New Rest Rules and Commuting.....

[rickair7777]

Congress legislated that the new Flight/Duty/Rest rules be IN EFFECT by 1 Aug of this year. There is a three year waiting period, starting 1 Aug, 2010, for when all -121 pilots would need an ATP.

The only way the rules will not be changed is if Congress changes the law, as the Shuster guy, above, was attempting to do.

Commuting was talked about, but will not be addressed in the new Flight/Duty/Rest rules. Some of the key changes are a 13 hour max duty day, reduced if the pilot starts late/early, or if there are lots of legs, more than 8 hours of flying allowed (in the 13 or less hour duty day...I think 11???), rest is hotel room to hotel lobby, and duty, rest, and ON CALL time is defined. No more 24/7 on call.

cliff
HKG

Commuting is in there according to this:

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=11857&print=go

That's the FAA proposal.

Is congress overriding the FAA? They can do that, but while congress can pass a law mandating certain rules, that does not mean the FAA cannot add additional rules through the normal rule-making process.

Do you have a link to the bill in congress? Unless that bill has language specifically excluding commuting from duty/rest calculations the FAA can still add commuting rules at their leisure.

 

[IBNAV8R]

The wording in the proposal alluded to the fact that, since commuting takes place on one's own time, it will be difficult, if not impossible to regulate. Also, it acknowledged the difficulty in defining the "local commuting area" and that neither 2 hours of driving nor 2 hours of flying could be considered rest. Furthermore, regulating the time immediately prior to the duty period could have unintended negative consequences. I.e., the person who commuted during a WOCL and was unable to sleep during the regulated period prior to duty, would be more fatigued than a person who had slept at home during the WOCL and commuted during the day for an afternoon,evening trip.

That said, I don't put it past either congress or the FAA to totally bone things up.

 

[pilotyip]

Neither do I. However, if the final rule is published on 8/1/2011, you can't expect for it to be effective immediately.

no, in fact it would be almost impossible. Just looking for a reference if there is one

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

This should not be regulated. You can not regulate what a pilot does on their own time. The FAA cannot regulate that a crew member go to bed at a certain time on the RON, either.

I see the point in theory, but where does it stop? What if a pilot drives 4 -5 hours to get to the airport, how do you regulate that?

It is the pilot's responsibility to prepare for work, show up on time, sober, rested and ready to fly. They can random test for drugs and alcohol, but there is no way to test if someone is rested.

 

[pilotyip]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

what if they work on their car, play golf or stay up and watch TV during their pre-duty period, shouldn't that be regulated also.

 

[rickair7777]

what if they work on their car, play golf or stay up and watch TV during their pre-duty period, shouldn't that be regulated also.

Exactly. All pilots should report to a company barracks in the airport 9 hours prior to show for mandatory bunk time. You can get up ONCE during that period to take a piss.

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly. All pilots should report to a company barracks in the airport 9 hours prior to show for mandatory bunk time. You can get up ONCE during that period to take a piss.

Yes This would be the ultimate in safety. Your flight departs at 1600, you are required to report to the company and be assigned bunk 5B in room 7 at 0700. People are still going to fly tired. There is no way you switch from a daytime to a night time routine and not have fatigue issues. To have a fatigue regulation without controlled napping in the cockpit is just a joke. Other countries use it because it has been shown to be the best thing to combat short term fatigue.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

I didn't know that you lived on the airport property... We ALL commute. If commuting gains any regulations, you can bet there will be something in there about driving in as well. If you live in Clemson, SC and drive in, is that any different than living in Greenville, SC and flying? What about those guys who live up in the mountains of GA?

Safety is about acceptable risk, not complete absence of risk.

 

[nimtz]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

Sure Joe. Logically then if a 1.5 hour drive from distant suburbs turns into 3 because of a jack knifed tractor trailer it will the pilot's responbility to call in fatigued and forfeit his/her pay. Always good to have a wise old sage like yourself asking questions.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So, should a pilot be able to commute on a redeye from the west coast to begin a 12 hour day on the east coast? Is that safe?

Is this about true safety...or is it about selective safety when it suits us?

I personally don't think commuting should be included, however based on what some are asking, that is a logical conclusion to this....These "new rules" could be even worse than what we have now....Something to think about...

Does everyone realize that the proposed CDO/nap/high speed rules would be even worse than what we have now? Does everyone realize that these rules will probably result in MORE days at work and fewer days at home? All this while you will still be tired if you have a 430 duty in with a 10 hour overnight.

 

[Jim]

It's also how you commute. When I commute LAS-HNL in our A330s, I have a bunk in the crew rest module to sleep. Nothing fatiguing about that.

 

[Freebrd]

result in MORE days at work and fewer days at home? .

haha pbs already doing that for us :nuts:

 

[pilotyip]

So, should a pilot be able to commute on a redeye from the west coast to begin a 12 hour day on the east coast? Is that safe?

Is this about true safety...or is it about selective safety when it suits us?

I personally don't think commuting should be included, however based on what some are asking, that is a logical conclusion to this....These "new rules" could be even worse than what we have now....Something to think about...

Does everyone realize that the proposed CDO/nap/high speed rules would be even worse than what we have now? Does everyone realize that these rules will probably result in MORE days at work and fewer days at home? All this while you will still be tired if you have a 430 duty in with a 10 hour overnight.

Nice touch of reality, rest is an individual responsibility, that pilots most handle with no problems. There are no rules will always provide a pilot who wide awake. fully alert, and ready to handle a 12 hour duty day starting at 0400.

 

[tomgoodman]

There are no rules will always provide a pilot who wide awake. fully alert, and ready to handle a 12 hour duty day starting at 0400.

True. The only fair solution is to give each pilot an "alertness quiz" at sign-in.
Now what are some good questions for the test? They should be easy enough for even a new-hire or a geezer to answer if they are wide awake, but tough enough to screen out exhausted zombies. For example:

Crew Scheduling calls you with a "good deal". Should you...
a) Snap it up
b) Begin talking in French
c) Laugh hysterically
d) Kick yourself for answering the phone

Other suggestions for the quiz?

 

[johnpeace]

Nice touch of reality, rest is an individual responsibility, that pilots most handle with no problems. There are no rules will always provide a pilot who wide awake. fully alert, and ready to handle a 12 hour duty day starting at 0400.

Well, no...but there can be substantial changes to the rules to prevent our companies from standing in the way of exercising that individual responsibility.

9 hrs between airport van rides just isn't enough time to rest following and preceding a 12-14 hr duty day.

 

[agrrlpilot]

Hah! It's called home-basing. At the Colgan hearings, the investigators asked enough questions to make it plain that the Colgan people knew their pilots couldn't afford to be based in 4 or 5 of the most expensive cities in the US and actually expected their pilots to commute to work. Not that they made any provisions, except for the wink and nod that crew lounges were not to be used for sleep/rest purposes.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well, no...but there can be substantial changes to the rules to prevent our companies from standing in the way of exercising that individual responsibility.

9 hrs between airport van rides just isn't enough time to rest following and preceding a 12-14 hr duty day.

Are you willing to give that up for 2-3 more nights away from home? That's the result of making every overnight longer with the short legs we do....Personally, I'd rather suck it up and enjoy more time at home.

It's not dangerous...It's simply not ideal...There is a difference.

 

[ualdriver]

Are you willing to give that up for 2-3 more nights away from home? That's the result of making every overnight longer with the short legs we do....Personally, I'd rather suck it up and enjoy more time at home.

It's not dangerous...It's simply not ideal...There is a difference.

Hmmmm.....methinks the senior RJ captain is more concerned about his personal schedule......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Hmmmm.....methinks the senior RJ captain is more concerned about his personal schedule......

Hmmm....methinks at least 75% of pilots if given the choice, would rather have more time at home than longer overnights...The 25% that would rather get more sleep can bid the 4 day trips with 12 hour overnights.

I bid the tough 3 day trips....They are hard, but they aren't dangerous.

Fatigue has many components. One is how much time away from home. Another is what time do you duty in....If I have four 4day trips with duty-ins at 430AM, I'm going to be tired every single morning...No getting around it. Should we ban early duty ins too? How about redeyes? How about night freight....If you want a 9-5 M-F job, pick something else...

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Are you willing to give that up for 2-3 more nights away from home? That's the result of making every overnight longer with the short legs we do....Personally, I'd rather suck it up and enjoy more time at home.

It's not dangerous...It's simply not ideal...There is a difference.

Who says we have to give up more nights at home? THAT is something to be addressed in contract negotiations (improved trip and duty rigs). These things even themselves out in the end.

You speak like these changes coming down the line (good changes) are going to ruin everybody's QOL! What are you, management or something?

Peace.

Rekks

 

[ualdriver]

Hmmm....methinks at least 75% of pilots if given the choice, would rather have more time at home than longer overnights...The 25% that would rather get more sleep can bid the 4 day trips with 12 hour overnights.

I bid the tough 3 day trips....They are hard, but they aren't dangerous.

Fatigue has many components. One is how much time away from home. Another is what time do you duty in....If I have four 4day trips with duty-ins at 430AM, I'm going to be tired every single morning...No getting around it. Should we ban early duty ins too? How about redeyes? How about night freight....If you want a 9-5 M-F job, pick something else...

I am not sure about your conjecture about having to accept these improved rest rules -OR- accept less time at home. But let's put that aside...

You said that you bid tough 3 day trips. I assume they are highly efficient trips that give you the 18 days off and that 6 figure salary you have bragged about in previous posts on this forum. I think my "methinks" from my post above was not far off base at all. You seem pretty concerned about how these rest rules might affect YOUR schedule.

OK, so those TOUGH, 3 day trips aren't hard on YOU because you are senior (and by definition thereofore in the minority of pilots) and you get lots of days off to rest to recover from that tough trip. Also, as a senior pilot making 6 figures you probably can afford a nice home in a quiet neighborhood with a comfortable lifestyle. That's great for you.

What if you and your senior F/O call in sick for that tough 3 day? I hear ASA is running your reserves pretty ragged. How is that TOUGH 3 day going to be for that junior F/O reserve that has min days off and doesn't have the opportunity to recover like you do? Maybe that reserve has been busting his a$$ all month and he gets that TOUGH 3 day to end a difficult month. Not so good for him, eh?

Maybe these rest rules are not being designed to protect a super senior RJ Captain with 18 days off a month, a few weeks of vacation, and a six figure salary that affords him a nice home with a comfortable, quiet bed in which to recover? Maybe they're designed to protect the pilots who are getting 10 or 11 days off, running ragged, and perhaps don't enjoy the lifestyle that you have told us about in previous postings on this forum?

 

[CesnaCaptn]

If I have four 4day trips with duty-ins at 430AM, I'm going to be tired every single morning...No getting around it. Should we ban early duty ins too? How about redeyes? How about night freight....If you want a 9-5 M-F job, pick something else...

Or you can have regulations that parallel the duty and rest rules we have at my major airline. Duty in at 4:30? Max duty day is 10 hours scheduled, with up to a 1 hour extension due to irops. This duty language automatically requires you to either have a longer rest period per calender day, or prevents back to back early morning show times. The rule applies to any duty that touches 2am to 4:59am.

Another point is that we have max scheduled duty of 12:30 hours, which can be extended to 14 hours.

 

[pilotyip]

Who says we have to give up more nights at home? THAT is something to be addressed in contract negotiations (improved trip and duty rigs). These things even themselves out in the end.

You speak like these changes coming down the line (good changes) are going to ruin everybody's QOL! What are you, management or something?

Peace.

Rekks

There are always these unintended consequences, only time will tell what changes will come about because of this rule change. However it is pretty well assured that it will take more pilots to fly the same number of trips. This means more cost with the same revenue, pressure on the bottom line. Who picks up the difference in bottom line return, employees? or consumers?. Not to mention this being combined with the coming pilot shortage, where will the new hires will need an ATP and 1500 hours; it will be interesting to watch.

 

[makersmarc]

There are always these unintended consequences, only time will tell what changes will come about because of this rule change. However it is pretty well assured that it will take more pilots to fly the same number of trips. This means more cost with the same revenue, pressure on the bottom line. Who picks up the difference in bottom line return, employees? or consumers?. Not to mention this being combined with the coming pilot shortage, where will the new hires will need an ATP and 1500 hours; it will be interesting to watch.

Well said.

One thing to consider is that the new duty/rest rules impact ALL carriers equally, so there will be no unfair cost advantage. Management will scream that this will hurt the bottom line, but it hurts their competition's bottom line as well.

 

[Data]

You guys are fooling yourselves if you think this won't lead to more days away from home and fewer credits per day. That is the way government regulations work. The best solution would be to leave everything alone and perhaps change one thing at a time. My suggestion, 9 hours minimum at the hotel. Then we can work from there.

 

[makersmarc]

The end result of the new rest rules is a moot (mute for those of you in Rio Linda) point. We can't change the new rules at this juncture. We are all participants in this great laboratory of airline scheduling.

Wait and see what the end result is. My prediction? Pilots will whine and complain about their schedules, and management will claim that they can't make a profit with "these high labor costs."

 

[pilotyip]

Well said.

One thing to consider is that the new duty/rest rules impact ALL carriers equally, so there will be no unfair cost advantage. Management will scream that this will hurt the bottom line, but it hurts their competition's bottom line as well.

you are forgetting that it is the consumer of airline tickets that will determine what can be charged for an airline ticket

 

[regionalcap]

Who says we have to give up more nights at home? THAT is something to be addressed in contract negotiations (improved trip and duty rigs). These things even themselves out in the end.

You speak like these changes coming down the line (good changes) are going to ruin everybody's QOL! What are you, management or something?

Peace.

Rekks

Exactly. Negotiate for better rigs and a higher min day so you can have those longer overnights.

 

[nimtz]

Are you willing to give that up for 2-3 more nights away from home? That's the result of making every overnight longer with the short legs we do....Personally, I'd rather suck it up and enjoy more time at home.

It's not dangerous...It's simply not ideal...There is a difference.

Joe I fly with plenty of scumbags hired at my airline from 1983-1985 that have this mentality. ME ME ME...:uzi:

BTW what kind of professional uses the term 'suck it up' when it comes to the subject of being rested for duty?!?