anyone want to partner up and buy an old BE-1900 sim or something?