New pilot, career advice needed (long)

[VNugget]

Well, here is my situation. I graduated high school in 2001 (in San Jose, Calif.) and have been wallowing in community college without any clear plans since. I had the vague intention of transferring to a 4-year college to get a BS in computer science, but was never really serious or enthusiastic about it.

Recently, I made the realization that aviation will most definitely be my career. In the past week or so, I have been doing a ton of reading (especially this messge board) and learned a bit about the career paths that different pilots take. Like most of you, I have an incredible love for flying, and would be extatic if I end up doing ANYTHING up in the air for a living... all the way from dusting crops to flying "heavy metal" for the majors. (Well, maybe except for that cropdusting thing... it looks like fun but I hear the pay isn't so great. And I know not to expect anything to do with the majors anytime soon.)

I got all kinds of crazy ideas, about ERAU and such, but those quickly fizzed away, as my family isn't made of money. Now I have formulated some other plans, but more on that later.

From all the reading I've done, it seems that most people bootstrap their aviation career by CFI-ing (on the side of either going to school or working another job and living on ramen noodles, in classic starving artist fashion) to build up hours with which to move on to higher levels of the ladder. (ermm.. "branches of the tree" seems more appropriate.)

This is where my situation in particular comes into focus. I recently found out that a local community college, Foothill College, has an aviation program, and is in giving ground school classes for every type of cert -- up to and including ATP. In fact, I already signed up for PPL ground school next quarter (beginning Jan 6), which, for both quarters, will cost me exactly $42... much cheaper than any of the local FBOs. When that's done next summer, I will take the actual flight lessons, and fly often so as to spend less hours (meanwhile living at home and throwing all my cash from my part-time job, along with any needed help from my parents, into school and flying lessons). Up to that point, my plans are clear.

However, after that several decision trees open up.

1. I know for sure that I'm getting a 4-year degree, but now I am not sure which kind. When I decided to go for an aviation career, (and was initially thinking about ERAU) an Aeronautical Science BS seemed natural enough. However,it seems to be the opinion of many that aviation jobs do not care what kind of degree someone has, only that he has one that shows he can manage hard studying, and it is actally preferrable to get a non-aviation degree so as to expand your horizon and have a bit of a backup in case the worst happens. So, any insight into this issue? Either way, I will transfer to San Jose State and get a BS either in Computer Science or Aviation Technology there. I will not be making the transfer immediately, so I have some time to mull it over, but I'd like to start gathering insight now.

2. CFI. Unless someone here talks me out of it, it looks like I will take the "standard" path and start CFI'ing early on to a) build hours, b) learn more about flying, c) meet people in the industry and "open doors", and d) make some cash for school and flying. I don't know whether I will have yet transferred to San Jose State at that time, and I will still probably be living at home, since as I understand it, the CFI life (and aviation in general, nowadays) is very tough and I will NOT be able to bring in enough money to fully support myself. I become especially worried by looking at all the CFIs at RHV who have years and years and millions of hours of experience... how will I be able to compete with people like that for students? Now, as for my actual question: Should I get the CFI certificate as soon as possible and start instructing to make money for college and further training, or should I stick with my current part-time job and get a couple of ratings, such as instrument, commercial, and multi first so I have some more experience befor I start instructing?

Bah, well it seems I got caught up in my writing and already forgot half the questions I was going to ask, but I will post the rest as they clarify and come back to me. Anyway, if you have read this far and are able to answer some of my questions and/or give me some advice, I appreciate it a LOT

It would also be great if it just so happened that one of you lives in or around the San Jose/RHV area; maybe we could get together over a cup of coffee (or a flight yoke) and chat about flying.

 

[bobbysamd]

Career preparation

First off, I like your attitude about willing to do anything as a pilot. I hope you maintain that attitude because humility will get you far in this business. So many people say that unless they get an RJ FO job immediately out of flight school at 200 hours they will give up. That is unrealistic and faulty thinking. It just doesn't work that way - despite what the flight school "career consultants" try to tell you.

I like the idea of you going to your junior college to earn your ratings. It is essentially a given that you need a B.S. or B.A. to be the least bit competitive for the majors. People will argue. Just search the topic on the board. It is not impossible to be hired at the airlines with less than a four-year degree, but, face it. Competition for the very few jobs to be had with the majors is fierce, and will be more fierce, especially if United goes under and turns loose more qualified and experienced pilots. The airlines are looking primarily for the degree. You have to present the best quals possible and the degree is one of them.

Now, I'm in the minority about liking an Aeronautical Science degree. I flight instructed at ERAU and was always impressed with the education our flight students received. I believe that one can do quite a few things in aviation and outside if one has the degree. But, there's nothing at all wrong with getting the degree in another major. Lots of pilots major in Computer Science. Some major in Meteorology, which is logical because weather is so important to pilots. But, with the courses needed for a met degree, such as physics, math, etc., you can do such things as teach school if you must. Business Administration is another good major. But, if you like English, there's nothing wrong with majoring in that.

You also have the right idea by earning your CFI and going to work as an instructor to build hours. People who believe that they can get a non-instructing flying job right out of school at 200 hours aren't being realistic. CFI is the traditional entry-level job. Don't worry about all the others instructors with their years and years and millions of hours of experience. They were all new instructors at one time. You will be able to compete. All you will need is a chance.

Whether you decide to finish everything right away and instruct while finishing college would depend a lot on how well you can manage your time. Learning to fly requires a serious commitment. Finishing your ratings efficiently requires a similar commitment. So many people start flying and intend to go to and/or finish college. They get caught up with working and flying and building experience and think less and less about college. The farther away they are from school mode, the harder it is for them to go to college. Therefore, I suggest that people go to college while still in school mode before starting to fly.

I think that you're on the right track. For sure, follow the economy and aviation hiring trends.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[FlyingSig]

Aeronautical Science Degree

You're not quite in the minority about the air science program. My opinion is that you should major in what you love. It's a lot easier to get the good grades that will open doors after school when you enjoy going to class vs. dragging yourself through boring subjects and just getting by to ensure you have a backup incase you poke your eye out or something like that.

All good arguments to have that back up, just wouldn't have worked for me persoanlly.

Oh, and about the CFI... yes. I got mine when I was 19 and started instructing fraternity brothers. By the time I graduated I had enough hours to interview for a chief flight instructor position at a busy FBO (and even got the job).

 

[Socalplt]

VNugget

Sounds to me like you have a good plan. Get the CFI rating in the next year or so, then instruct your last couple years in college. When you graduate, you may be able to move on to a regional or 135 job.

Another option would be the military if that interest you.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

VNugget-

Send me a PM and maybe we can meet for lunch or shoot 9 holes.

Your story sounds exactly like mine 15yrs ago. I too went to Foothill and SJSU, taught at RHV and still live in San Jose.

I have already followed the route that you seem to want to follow and hope I can help you out. I still work with some of the students at SJSU so I can share some first hand experiences with you.

Good luck with your decisions!

Cheers!

GP

....31 days and counting....

 

[VNugget]

Thank you all for your responses so far. (GuppyPuppy, I got your PM and thanks for the offer; I sent a reply and I'll take you up on it)

I have to run now, but will reply in detail tonight.

 

[MINIME]

Finish college and get a back up. You're heading the right direction. Follow your dreams BUT.....be prepared, be very prepared to face today's market. Make no mistake about it, it's a very tough one that can even break long term dreams if you're not careful!!

Just being honest

 

[adam_jorgensen]

VNugget, I know exactly how you feel. Trying to sort out all this degree thing along with flying has driven me mad. I'm in the same position as you. Trying to balance out flying with college. I want to fly as much as possible. If I got my commercials after I graduated, I could already have a flying job. I don't care what it is just as long as it involves an airplane and builds me lots of time. My dream of course is to fly for somebody like Air Canada but I don't expect that for at least 13 years when I'm 30. That's when I hope to accomplish it. I have a idea of what I'm going to do. Here in Canada, the airlines are not as picky about 4 year degrees as the USA is (no offence but its true.) What I'm probably going to do is get a diploma in aviation and fly at the same time. Air Canada looks at a deploma being enough. The hireing system goes by points here and I heard that having a degree is only worth 1 point compared to something like 40 points for flying experience. This doesen't mean that I won't get a degree I might still, I'm not leaving out the option.

I plan to have my private pilots license by spring I hope. After I finish high school, I plan to work for a year to earn some money for collage and flight training. I know allot of people will probably bite my head off for this, but I may just concentrate on flying after I get out of high school. I go to a Canadian pilot board and their responses to this whole degree thing is completely different from what I got here. As far as the Canadian airlines are concerned, they just want people to be able to fly an airplane if your applying for them. The degree does help sometimes. In Canada its not required, its just an extra point. Some pilots even said that getting a degree was their biggest mistake they have ever made. When they could have had thousands of hours of flying time, it all went on getting the degree. What I'm going to do is get at least a diploma and if I really need a degree, I will finish it up at college but for now, my big passion lies for flying. This is just what my heart tells me to do and I think I should listen to my instincts. Don't get too confused with this whole degree thing like I did. In Canada, people only tell you to get a degree if your flying so that if you loose your job, you have something to fall back on. What I don't get is why do you want to get a degree that you hope to never use? Canada doesn't have as much layoffs in the airline industry as the USA does. I probably won't loose my job. I'm not being cocky or anything by all means I know I could loose my job at any time but I'm not going to worry about it and not have any fun. If I need the degree then I will get it. I'm not sure at this point. I won't know till later on till I'm more established in my flying. One of the questions I asked was does anybody have any proff that a degree does get you hired more easily? Not many people had an answer to this question.

Not to brag that Canada is a better country or anything. By all means I didn't mean to offend anybody but the differences in the airline industry compared to both countries is shockingly different. Why does the USA have so many layoffs and why is it so competitive there? We didn't have any furloughes after sept 11 and there's actually a pilot shortage here in Canada so the airlines are hiring. We did have one airline that went bankrupt for some reason, but this was before sept 11. It doesn't happen that often in Canada. I doubt that Air Canada would ever go bankrupt too because they are owned by the government. All I'm saying is that the Canadian airlines are not economy based like the USA is. Were more government based. I don't know if that is good or bad. It almost seems like its better because even when the economy is bad, there won't be any layoffs. The competition seems to be less as well although you will always get competition in every job but the way you guys make it sound, you would have to be Chuck Yeager in order to beat the next guy to get hired. Maybe its because there is less people here? There is more people in California then there is in all of Canada!

By the way VNugget, your birthday is on the same day as mine! Only I was born in 1985 instead of 1983. What a small world

 

[Boeingman]

Nugget:

Good attitude kid, you are thinking in the right direction. My only advice is to stay away from degrees in any way related to aviation.

Assume the worst that your aviation career will not pan out and decide what you'd rather do in that scenario. Bottom line is you must have a degree that you can do something with to make a decent living. I can assure you, flying jobs aside, no one outside of aviation cares about aviation related programs. You said it yourself and you are correct, the majors do not care what the degree is in.

I also believe this will be a very tough industry for the forseable future. I think it is imperative to have a good, solid backup plan.

If you're serious about this, I would also invest in a 1st class medical with EKG from a good FAA aeromedical examiner. There is no sense in proceeding any further if you have a disqualifying medical condition.

Finally, I am partial to the military route. Didn't cost me a dime in learning to fly and I flew an awesome airplane. Training was fun as well. Nothing in the civilian world can compare to the type of flying you do in military pilot training.

Good luck

 

[VNugget]

Re the military: I would absolutely love to fly for the military. (In fact it's what I thought about first, before going into thoughts about a civilian career) However, I believe I missed the boat on military flying a couple of years ago when I started doing horrible in high school. Not only did I drop from a 3.8 GPA to mostly C's and D's in senior year, (that's a whoole 'nother story) but I never really did anything that would demonstrate "leadership" or community service, (such as CAP and whatnot) which probably won't put me at the top of any selection list. Not to mention my bad eyesight (which disqualifies me from flying fighter jets) and my mild asthma (which disqualifies me from the USAF to begin with.) Oh, and let's not forget the teeny little detail of me not becoming a US Citizen for another 3 or 4 years.

On the flipside, I did get a 93rd percentile score on the ASVAB and I still need to see a recruiter (and maybe take a MEPS medical) about all my options, just to be absolutely sure. (and probably put the last nail in the coffin )

Now, returning to my current situation... part of my question about getting certs before becomnig a CFI answered itself, since I fond out that having a commmercial license is a prerequisite for CFI. Furthermore, you need 250 hours logged as a requirement for commercial, right? Let's say that I spend a nice 50 hours getting my private and spending around, oh, $5500 on it. Then, I'd need 200 more hours, * $60/hr for a 152, that's $12000, (not even counting instruction for CML) yikes! It looks like I was quite a bit disillusioned and will have to stick with my current part-time job for a lot longer than I originally planned.

As for what type of degree to get, I'm getting a lot of mixed advice, and probably won't decide for a while longer. One thing that kind of urks me, is that I was originally planning on a Computer Science degre as I mentioned in my original post, but I'm sure that you have heard a thing or 2 about the tech industry as of late. Looks like if I go that way, it won't act that great as a "backup."

(My opinion on this flips back and forth every half hour, but) right now I am a little bit more inclined to go for an aviation degree, since I will have more fun (and thus less "work") doing it, and become a better pilot because of it. This will also mean that I place more of my life resources and energy into aviation and would be that much closer to success, rather than spreading them around. On the other hand, as Boeingman and Minime pointed out,(thanks for your honesty) I would also have that much farther to fall in the case of failure. I guess you could call it a gamble, and life isn't something to gamble with, but flying is most definitely my life's biggest dream, and at this point I can't really see myself doing anything else to earn a living (in the long run).

I am looking forward to meeting GuppyPuppy and finding out about SJSU's aviation program, among other things.

And Adam, I don't know a lot of details about The Way Things Are(tm) up there in Canada, but I hope you use sound judgement and wish you good luck in your endevours also. Cool observation about the birthdays, too.

And once again, thanks to all of you for replies and avice!

- Vess

 

[VFR on Top]

Re the military: I would absolutely love to fly for the military. (In fact it's what I thought about first, before going into thoughts about a civilian career) However, I believe I missed the boat on military flying a couple of years ago when I started doing horrible in high school.

Guess again. The military could care less how you did in high school. Put your head down, work hard and do ROTC and you could be flyin' jets on Uncle Sam's dime.

Personally, however, I'd recommend getting your degree and then trying to get a pilot slot in a guard or reserve unit. My CFI did just that, and there are several guys on the board who did so as well--got the all the bennies of military pilot training and are now putting it to work at the airlines. I recommend this because nowadays the military (the Air Force, at least) requires a 10 year commitment after pilot training for guys on active duty. My CFI will be on active duty for about 3 years total for pilot training, F-16 training, and some "seasoning" time at his home guard unit. After that, he'll be grovelling for a regional job like everyone else, but with maybe 1000 TT and 400 hrs of military turbine PIC under his belt. Talk to TankerPuke or maybe some of the others will pipe up.

Closer to home, a friend of mine just interviewed for a pilot slot in the 129th Rescue Wing right there at Moffett Field, and he's still two years away from getting his degree! (Apparently the Air Guard has a deal similar to what the Army Guard has had for some time, a "commission first, graduate later" deal. My friend said if he was selected for the slot, he'd go to the ANG's "OTS", called the Academy of Military Sciences, get his butter bars, go to SUPT, and have up to five years to finish his degree.)

Never say "never"......

 

[Airline Pilot27]

V nugget:
I went to SJSU and majored on Aviation Flight Ops. It was the best bang for the buck Aviation degree. The fact that you live there is an added incentive. It really helps when you start Flight Instructing and then start out at a regional when you don't owe the huge amounts that some of the other well known schools charge. While at SJSU you can join an excellent non profit flying club called The Flying Twenties. That is the route that I took. The industry will pick up again and you want to be sure you get on with an airline as soon as it does.
Good Luck

 

[de727ups]

the degree

vnugget...you need to check out jetcareers.com

I've always been in favor of a non aviation degree if one has other passions besides flying....the airlines don't care what your degree is in. If you simply aren't interested in anything else, then by all means, an aviation degree from SJSU would be fine....just be forwarned that you may regret it someday, as I'm hearing some say they do now.

Adam J....when we preach the need for a degree in the states, it's for good reason. Things are different in Canada....you know more about it than I do. I can give you proof of the need for a degree in the USA.....how about all the degreeless guys I know that missed out on the hiring boom of the late 90's and are still at regionals or second tier freight carriers.

 

[VNugget]

VFR on Top, you're right. I haven't completely ruled it out yet. You've inspired me to go talk to a recruiter and maybe an AFROTC counselor at SJSU to find out about my options. There's a thread going on right now in the Military section, in which people say that I won't have to make any commitment unless I have a guaranteed UPT slot, which I like. (I'm not too enthusiastic looking forward to the MEPS medical, though. They say that any history of any severity of asthma is a disqualifier, and waivers are a bitch to come by.) Actually, I came close to talking to a recruiter once. Before I do it this time, I need to find my ASVAB score sheet, though. Unless they keep records they can pull up.

Anyway, among all the advice I've received, one area where none of it conflicts is to get my CFI cert as soon as possible. However, there's no way I can buy 250-300 hours of time (+ instruction) in "the next year or so" unless I start working nearly (or fully) full time and quit school, save for a class or two per semester/quarter (which... well... is an option that I haven't ruled out yet.) (And that still doesn't address how I'm gonna convince people to pay for flight lessons from some late-teens puke with a piece of paper and a couple a' hundred hours, instead of, say, one of these guys. Well, no one said this was gonna be easy, did they? )

Relating to that, one very very valid warning (from bobbysamd) is about getting farther away from "school mode" (I've read about that in other threads, too) and thus not being able to focus on schoolwork anymore. Heh, I left "school mode" (yet continuing with full-time school, on the physical level) 2+ years ago, and I know exactly what he's talking about. But it seems like if I do the whole 4-year thing and then start with aviation, I'll be way behind.

 

[bobbysamd]

Not really .....

Originally posted by VNugget Relating to that, one very very valid warning (from bobbysamd) is about getting farther away from "school mode" . . . . But it seems like if I do the whole 4-year thing and then start with aviation, I'll be way behind.

I realize that school's a drag, but, in this case, a vital drag. Hiring is slow to nonexistent right now, and it appears that it will stay that way for some time. So, it probably won't make much difference if you start flying full-time two years later, because you may have trouble finding work and/or advancing if you start sooner. In other words, you really won't be behind at all.

If you started college right away and go all the way through your B.S., you'll be something like 23. You said that you were planning to earn your ratings at Foothill College. So, in two years, you would have them done. If Foothill is a California state college, I'd bet that you could transfer every one of your credits to San Jose State. So, you'd have 60 credit hours left. So, then, why can't you go to summer school? You could finish a semester earlier and be done, completely, with college and free to concentrate on flying. Yeah, I know that summer school is a drag, especially in California, but the sacrifice now will be worth it later.

Just some food for thought.

 

[VNugget]

Whoa! Apaprently, the Flying 20's rents 152's for $45/hr wet and their CFIs charge as little as $15/hr. This means, that at 50 hours, my private would only cost $3000! (not counting monthly club dues). The only catch is that I have to transfer first.

 

[Unchilled]

Nugget, you're situation has inspired me to post. I'm in the same boat as you, graduated May 2001 and still coming to terms with the future. I'm too young and dumb to start offering advice, but I will at least explain to you my story and plans; maybe you'll get something useful out of it.

I started the first year out of school getting wasted on the weekends and not getting much accomplished. I enrolled full time at the local community college, in addition to my full time job. I was taking mostly General Ed. type stuff and had plans to transfer out to a university eventually. However, I wasn't taking my classes seriously and ended up dropping some of them, and finishing mediocre in others. I really didn't have much enthusiasm for what I was doing and began to get discouraged with school in general. Fortunately, I decided to enroll in a Private Pilot ground school in the second semester. Shortly after that, I started taking some lessons. I was able to eek out enough cash to get one or two lessons a week at the local airport. I decided aviation was the career I'd set my perverbial sights on.

This school year, I transfered to another community college in Arizona which has a part 141 flight program. Cochise College in beautiful Douglas Arizona. Once I got over living in the middle of freaking nowhere, two miles from the mexican border, I got down to business earning my PPSEL certificate, and am currently working towards higher certificates and ratings. I've also taken up a job full time and taking some classes online toward my AAS degree. No more getting wasted on the weekends, and I'm feeling like I'm getting something accomplished. When I get out of here, I plan on having my CommSEL and an associate's degree. I'll be in debt about $15,000 (not bad considering I'll have 200+ hours and a degree). Going to a public, state funded school is definitely a good option to consider. The biggest benefit is you can get federal student loans to help pay for flight traing. A HUGE plus in my case, since I don't plan on making any kind of decent living for another 6+ years.

Where I go from here is still sort of up in the air. I've decided that I will not pursuit becoming a CFI at this time, although I do plan on instructing sometime down the road. I want to get my bachelor's degree, and that's probably what I'll end up doing next. I don't have an interest in getting an aviation related degree. I like to read philosophy and likely will get a BA degree studying philosophy at the U of A in Tucson. Briefly, I had my mind made up that I would attend ERAU in Prescott. After I realized it would cost upwards of $140k to get a degree there, and talking to former students who recommended I didn't attend the program, I decided it was a bad idea.

My father was an Air Force pilot about 30 years ago before being medically DQ'd. He has always encouraged me to enlist in the military. Well, I had no desire to enlist out of High School, but I've always wanted to fly fast jets! That said, I've recently been looking into enlisting in the Arizona Air National Guard. Tucson just happens to be home of the largest flying ANG unit in the country. I'm thinking there's a very strong possibility that I will enlist when I finish here. I think it would be fun if nothing else. Also, the educational benefits are amazing. I would get free tuition at U of A, $20,000 loan repayment, up to $8,000 cash bonus, and as much as $800/month if I went to school full time. Cant beat that. Also, you get to hang around pilots if you have a job in operations. That's something that could be very valuable if I ever decide to try flying in the military.

Like I said, I can't really give any advice, but hopefully you'll get something useful out of all my rambling.

Good Luck.

One thing I wanted to add, don't get too worried about going into debt to pay for your education/training. A friend of mine I went to High School with recently took out a loan and sunk $25,000 into a giant f*cking SUV to cruise around in. He works at a grocery store and doesn't go to school. Meanwhile, I'm cruising around in my '84 Mercury with 270,000 miles on it. The moral is: don't worry about sinking money into your future because eventually it will pay off, there are much less productive things you could me wasting your money on.

 

[de727ups]

Nice plan...

It's cool you have a strong interest in an area outside aviation. Not sure where a Philosophy major could take you but at least you have a passion for it.

There was recently a post about "what do you drive" at another forum I frequent. I couldn't believe the fancy rigs many of the wannabe pilots are driving....you could easily afford a Cessna 150 for the price of a SUV.

I spent two years at ERAU Prescott and think it's wise you chose to not go there.

The only thing I can't figure out is why you don't want to be a CFI?

 

[Unchilled]

Re: Nice plan...

The only thing I can't figure out is why you don't want to be a CFI?

A few reasons for that, but mainly because I want to get my bachelor's degree out of the way. Eventually I definitely want to be an instructor. I guess I'm just afraid that if I get my CFI now and start instructing, it'll just give me more reasons to put off going out and getting my degree. Maybe once I get established at a university I'll go out and start instructing part time, but for now I'm not going to worry about it. Also, I figure my maturity level will be a little higher and I'll be an all around better pilot a few years down the road than I am now, making me a higher quality instructor.

 

[bobbysamd]

Nice plan, but some more food for thought . . . .

A few reasons for that, but mainly because I want to get my bachelor's degree out of the way. Eventually I definitely want to be an instructor. I guess I'm just afraid that if I get my CFI now and start instructing, it'll just give me more reasons to put off going out and getting my degree. Maybe once I get established at a university I'll go out and start instructing part time, but for now I'm not going to worry about it. Also, I figure my maturity level will be a little higher and I'll be an all around better pilot a few years down the road than I am now, making me a higher quality instructor.

Good rationale, but bear in mind how hard it is for non-instructor low-time pilots to find jobs. In other words, you might consider getting your CFI sooner rather than later if you want to go to work sooner rather than later. Instructing is about the only job entry-level pilots have a fair chance of getting. There are always tons of new pilots trying to get the low-time (P-F-T) banner towing jobs. There aren't as many "tons" of CFIs competing for those jobs.

Having said that, good luck with your plans.