New pilot, career advice needed (long)

[VNugget]

Whoa! Apaprently, the Flying 20's rents 152's for $45/hr wet and their CFIs charge as little as $15/hr. This means, that at 50 hours, my private would only cost $3000! (not counting monthly club dues). The only catch is that I have to transfer first.

 

[Unchilled]

Nugget, you're situation has inspired me to post. I'm in the same boat as you, graduated May 2001 and still coming to terms with the future. I'm too young and dumb to start offering advice, but I will at least explain to you my story and plans; maybe you'll get something useful out of it.

I started the first year out of school getting wasted on the weekends and not getting much accomplished. I enrolled full time at the local community college, in addition to my full time job. I was taking mostly General Ed. type stuff and had plans to transfer out to a university eventually. However, I wasn't taking my classes seriously and ended up dropping some of them, and finishing mediocre in others. I really didn't have much enthusiasm for what I was doing and began to get discouraged with school in general. Fortunately, I decided to enroll in a Private Pilot ground school in the second semester. Shortly after that, I started taking some lessons. I was able to eek out enough cash to get one or two lessons a week at the local airport. I decided aviation was the career I'd set my perverbial sights on.

This school year, I transfered to another community college in Arizona which has a part 141 flight program. Cochise College in beautiful Douglas Arizona. Once I got over living in the middle of freaking nowhere, two miles from the mexican border, I got down to business earning my PPSEL certificate, and am currently working towards higher certificates and ratings. I've also taken up a job full time and taking some classes online toward my AAS degree. No more getting wasted on the weekends, and I'm feeling like I'm getting something accomplished. When I get out of here, I plan on having my CommSEL and an associate's degree. I'll be in debt about $15,000 (not bad considering I'll have 200+ hours and a degree). Going to a public, state funded school is definitely a good option to consider. The biggest benefit is you can get federal student loans to help pay for flight traing. A HUGE plus in my case, since I don't plan on making any kind of decent living for another 6+ years.

Where I go from here is still sort of up in the air. I've decided that I will not pursuit becoming a CFI at this time, although I do plan on instructing sometime down the road. I want to get my bachelor's degree, and that's probably what I'll end up doing next. I don't have an interest in getting an aviation related degree. I like to read philosophy and likely will get a BA degree studying philosophy at the U of A in Tucson. Briefly, I had my mind made up that I would attend ERAU in Prescott. After I realized it would cost upwards of $140k to get a degree there, and talking to former students who recommended I didn't attend the program, I decided it was a bad idea.

My father was an Air Force pilot about 30 years ago before being medically DQ'd. He has always encouraged me to enlist in the military. Well, I had no desire to enlist out of High School, but I've always wanted to fly fast jets! That said, I've recently been looking into enlisting in the Arizona Air National Guard. Tucson just happens to be home of the largest flying ANG unit in the country. I'm thinking there's a very strong possibility that I will enlist when I finish here. I think it would be fun if nothing else. Also, the educational benefits are amazing. I would get free tuition at U of A, $20,000 loan repayment, up to $8,000 cash bonus, and as much as $800/month if I went to school full time. Cant beat that. Also, you get to hang around pilots if you have a job in operations. That's something that could be very valuable if I ever decide to try flying in the military.

Like I said, I can't really give any advice, but hopefully you'll get something useful out of all my rambling.

Good Luck.

One thing I wanted to add, don't get too worried about going into debt to pay for your education/training. A friend of mine I went to High School with recently took out a loan and sunk $25,000 into a giant f*cking SUV to cruise around in. He works at a grocery store and doesn't go to school. Meanwhile, I'm cruising around in my '84 Mercury with 270,000 miles on it. The moral is: don't worry about sinking money into your future because eventually it will pay off, there are much less productive things you could me wasting your money on.

 

[de727ups]

Nice plan...

It's cool you have a strong interest in an area outside aviation. Not sure where a Philosophy major could take you but at least you have a passion for it.

There was recently a post about "what do you drive" at another forum I frequent. I couldn't believe the fancy rigs many of the wannabe pilots are driving....you could easily afford a Cessna 150 for the price of a SUV.

I spent two years at ERAU Prescott and think it's wise you chose to not go there.

The only thing I can't figure out is why you don't want to be a CFI?

 

[Unchilled]

Re: Nice plan...

The only thing I can't figure out is why you don't want to be a CFI?

A few reasons for that, but mainly because I want to get my bachelor's degree out of the way. Eventually I definitely want to be an instructor. I guess I'm just afraid that if I get my CFI now and start instructing, it'll just give me more reasons to put off going out and getting my degree. Maybe once I get established at a university I'll go out and start instructing part time, but for now I'm not going to worry about it. Also, I figure my maturity level will be a little higher and I'll be an all around better pilot a few years down the road than I am now, making me a higher quality instructor.

 

[bobbysamd]

Nice plan, but some more food for thought . . . .

A few reasons for that, but mainly because I want to get my bachelor's degree out of the way. Eventually I definitely want to be an instructor. I guess I'm just afraid that if I get my CFI now and start instructing, it'll just give me more reasons to put off going out and getting my degree. Maybe once I get established at a university I'll go out and start instructing part time, but for now I'm not going to worry about it. Also, I figure my maturity level will be a little higher and I'll be an all around better pilot a few years down the road than I am now, making me a higher quality instructor.

Good rationale, but bear in mind how hard it is for non-instructor low-time pilots to find jobs. In other words, you might consider getting your CFI sooner rather than later if you want to go to work sooner rather than later. Instructing is about the only job entry-level pilots have a fair chance of getting. There are always tons of new pilots trying to get the low-time (P-F-T) banner towing jobs. There aren't as many "tons" of CFIs competing for those jobs.

Having said that, good luck with your plans.

 

[JohnVH]

What a great thread! I too am in the same boat as the origional thread. I actually just took the first intro flight today. Only 1hr of me flying, but loved it. Am going back on thursday for another one. I am more than likely signing up to the aviation college for a full on commercial rating and do the instructor thing too, be rated for twins, all instrument ratings, and the carge rating. I figure the more the better, right? Also get a associate degree in aviation tech. Only downfall, is the large amount of $$$ its going to take in the next couple years.... BUT, I love flying, I have also thought of the backup jobs, so, if it doesnt pan out, I can fall back onto something that pays OK.

Thanks guys.

 

[bobbysamd]

What a great thread! I too am in the same boat as the origional thread. I actually just took the first intro flight today. Only 1hr of me flying, but loved it. Am going back on thursday for another one. I am more than likely signing up to the aviation college for a full on commercial rating and do the instructor thing too, be rated for twins, all instrument ratings, and the carge rating. I figure the more the better, right? Also get a associate degree in aviation tech. Only downfall, is the large amount of $$$ its going to take in the next couple years.... BUT, I love flying, I have also thought of the backup jobs, so, if it doesnt pan out, I can fall back onto something that pays OK.

I know exactly how you feel. I was hooked from the first time I rode in a light airplane. I finally learned how to fly eleven years later.

Good luck with your plans. I'd just suggest that you learn as much about the business and follow hiring trends closely all the while as you train. Also, try to talk to as many professional pilots as you can about the business. The board is a tremendous resource as well.

 

[JohnVH]

Also, try to talk to as many professional pilots as you can about the business. The board is a tremendous resource as well.

I have been! At this point, have talked to a couple commercial airline captains, a few aviation buisnesses, a float/bush pilot, and some others that fly.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Unchilled]

Re: Nice plan, but some more food for thought . . . .

Good rationale, but bear in mind how hard it is for non-instructor low-time pilots to find jobs. In other words, you might consider getting your CFI sooner rather than later if you want to go to work sooner rather than later. Instructing is about the only job entry-level pilots have a fair chance of getting. There are always tons of new pilots trying to get the low-time (P-F-T) banner towing jobs. There aren't as many "tons" of CFIs competing for those jobs.

Having said that, good luck with your plans.

Sometimes I think I'm going about this aviation thing all a$$ backwards. A year ago I wanted to do nearly anything but go out and get a formal, 4-year degree. Now here I am with over 100 hours logged, working on my Commercial and Instrument, and now I'm focusing more on getting my bachelors degree than getting my certificates and ratings. I don't doubt I want a career in aviation, whether it be civilian or military, but I just wish I could get my priorities straight and my immediate goals knocked out. I have no intention of getting any kind of aviation job prior to instucting. Call me crazy.

 

[bobbysamd]

No, not in the least . . . .

This is really the perfect time to catch up on educational priorities that you've been putting off. There's more uncertainty than ever, now that United has filed for bankruptcy. Who knows when there will be any hiring (bearing in mind that no matter how bad things are, there is always some hiring)? No doubt about it, hiring will be slow for some time. So, rather than hurrying up and waiting by sending tons of resumes with no real prospects of callbacks, now is the time to finish the degree.

Chances are, by the time you finish your degree and your ratings, things might be better. You'll will have put your formal schooling behind you and can concentrate solely on flying.

No, you're not crazy at all.

This is also a good time to start flight training. I am no shill for flight schools by any means, but the so-called "career consultants" at these schools have a point when they say that now is the time to train. Times will get better, because they always do, and there will be hiring again. The schools are not as busy and chances are you can receive more individualized attention. Maybe a break in price, too.

Just a little more food for thought - but the four-year degree is really a higher priority, and now's the time to do it.

 

[Timebuilder]

I scanned this thread quickly, and it proves that most of the topics that pop up here will generate a diverse group of opinions.

I like the idea of an alternative degree, ie: non aviation. You never know when you will lose your medical or have other problems such as closings, bankruptcies, furloughs, etc. You need to think ahead to what you would do otherwise.

Unlike many high school aged guys, you are able to form sentences, which is a good thing. Seriously though, look into navy or air force flying to get the best bang for your buck, and become eligible for those GI bill benefits. If you go Army, you may be limited to helo flying which is good, but most of the helo guys are trying to find fixed wing jobs, so why not start there instead of Army helo's. I tried to do the reserves a few years back, but 37 is the top age for that, and even younger to start in a flight program.

Now is the time to start back on a track of academic excellence, no matter if you start at a two or a four year school. Find out what else you would like to do first. If not computer science, then what?

Nothing is stopping you from starting your training for flying now. In fact, some recent good grades, and a PPL may turn the trick for you in your next step, whatever that may be.

Good Luck.

 

[VNugget]

Thanks for posting Unchilled and John. I wish you both good luck and hopefully things will work out for all of us. Like everyone has said, we need to hunker down and prepare for a tough road ahead if we expect to get anywhere in the long run.

Who knows, maybe 15 years from now you'll be co-piloting for me in a 747


Right now I'm trying to reach the SJSU Aviation department to set up an appointment with a counselor over winter break to find out if it'll be viable to go there part-time for the time being, so I can 1) be a SJSU student and therefore eligible to be in their non-profit cheapo club and get going on my PPL and 2) finish up GE stuff, take lower division Av. classes, and maybe pick up a just-in-case AA or AS in the JC's.

I've been looking through their catalog, and it seems like they only give you a Bachelor's degree, but not any certs above Private... even hough they DO have their own FBO at SJC with a couple of planes inlcuding a 727. We'll see, hopefully my visit will clear all this up.

-Vess

 

[csmith]

A lot of good advice on this thread. I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of gaining your 4 year in something else besides aviation. Some degree which has usefullness outside of aviation could reap high rewards when necessary.

The CFI is THE premier certificate for learning. You will learn more about flying from teaching than you will teaching about learning to fly. You can get by without it, but you will miss out on some crucial experience.

Some days/things you never forget:

First flight--Oct 28th, 1988
First solo--December 7, 1988
CFI--December 14, 1989
First airline--GLA
career job--Delta Jan 16, 1997

Good luck to you. You are embarking on the greatest job, although sometimes not the greatest career. I am a testament to that. I hit my goal job at 26 years old with the upgrade to captain at 28 on the 737. It will be a lot of hard work, but then anything worthwhile is. It will all be worth it on those clear, full moon nights at 350 over NYC or over the snow capped peaks of the Rockies. Every once and a while, aviation gives you that rare glimpse of the perfection of the moment. It is at these times, in moonlit cockpit, cup of hot coffee in hand, temperature perfect when I glance over at my F/O who I know is thinking the same thing and say, "This is what it's all about."

....of course, some times it will scare the bejesus out of you.

Others have given you sound advice, mine would be to print out something which inspires you, keep it in your flight case, and glance at it when things aren't going so well in your quest. I carry the typical airline photo album of my family. When I get bored or lonely or down, one look at the wife and baby girl smiling is all I need.

Feel free to ask questions anytime. There is always time for a fellow aviator!!

 

[VNugget]

Lately, it seems that the overwhelming advice has been in favor of a non-aviation degree, and I can perfectly see your reasoning. However, the more I think about it, the more I am inclined to get just that -- an aviation degree. It's mostly because when push comes to shove, career-wise, 5 or 6 years from now, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that spending 3 and a half years in college learning about flying (and therefore having flying be the main mental focus in my life) might give me that little extra edge over a hypothetical person who's in exactly my situation right now, but goes on to get a non-flying degree and works on his/her ratings and such just on the side (of college AND a PT job).
And I'm not talking just about the title on the degree (you guys have confirmed that it doesn't matter), but rather the knowledge and experience that comes with it -- again, the "mental focus" thing.

There's no need to reiterate how tough and risky the times in aviation are right now, because I realize it. (Well, if you determine that I'm just talkin' da crazy-talk, maybe you do need to reiterate -- with a baseball bat.) But I'm willing to pay my dues and spend years, dacades if needed, working up the ladder. (Or as Maverick's CO would have it, "Flyin' a cargo plane fulla rubber dog sh!t outta Hong Kong!") I realize that the way things are now, I'll be doing the "starving CFI thing" for quite some time, but it'll be worth it to me. Again, I don't see myself doing anything else as a main way of living. Like many, I have been absolutely in love with flying from the days of being a little child, but it was just recently that I realized that hey -- it can actually happen, you can stop dreaming! This is America after all.

Little side note: The longer I spend without getting an FAA medical, the more irrationally paranoid I get. I wear glasses, but I can comfortably read normal-print books at a normal distance. I took the eye test for my California driver's license without my glasses and am not required to wear them while driving. I should expect a "20/20 with correction," no?

Little side note #2: I have another 3 or 4 years to go before becoming a US Citizen, and I have read here that I can't fly planes heavier than 12,500 pounds before that. What kinds of planes are that heavy, and how much should that slow me down, if at all?

Little side note #3: Turns out that SJSU Aviation advisers are completely booked, and I have to communicate with them through email. I was counting on meeting one personally and getting to share my full story, and develop a bit of a relationship so as to get my foot in the door, for all it counts -- after all, my grades (in high school AND in JC after that) have not been very stellar. By the way, I'm still looking forward to having lunch and talking things over with you, GuppyPuppy, and I'll contact you at the end of this week.

Again, thank you all for all the advice and support, (and good luck to those others of you in my shoes) and Merry Christmas.

-Vess

 

[bobbysamd]

Degree(s)

Here's a wild thought. Why not two degrees? Aeronautical Science and something else.

Just a thought . . . . .