New Rest Rules and Commuting.....

[rickair7777]

Congress legislated that the new Flight/Duty/Rest rules be IN EFFECT by 1 Aug of this year. There is a three year waiting period, starting 1 Aug, 2010, for when all -121 pilots would need an ATP.

The only way the rules will not be changed is if Congress changes the law, as the Shuster guy, above, was attempting to do.

Commuting was talked about, but will not be addressed in the new Flight/Duty/Rest rules. Some of the key changes are a 13 hour max duty day, reduced if the pilot starts late/early, or if there are lots of legs, more than 8 hours of flying allowed (in the 13 or less hour duty day...I think 11???), rest is hotel room to hotel lobby, and duty, rest, and ON CALL time is defined. No more 24/7 on call.

cliff
HKG

Commuting is in there according to this:

http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=11857&print=go

That's the FAA proposal.

Is congress overriding the FAA? They can do that, but while congress can pass a law mandating certain rules, that does not mean the FAA cannot add additional rules through the normal rule-making process.

Do you have a link to the bill in congress? Unless that bill has language specifically excluding commuting from duty/rest calculations the FAA can still add commuting rules at their leisure.

 

[IBNAV8R]

The wording in the proposal alluded to the fact that, since commuting takes place on one's own time, it will be difficult, if not impossible to regulate. Also, it acknowledged the difficulty in defining the "local commuting area" and that neither 2 hours of driving nor 2 hours of flying could be considered rest. Furthermore, regulating the time immediately prior to the duty period could have unintended negative consequences. I.e., the person who commuted during a WOCL and was unable to sleep during the regulated period prior to duty, would be more fatigued than a person who had slept at home during the WOCL and commuted during the day for an afternoon,evening trip.

That said, I don't put it past either congress or the FAA to totally bone things up.

 

[pilotyip]

Neither do I. However, if the final rule is published on 8/1/2011, you can't expect for it to be effective immediately.

no, in fact it would be almost impossible. Just looking for a reference if there is one

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

This should not be regulated. You can not regulate what a pilot does on their own time. The FAA cannot regulate that a crew member go to bed at a certain time on the RON, either.

I see the point in theory, but where does it stop? What if a pilot drives 4 -5 hours to get to the airport, how do you regulate that?

It is the pilot's responsibility to prepare for work, show up on time, sober, rested and ready to fly. They can random test for drugs and alcohol, but there is no way to test if someone is rested.

 

[pilotyip]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

what if they work on their car, play golf or stay up and watch TV during their pre-duty period, shouldn't that be regulated also.

 

[rickair7777]

what if they work on their car, play golf or stay up and watch TV during their pre-duty period, shouldn't that be regulated also.

Exactly. All pilots should report to a company barracks in the airport 9 hours prior to show for mandatory bunk time. You can get up ONCE during that period to take a piss.

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly. All pilots should report to a company barracks in the airport 9 hours prior to show for mandatory bunk time. You can get up ONCE during that period to take a piss.

Yes This would be the ultimate in safety. Your flight departs at 1600, you are required to report to the company and be assigned bunk 5B in room 7 at 0700. People are still going to fly tired. There is no way you switch from a daytime to a night time routine and not have fatigue issues. To have a fatigue regulation without controlled napping in the cockpit is just a joke. Other countries use it because it has been shown to be the best thing to combat short term fatigue.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

I didn't know that you lived on the airport property... We ALL commute. If commuting gains any regulations, you can bet there will be something in there about driving in as well. If you live in Clemson, SC and drive in, is that any different than living in Greenville, SC and flying? What about those guys who live up in the mountains of GA?

Safety is about acceptable risk, not complete absence of risk.

 

[nimtz]

I'm a little confused....I thought we needed rest and we needed shorter days...Shouldn't commuting be counted towards that? If it is all about safety, then your choice to commute should be included in duty time....

Sure Joe. Logically then if a 1.5 hour drive from distant suburbs turns into 3 because of a jack knifed tractor trailer it will the pilot's responbility to call in fatigued and forfeit his/her pay. Always good to have a wise old sage like yourself asking questions.

 

[JoeMerchant]

So, should a pilot be able to commute on a redeye from the west coast to begin a 12 hour day on the east coast? Is that safe?

Is this about true safety...or is it about selective safety when it suits us?

I personally don't think commuting should be included, however based on what some are asking, that is a logical conclusion to this....These "new rules" could be even worse than what we have now....Something to think about...

Does everyone realize that the proposed CDO/nap/high speed rules would be even worse than what we have now? Does everyone realize that these rules will probably result in MORE days at work and fewer days at home? All this while you will still be tired if you have a 430 duty in with a 10 hour overnight.

 

[Jim]

It's also how you commute. When I commute LAS-HNL in our A330s, I have a bunk in the crew rest module to sleep. Nothing fatiguing about that.

 

[Freebrd]

result in MORE days at work and fewer days at home? .

haha pbs already doing that for us :nuts:

 

[pilotyip]

So, should a pilot be able to commute on a redeye from the west coast to begin a 12 hour day on the east coast? Is that safe?

Is this about true safety...or is it about selective safety when it suits us?

I personally don't think commuting should be included, however based on what some are asking, that is a logical conclusion to this....These "new rules" could be even worse than what we have now....Something to think about...

Does everyone realize that the proposed CDO/nap/high speed rules would be even worse than what we have now? Does everyone realize that these rules will probably result in MORE days at work and fewer days at home? All this while you will still be tired if you have a 430 duty in with a 10 hour overnight.

Nice touch of reality, rest is an individual responsibility, that pilots most handle with no problems. There are no rules will always provide a pilot who wide awake. fully alert, and ready to handle a 12 hour duty day starting at 0400.

 

[tomgoodman]

There are no rules will always provide a pilot who wide awake. fully alert, and ready to handle a 12 hour duty day starting at 0400.

True. The only fair solution is to give each pilot an "alertness quiz" at sign-in.
Now what are some good questions for the test? They should be easy enough for even a new-hire or a geezer to answer if they are wide awake, but tough enough to screen out exhausted zombies. For example:

Crew Scheduling calls you with a "good deal". Should you...
a) Snap it up
b) Begin talking in French
c) Laugh hysterically
d) Kick yourself for answering the phone

Other suggestions for the quiz?